Longterm Commitments

1. Deficit Reduction.
2. Energy Independence
3. Climate Change.
Step one: STOP STARTING WARS

In addition, we could stop policing the planet and bring home the troops we have permanently stationed in over 145 countries around the world. Tackle that little issue along with ridiculously crippling entitlements and we bring a little economic liberty back to the people.
 
The three greatest problems this country as well as many countries face is:
1. Deficit Reduction.
2. Energy Independence
3. Climate Change.

These three problems have one thing in common. They all require long-term solutions and commitments. None of these problems will be solved in a year or even a decade. They all require national and political commitment over a long period. With each power change in the presidency and the Congress, the party in power attempts to nullify the works of their predecessor or change direction. We have seen this in America’s attempt to become energy independent. Back in the 70’s when there was a gas shortage, America set it’s course toward energy independence with increased oil production and conservation measures. With political changes, the emphasis was no longer energy independence but increasing economic activity. Our reliance on foreign oil has grown from 37% in 1980 to 65% today. With each change in political power, our energy policies change.

Likewise our policy concerning the deficit changes with both political power and events of the time. Most sensible people know that you cannot eliminate the deficit in one year or 4 years. It will take a commitment of both parties and the people over a decade or more to stick to a plan. In the past, deficit reduction has always been short lived.

Solving the problems in climate change is probably the most difficult of all. Many disagree that man is the primary cause. There are even some that don’t even admit that the climate is changing. Then there are those who don't give damn what happens to world in 50 or a 100 years. Thus there is no real commitment to deal with any aspects of climate change, which would have to last indefinitely.

How do we solve problems that require a commitment that spans many years with changes in political power, attitudes, and events? If we are not able to do this, our future looks pretty dim.

Our number one long term issue is how we are going to care for our elderly. This is also the number one issue of every industrial nation in the world today. Japan's population is decreasing as the number of citizens over the age of 65 is increasing. This is beginning to happen in other countries as well. In the US, Republicans think we should just make them take care of themselves. If they can't, too bad. Maybe that is where we are headed. If nobody is willing to help foot the bill, then people will begin dying sooner, and our life expectancy will come back down, little by little.
 
How do you know it's "keeping them down"? How do you know employers won't take full advantage of them and give them $3, 4 or 5/ hour instead of the $7.25?

How do I know, because if an employee is WORTH $7.25 an hour and his employer offers him only $3, he is free to quit and work elsewhere. By taking another job at $7.25, he proves he is worth that hourly pay.

The problem is the folks that really are not worth $7.25 due their physical condition, mental capacity, inability to communicate, etc. While a business owner might be very willing to pay them a menial wage for menial work, he is forbidden to by law. The result? That weak, slow guy gets NO employment. How nice for him that you think you know what's best for other people!

On the other hand, restricting employment for the weak, slow and uneducated does force them on to the dole, which pretty much ensures they'll continue to vote to get their handouts. That seems like a really cruel way to build up a voter base to me.

Real example: When I was young I worked as a chef. We had a few young guys, a couple of homeless folks and an old, lonely retired gentleman come around wanting to do odd jobs on a regular basis. The owner would have loved to pay them a few bucks an hour plus a meal or two to wash a few windows, sweep the parking lot, wash the company van, etc. And, they were EAGER to work for that wage. However, she would of had to pay them minimum wage, which we simply could not afford for that kind of work. So instead, the full time dish washer did those other jobs after washing up the pots....or more often than not, the parking lot remained unswept and windows dirty. The end result? One guy employed at minimum wage instead of two or three guys employed at a wage that reflected what they brought to the job and more importantly, what they were WILLING to work for.

And you wonder why unemployment is so rampant among younger, older and less educated folks? There you go.

Contradict the logic in my argument if you can.
 
The three greatest problems this country as well as many countries face is:
1. Deficit Reduction.
2. Energy Independence
3. Climate Change.


#3 isn't a problem, it's a hoax.

#2 isn't a problem either, aside from jingoist morons who oppose trade of any kind
 
Prediction on the Conservative response:

1. Cut all service to nothing and lower taxes on the wealthy
2. Drill baby drill
3. What climate change?

You have it down pat Steelplate. That is what the right has to say about long term solutions.

But I have to say it really puzzles me that anyone would continue to push or believe that lowering taxes on the top 2 or 3 percent would lead to one job.

Makes me wish that Reagan could come back and explain why he raised taxes.


Well let me ask you a question: how many jobs do you think a guy creates if he only makes minimum wage? Or $50,000 or $100,000?

Even if a person is a billionaire there is no reason to believe they will ever create a job. And IMO it's just wishful thinking that they will. Go look at history and then tell me just when giving tax cuts to already rich people has created any jobs.

I can't use any links yet, but most people think that the 90's were prosperous and Clinton didn't see any need to cut taxes. The expiration of the tax cuts would only raise them to their 90's level. If they were doing fine then, do you really think that our rich would exit the country if their tax levels were brought back up to the 90's level?
 
Well then, get on your Corporate boys to loosen up some of that 2+ trillion dollars and hire people...

Oh, wait... that's right, they're playing games to see if they can make even more of the backs of the little people... Let's see, cut their services to the bone... lower the tax rate to nil, get rid of the minimum wage... maybe we can even squeeze banning overtime pay out of it!

The minimum wage keeps the least capable, the uneducated and the elderly from earning a living while driving up the retail prices of the goods and services those very people must pay to survive. What kind of monster would support that?

That's what Beck keeps telling you, isn't it?... Or is it the Heritage(Koch)Foundation?

Actually no that is what the Basic Laws of Economics, and supply and Demand of Labor. Should tell anyone with half a brain.
 
You have it down pat Steelplate. That is what the right has to say about long term solutions.

But I have to say it really puzzles me that anyone would continue to push or believe that lowering taxes on the top 2 or 3 percent would lead to one job.

Makes me wish that Reagan could come back and explain why he raised taxes.


Well let me ask you a question: how many jobs do you think a guy creates if he only makes minimum wage? Or $50,000 or $100,000?

Even if a person is a billionaire there is no reason to believe they will ever create a job. And IMO it's just wishful thinking that they will. Go look at history and then tell me just when giving tax cuts to already rich people has created any jobs.

I can't use any links yet, but most people think that the 90's were prosperous and Clinton didn't see any need to cut taxes. The expiration of the tax cuts would only raise them to their 90's level. If they were doing fine then, do you really think that our rich would exit the country if their tax levels were brought back up to the 90's level?

The Problem with your whole though process is that when Obama and the Dems talk about Tax Cuts for Millionaires and Billionaires. They are talking about a group of which only about 5% are Millionaires and Billionaires. The other 95% are people making just over 200grand, and couples making just over 250Grand a year. Many of whom own small businesses and employ people. Those are the people who will really be effected if Obama gets his way and raises Taxes on "Millionaires and Billionaires"
 
You have it down pat Steelplate. That is what the right has to say about long term solutions.

But I have to say it really puzzles me that anyone would continue to push or believe that lowering taxes on the top 2 or 3 percent would lead to one job.

Makes me wish that Reagan could come back and explain why he raised taxes.


Well let me ask you a question: how many jobs do you think a guy creates if he only makes minimum wage? Or $50,000 or $100,000?

Even if a person is a billionaire there is no reason to believe they will ever create a job. And IMO it's just wishful thinking that they will. Go look at history and then tell me just when giving tax cuts to already rich people has created any jobs.

I can't use any links yet, but most people think that the 90's were prosperous and Clinton didn't see any need to cut taxes. The expiration of the tax cuts would only raise them to their 90's level. If they were doing fine then, do you really think that our rich would exit the country if their tax levels were brought back up to the 90's level?


Most jobs are created by creatng a new business or expanding an existing one. Both of which require capital. Which is provided by rich people who are tryng to make more money by investing what they got now. It's not wishful thinking, it's capitalism 101.

One of two things happen when you raise taxes on the rich:

1. They hid it in a tax shelter somehow or stash it overseas where it does not help the US economy.
2. They don't hide it and pay more in taxes. Which means they have less money to invest. Why is it not obvious that less money to invest translates to less startup businesses and as a rsult fewer jobs?
 
Go look at history and then tell me just when giving tax cuts to already rich people has created any jobs.

I can give you a perfect example. When I worked in the real estate business with my father years ago, we considered building a retail complex in a then underutilized section of town. We ran the numbers over and over but just couldn't make it work. We shelved the project until such time as met with the city board of directors, who eventually agreed to a significant cut in property taxes for at least the first several years of the project. Guess what? The project them made sense and we invested...which created numerous jobs for architects, inspectors, construction workers and property managers, not the mention the scores of jobs created in the retail establishments and offices that eventually rented space in the project. Eventually we sold the project and recouped a reasonable profit. It still exists today...employing people.

So, there's a little real life history for you.
 
The three greatest problems this country as well as many countries face is:
1. Deficit Reduction.
2. Energy Independence
3. Climate Change.

.

Sorry, Sparky. Those aren't problems, with the exception of the deficit.

The three greatest problems are:
1) Deficit
2) Onerous regulations
3) War of fanatical Islam against the West.

The solutins are:
1) Quit spending so darned much
2) Quit regulating so darn much
3) Figure which side we are on and bring the war to the enemy.

If that sounds simplistic it's because it is. But Reagan's program was equally simplistic: The Soviets are evil and gov't tries to do too much.
 
Prediction on the Conservative response:

1. Cut all service to nothing and lower taxes on the wealthy
2. Drill baby drill
3. What climate change?

What?

No Liberal Response?

Oh, that's right, I forgot: No Reponse = The Liberal Response.

Lemme help:

1. Print more $$$
2. Spend more $$$
3. Repeat 1-2
 
1. Deficit Reduction.
2. Energy Independence
3. Climate Change.


these are items of long term rhetoric, the only real committment would be the captians of commerce leveraging legislation toward a $$$ in their back pocket via the fear factor they can sell Congress
 
How do you know it's "keeping them down"? How do you know employers won't take full advantage of them and give them $3, 4 or 5/ hour instead of the $7.25?

How do I know, because if an employee is WORTH $7.25 an hour and his employer offers him only $3, he is free to quit and work elsewhere. By taking another job at $7.25, he proves he is worth that hourly pay.

The problem is the folks that really are not worth $7.25 due their physical condition, mental capacity, inability to communicate, etc. While a business owner might be very willing to pay them a menial wage for menial work, he is forbidden to by law. The result? That weak, slow guy gets NO employment. How nice for him that you think you know what's best for other people!

On the other hand, restricting employment for the weak, slow and uneducated does force them on to the dole, which pretty much ensures they'll continue to vote to get their handouts. That seems like a really cruel way to build up a voter base to me.

Real example: When I was young I worked as a chef. We had a few young guys, a couple of homeless folks and an old, lonely retired gentleman come around wanting to do odd jobs on a regular basis. The owner would have loved to pay them a few bucks an hour plus a meal or two to wash a few windows, sweep the parking lot, wash the company van, etc. And, they were EAGER to work for that wage. However, she would of had to pay them minimum wage, which we simply could not afford for that kind of work. So instead, the full time dish washer did those other jobs after washing up the pots....or more often than not, the parking lot remained unswept and windows dirty. The end result? One guy employed at minimum wage instead of two or three guys employed at a wage that reflected what they brought to the job and more importantly, what they were WILLING to work for.

And you wonder why unemployment is so rampant among younger, older and less educated folks? There you go.

Contradict the logic in my argument if you can.

So I guess you cannot contradict my argument...crickets...I hear crickets...
 
Go look at history and then tell me just when giving tax cuts to already rich people has created any jobs.

I can give you a perfect example. When I worked in the real estate business with my father years ago, we considered building a retail complex in a then underutilized section of town. We ran the numbers over and over but just couldn't make it work. We shelved the project until such time as met with the city board of directors, who eventually agreed to a significant cut in property taxes for at least the first several years of the project. Guess what? The project them made sense and we invested...which created numerous jobs for architects, inspectors, construction workers and property managers, not the mention the scores of jobs created in the retail establishments and offices that eventually rented space in the project. Eventually we sold the project and recouped a reasonable profit. It still exists today...employing people.

So, there's a little real life history for you.

Oh come on Susan, we Capitalists can't wait for your brilliant retort here. I just may give up my businesses and join a union after what I'm sure will be your words of great wisdom. Surely you can contradict my one example real life example???
 
How do you know it's "keeping them down"? How do you know employers won't take full advantage of them and give them $3, 4 or 5/ hour instead of the $7.25?

How do I know, because if an employee is WORTH $7.25 an hour and his employer offers him only $3, he is free to quit and work elsewhere. By taking another job at $7.25, he proves he is worth that hourly pay.

The problem is the folks that really are not worth $7.25 due their physical condition, mental capacity, inability to communicate, etc. While a business owner might be very willing to pay them a menial wage for menial work, he is forbidden to by law. The result? That weak, slow guy gets NO employment. How nice for him that you think you know what's best for other people!

On the other hand, restricting employment for the weak, slow and uneducated does force them on to the dole, which pretty much ensures they'll continue to vote to get their handouts. That seems like a really cruel way to build up a voter base to me.

Real example: When I was young I worked as a chef. We had a few young guys, a couple of homeless folks and an old, lonely retired gentleman come around wanting to do odd jobs on a regular basis. The owner would have loved to pay them a few bucks an hour plus a meal or two to wash a few windows, sweep the parking lot, wash the company van, etc. And, they were EAGER to work for that wage. However, she would of had to pay them minimum wage, which we simply could not afford for that kind of work. So instead, the full time dish washer did those other jobs after washing up the pots....or more often than not, the parking lot remained unswept and windows dirty. The end result? One guy employed at minimum wage instead of two or three guys employed at a wage that reflected what they brought to the job and more importantly, what they were WILLING to work for.

And you wonder why unemployment is so rampant among younger, older and less educated folks? There you go.

Contradict the logic in my argument if you can.

So I guess you cannot contradict my argument...crickets...I hear crickets...

You're dealing with someone who thinks "wealth" is all the currency printed by governments.
The mindset that workers are simply stupid droids with an inability to decide what is in their interest is the bedrock of liberalism and the union movement.
The truth is that workers don't need unions, except if they are incompetent. Good workers are well worth whatever management pays them. Bad workers need protection.
 
How do you know it's "keeping them down"? How do you know employers won't take full advantage of them and give them $3, 4 or 5/ hour instead of the $7.25?

How do I know, because if an employee is WORTH $7.25 an hour and his employer offers him only $3, he is free to quit and work elsewhere. By taking another job at $7.25, he proves he is worth that hourly pay.

The problem is the folks that really are not worth $7.25 due their physical condition, mental capacity, inability to communicate, etc. While a business owner might be very willing to pay them a menial wage for menial work, he is forbidden to by law. The result? That weak, slow guy gets NO employment. How nice for him that you think you know what's best for other people!

On the other hand, restricting employment for the weak, slow and uneducated does force them on to the dole, which pretty much ensures they'll continue to vote to get their handouts. That seems like a really cruel way to build up a voter base to me.

Real example: When I was young I worked as a chef. We had a few young guys, a couple of homeless folks and an old, lonely retired gentleman come around wanting to do odd jobs on a regular basis. The owner would have loved to pay them a few bucks an hour plus a meal or two to wash a few windows, sweep the parking lot, wash the company van, etc. And, they were EAGER to work for that wage. However, she would of had to pay them minimum wage, which we simply could not afford for that kind of work. So instead, the full time dish washer did those other jobs after washing up the pots....or more often than not, the parking lot remained unswept and windows dirty. The end result? One guy employed at minimum wage instead of two or three guys employed at a wage that reflected what they brought to the job and more importantly, what they were WILLING to work for.

And you wonder why unemployment is so rampant among younger, older and less educated folks? There you go.

Contradict the logic in my argument if you can.
In a free labor market, there would be no minimum wage, no wage and hour laws, no unemployment compensation, no child labor laws, and no labor unions. The cost of labor would be determined strictly by supply and demand just like commodities. When there was a glut of potatoes on the market, potatoes would rot in fields and when there was an oversupply of labor, a similar fate awaited workers. A long time ago, Americans decide that was not the kind of society they wanted, so today we have laws that protect workers.

The minimum wage law is probably the most controversial of all the labor laws. Many think we should do away with minimum wage allowing a more free market for labor. The current federal minimum wage is $7.25/hr, higher is some states. That’s about $15,000 for 40hr/wk full time employees, just over the limit for food stamps and other public assistance. So let’s say we eliminate minimum wage. In tough economic times such as these, salaries scales would be lowered reducing cost to employers. However, the lower salaries would mean the government would be paying out more in food stamps and other government assistance to the poor. In effect, costs would transfer from the employer to the government.

There is always hot debate on raising the minimum wage. Opponents point out that an increase in minimum wage will result in higher unemployment. There is grain of truth in this, but just a grain. Over the last 20 years, minimum wage has increased just enough to keep up with inflation at 3%. Most employers don’t layoff employees because of a modest increase in minimum wage. Some businesses will absorb the cost through yearly cost of living increases, others may convert some employees to part time work, but most will absorb the cost. Usually an increase in minimum wage results in little or no increase in unemployment.
 
Except that isn't the normal working of markets. It isn't feast or famine but something in between.
And with that scenario many more people would have jobs instead of being serfs of Big Daddy Government.
 
A long time ago, Americans decide that was not the kind of society they wanted, so today we have laws that protect workers.

In effect, costs would transfer from the employer to the government.

Usually an increase in minimum wage results in little or no increase in unemployment.

Americans didn't decide that, Progressives did. We tried the Great Society experiment and like all others, we've run out of other people's money. Time to try freedom and liberty from government meddling.

The cost would only transfer to the government if we continue to support the transfer to wealth to recipients. That too will come to an end, either through the ballot box or by bankruptcy. I choose the former.

An increase in minimum wage usually does not increase unemployment much because those workers whose labor is not worth minimum wage are ALREADY unemployed and/or on the dole. Get rid of the minimum wage and handouts that prevent the poor from even trying to thrive and watch employment among the uneducated and unskilled workers skyrocket.
 
A long time ago, Americans decide that was not the kind of society they wanted, so today we have laws that protect workers.

In effect, costs would transfer from the employer to the government.

Usually an increase in minimum wage results in little or no increase in unemployment.

Americans didn't decide that, Progressives did. We tried the Great Society experiment and like all others, we've run out of other people's money. Time to try freedom and liberty from government meddling.

The cost would only transfer to the government if we continue to support the transfer to wealth to recipients. That too will come to an end, either through the ballot box or by bankruptcy. I choose the former.

An increase in minimum wage usually does not increase unemployment much because those workers whose labor is not worth minimum wage are ALREADY unemployed and/or on the dole. Get rid of the minimum wage and handouts that prevent the poor from even trying to thrive and watch employment among the uneducated and unskilled workers skyrocket.
No, the American labor movement was not some left wing progressive movement hatched out of LBJ’s Great Society. It began over a hundred years ago. The Clayton Act and Railway Labor Act, both passed under a Republican Congress and a Republican president, contained protection for American labor and collective bargaining. Both Republicans and Democrats passed child labor laws in many states beginning in 1800’s culminating in the Fair labor standards act, which outlawed child labor, established the federal minimum wage and the 40-hour workweek. By 1949 every state had passed workman compensation laws, unemployment compensation, as well as wage and hour laws.

Employment among the uneducated and unskilled workers will never skyrocket. The demand for unskilled and uneducated workers has been falling since the mid 20th century. If you’re a ditch digger, you better be skilled at driving a backhoe and other earth moving equipment if you want a job that will a put roof over your head and food on the table.
 
How do you know it's "keeping them down"? How do you know employers won't take full advantage of them and give them $3, 4 or 5/ hour instead of the $7.25?

How do I know, because if an employee is WORTH $7.25 an hour and his employer offers him only $3, he is free to quit and work elsewhere. By taking another job at $7.25, he proves he is worth that hourly pay.

The problem is the folks that really are not worth $7.25 due their physical condition, mental capacity, inability to communicate, etc. While a business owner might be very willing to pay them a menial wage for menial work, he is forbidden to by law. The result? That weak, slow guy gets NO employment. How nice for him that you think you know what's best for other people!

On the other hand, restricting employment for the weak, slow and uneducated does force them on to the dole, which pretty much ensures they'll continue to vote to get their handouts. That seems like a really cruel way to build up a voter base to me.

Real example: When I was young I worked as a chef. We had a few young guys, a couple of homeless folks and an old, lonely retired gentleman come around wanting to do odd jobs on a regular basis. The owner would have loved to pay them a few bucks an hour plus a meal or two to wash a few windows, sweep the parking lot, wash the company van, etc. And, they were EAGER to work for that wage. However, she would of had to pay them minimum wage, which we simply could not afford for that kind of work. So instead, the full time dish washer did those other jobs after washing up the pots....or more often than not, the parking lot remained unswept and windows dirty. The end result? One guy employed at minimum wage instead of two or three guys employed at a wage that reflected what they brought to the job and more importantly, what they were WILLING to work for.

And you wonder why unemployment is so rampant among younger, older and less educated folks? There you go.

Contradict the logic in my argument if you can.

So I guess you cannot contradict my argument...crickets...I hear crickets...

Sorry... I do have a life outside of the Message Board... I was cleaning out my Garage of my $200k home that you think I am jealous of other people for.

Let me ask you... in this AMERICAN Economy.. who isn't worth $7.25/hr?

Is that the America you want to see? where Families and extended families live under one roof to make ends meet so that the wealthiest among us can afford another yacht or Lear jet?

IF that is the America you are proposing... good luck with that, because I will fight to the death to prevent it.
 

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