Lies about our national debt, W, Clinton and Reagan (its just accurate information)

Discussion in 'Politics' started by JRK, Mar 25, 2011.

  1. JRK
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    JRK Senior Member

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    I am so sick and tired of hearing about the debt and how Clinton did such a great job and GWB/Reagan did such a bad job
    the truth is Clinton reaped allot of the reward Reagan
    its also true Clinton added to the national debt
    The Myth of the Clinton Surplus
    so did GWB

    all about the same and less than BHO added in 2 years

    The Bush Deficit, the Clinton Surplus and TARP by Gregory Hilton | The DC World Affairs Blog


    Critics of President Reagan's budget deficits should answer one simple question: Would you trade the collapse of communism, your smaller tax burden, some of your income -- and possibly your job -- in exchange for eliminating that $2.1 trillion in added debt?

    Coverage of President Reagan's legacy has been generally fair, with one exception. Many say, "Reagan masterfully won the cold war … but those budget deficits." Or "America needed Reagan's infectious optimism … but those budget deficits."

    Not all debt is bad. Mortgage debt and student loan debt are worthy investments. No one criticizes President Franklin Roosevelt for the massive debt that financed World War II. Yet the commentators criticizing President Reagan for the $2.1 trillion in added debt (all numbers are in today's dollars) ignore how that debt won the Cold War, lowered the tax burden, and ignited the largest economic boom in American history.

    Those who denounce the Reagan deficits should answer the following questions:

    Would you bring back the Soviet empire? President Reagan spent $3 trillion on defense, well above the $2.2 trillion baseline. What did that extra $800 billion buy? The end of the Cold War -- saving, perhaps, a billion lives from nuclear extinction.

    No less than former Soviet Union Foreign Minister Alexander Bessmertnykh has been quoted crediting President Reagan's defense buildup for the accelerated collapse of the Soviet Union. The fragile communist economy, already stretched thin by substantial defense spending, could not keep up with America's defense buildup. The possibility of American missile defense, and President Reagan's powerful rhetoric, further persuaded the Soviets they could not win the Cold War, and induced the reforms that culminated in the collapse of the Soviet empire -- without America firing a single shot. It was the best $800 billion investment America ever made.

    Would you raise the top income-tax rate back to 70 percent? Commentators also blame the 1980s deficits on President Reagan's insistence on reducing taxes in 1981. Yet President Reagan inherited the worst economy since the Great Depression. Excessively high tax rates were discouraging work and investment and therefore damaging the economy while raising little revenue. President Reagan removed barriers to entrepreneurship by reducing tax rates, cutting red tape, and stabilizing the economy, thereby encouraging risk takers. The centerpiece of this policy was a radical series of across-the-board tax cuts that lowered the top income tax rate from 70 percent to 50 percent, and eventually to 28 percent. (It stands at 35 percent today.)

    This tax relief unleashed a 20-year surge of entrepreneurship, as the U.S. economy tripled in size. The lasting impact of these policies can be seen in successive presidents, who ratified Reaganomics by refusing to even consider raising taxes back to their 1970s levels. Thus, America continues to benefit from lower tax rates.

    Would you trade 2.8 million jobs? Before the Reagan tax relief, the unemployment rate averaged 7.7 percent. Since the tax cuts, it has averaged 5.8 percent -- a difference that translates into 2.8 million jobs per year.

    Would you trade $15,000 of your annual income? In the two decades before the Reagan tax relief, the average household's annual disposable income increased $13,000. In the 20 years following Reagan's tax cuts, these incomes surged $28,000.

    Would you trade the stock market boom? In the two decades before the Reagan tax relief, the S&P 500 increased 120 percent. In the 20 years following Reagan's tax cuts, the market jumped 575 percent.

    And don't forget the 12 percent inflation rate and 21 percent interest rates that Reaganomics slew.

    The Reagan tax cuts replaced the deepest recession since the Great Depression with the largest 20-year boom in American history. Tax revenues actually grew faster in the low-tax 1980s than in the high-tax 1970s, and rising incomes meant the share of taxes paid by the wealthy actually increased throughout the 1980s. Millions of people who had entered the 1980s in the lowest income quintile surged to the highest income quintile by 1990.

    All a coincidence? As Reagan would say, "there you go again."

    Sure, President Reagan would have preferred to minimize the deficits by eliminating wasteful spending. However, the only way to persuade a Democratic Congress to accept a defense buildup and pro-growth tax cuts was to agree to their domestic spending demands.

    Ironically, the 1980s budget deficits made the 1990s surpluses possible. The budget was balanced by surging tax revenues from a booming, low-tax economy and defense savings brought on by the end of the Cold War.

    To paraphrase a classic President Reagan line: Are you better off today than you were in 1980?
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  2. Dr.Drock
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    Dr.Drock Senior Member

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    Is the average middle class income american better off today than in 1980? or '84? or '88?


    That question would be a fun one to hear the answers.

    To hell with both status quo, middle class destroying political parties.
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  3. JRK
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    JRK Senior Member

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    The middle class bring home pay is the best its ever been thanks to Ws tax rates. and if you take UE avg of 5% from the mid 80s till 2009 I am unsure how anyone can say that Regan's policies created the largest transfer of wealth
    The hi end tax rate went from 39% to 35% (basically). So how hard would it be for the "rich" to increase the amount of wealth they have?

    I mean if I get to keep 4% more wealth every year and I make 250,000 per year, thats 10,000.00
    the Liberal media have wrote 1000s of columns calling that a transfer of wealth
  4. Dr.Drock
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    Dr.Drock Senior Member

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    The Fed has a lot more to do with the economy and fiscal livelihood of the american middle and lower classes than government does.

    Like I said both our status quo parties are pure garbage but the printing press and credit creation of the fed manipulating the money supply it's what's leading to or has already caused our doom financially.

    A 5% tax cut here and there coinciding with government wildy increasing spending and and credit creation and the printing press running at all time highs is essentially a waste of time.
  5. kiwiman127
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    kiwiman127 Comfortably Moderate Supporting Member

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    I guess I have to post this again. I'm sorry I have to do this but some people live in such a fantasy world.

    REAL WAGES
    1964-2004
    Average Weekly Earnings (in 1982 constant dollars)
    For all private nonfarm workers
    Year Real $ Change
    1964 302.52
    1965 310.46 2.62%
    1966 312.83 0.76%
    1967 311.30 -0.49%
    1968 315.37 1.31%
    1969 316.93 0.49%
    1970 312.94 -1.26%
    1971 318.05 1.63%
    1972 331.59 4.26%
    1973 331.39 -0.06%
    1974 314.94 -4.96%
    1975 305.16 -3.11%
    1976 309.61 1.46%
    1977 310.99 0.45%
    1978 310.41 -0.19%
    1979 298.87 -3.72%
    1980 281.27 -5.89%
    1981 277.35 -1.39%
    1982 272.74 -1.66%
    1983 277.50 1.75%
    1984 279.22 0.62%
    1985 276.23 -1.07%
    1986 276.11 -0.04%
    1987 272.88 -1.17%
    1988 270.32 -0.94%
    1989 267.27 -1.13%
    1990 262.43 -1.81%
    1991 258.34 -1.56%
    1992 257.95 -0.15%
    1993 258.12 0.07%
    1994 259.97 0.72%
    1995 258.43 -0.59%
    1996 259.58 0.44%
    1997 265.22 2.17%
    1998 271.87 2.51%
    1999 274.64 1.02%
    2000 275.62 0.36%
    2001 275.38 -0.09%
    2002 278.91 1.28%
    2003 279.94 0.37%
    2004 277.57 -0.84%



    Source: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

    http://www.workinglife.org/wiki/Wages and Benefits: Real Wages (1964-2004)
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  6. NYcarbineer
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    NYcarbineer Gold Member

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    Reagan made the country prosper by pumping a couple trillion dollars worth of borrowed stimulus into it.

    Clinton paid the bills, and let the country's prosperity take care of itself.
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  7. JRK
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    JRK Senior Member

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    To start with your link is no good
    I have no idea what your trying to say
    are you saying during the worst inflation we have ever had in our countries history that people made more money than we did during the same time when gas was not much different than it was in 2008 at the end of Ws term and inflation was 18%
    That people where making more per week when we had no inflation?
    What the hell is this information mean?
    with respect you act like that information means something
    Do i understand that in 1978 with inflation @ 18% I would make 310.00 and in 2004 with inflation @ < 3% I would make 277.00?
    HUH?
    thats 50.00 SWING THERE
    As Jimmy Carter stepped before the television cameras in the East Room of the White House last Friday, his task was not just to proclaim another new anti-inflation program but to calm a national alarm that had begun to border on panic. Inflation and interest rates, both topping 18%, are so far beyond anything that Americans have experienced in peacetime—and so far beyond anything that U.S. financial markets are set up to handle—as to inspire a contagion of fear. Usually confident businessmen and bankers have begun talking of Latin American-style hyperinflation, financial collapse, major bankruptcies, a drastic drop in the American standard of living.


    Read more: Jimmy Carter vs. Inflation - TIME


    Now in addition my tax rate from 2001 to 2004 allowed me to bring home about 4,000 more a year
    in my pocket
    now that was on a 65,000 year vs about a 70,000

    My friend that information you have provided is worthless
    there is no truth to it I do not care where you got it and more than that I would like to know what its suppose to mean
  8. JRK
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    JRK Senior Member

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    Really?

    Clinton had the same deficit in 8 years that

    The government can have a surplus even if it has trillions in debt, but it cannot have a surplus if that debt increased every year. This article is about surplus/deficit, not the debt. However, it analyzes the debt to prove there wasn't a surplus under Clinton.

    For those that want a more detailed explanation of why a claimed $236 billion surplus resulted in the national debt increasing by $18 billion, please read this follow-up article.


    Time and time again, anyone reading the mainstream news or reading articles on the Internet will read the claim that President Clinton not only balanced the budget, but had a surplus. This is then used as an argument to further highlight the fiscal irresponsibility of the federal government under the Bush administration.

    The claim is generally made that Clinton had a surplus of $69 billion in FY1998, $123 billion in FY1999 and $230 billion in FY2000 . In that same link, Clinton claimed that the national debt had been reduced by $360 billion in the last three years, presumably FY1998, FY1999, and FY2000--though, interestingly, $360 billion is not the sum of the alleged surpluses of the three years in question ($69B + $123B + $230B = $422B, not $360B).

    While not defending the increase of the federal debt under President Bush, it's curious to see Clinton's record promoted as having generated a surplus. It never happened. There was never a surplus and the facts support that position. In fact, far from a $360 billion reduction in the national debt in FY1998-FY2000, there was an increase of $281 billion.

    Verifying this is as simple as accessing the U.S. Treasury (see note about this link below) website where the national debt is updated daily and a history of the debt since January 1993 can be obtained. Considering the government's fiscal year ends on the last day of September each year, and considering Clinton's budget proposal in 1993 took effect in October 1993 and concluded September 1994 (FY1994), here's the national debt at the end of each year of Clinton Budgets:

    Fiscal
    Year Year
    Ending National Debt Deficit
    FY1993 09/30/1993 $4.411488 trillion
    FY1994 09/30/1994 $4.692749 trillion $281.26 billion
    FY1995 09/29/1995 $4.973982 trillion $281.23 billion
    FY1996 09/30/1996 $5.224810 trillion $250.83 billion
    FY1997 09/30/1997 $5.413146 trillion $188.34 billion
    FY1998 09/30/1998 $5.526193 trillion $113.05 billion
    FY1999 09/30/1999 $5.656270 trillion $130.08 billion
    FY2000 09/29/2000 $5.674178 trillion $17.91 billion
    FY2001 09/28/2001 $5.807463 trillion $133.29 billion

    the late 1990s, the government was running what it -- and a largely unquestioning Washington press corps -- called budget "surpluses." But the national debt still increased in every single one of those years because the government was borrowing money to create the "surpluses."
    So the table itself, according to the figures issued yesterday, showed the Federal Government ran a surplus. Absolutely false. This reporter ought to do his work. This crowd never has asked for or kept up with or checked the facts. Eric Planin--all he has to do is not spread rumors or get into the political message. Both Democrats and Republicans are all running this year and next and saying surplus, surplus. Look what we have done. It is false. The actual figures show that from the beginning of the fiscal year until now we had to borrow $127,800,000,000. - Democratic Senator Ernest Hollings, October 28, 1999
    An overall "downsizing" of government and a virtual end to the arms race have contributed to the surplus, but the vast majority is coming from excess Social Security taxes being paid by the workforce in an attempt to keep Social Security benefit checks coming once the "baby-boomers" start to retire.
    Of the $142 billion surplus projected by the end of 2000, $137 billion will come from excess Social Security taxes.
    When these unified budget numbers are separated into Social Security and non-Social Security components, however, it becomes evident that all of the projected surplus throughout this period is attributable to Social Security. The remainder of the budget will remain in deficit throughout the next decade.
    Despite a revenue shortfall, full benefits are expected to be paid out between 2017 and 2041. The system will draw on its trust fund, a collection of special-issue bonds from the government, which borrowed prodigiously from the program's surplus over the years. But since the country is already running a deficit, the government will have to borrow more money to pay back its debt to Social Security. That's a little like giving with one hand and taking away with the other.
    The surplus deception is clearly discernible in the statistics of national debt. While the spenders are boasting about surpluses, the national debt is rising year after year. In 1998, the first year of the legerdemain surplus, it rose from $5.413 trillion to $5.526 trillion, due to a deficit of $112.9 billion... The federal government spends Social Security money and other trust funds which constitute obligations to present and future recipients. It consumes them and thereby incurs obligations as binding as those to the owners of savings bonds. Yet, the Treasury treats them as revenue and hails them for generating surpluses. If a private banker were to treat trust fund deposits as income and profit, he would face criminal charges.
  9. Truthmatters
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    Truthmatters BANNED

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    I bet every damned American would pick the Clinton economy over what Bush sat and watched happen to our country.
  10. kiwiman127
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    kiwiman127 Comfortably Moderate Supporting Member

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    Hmm,,,? I see the link doesn't work now as I went there a did a copy & paste,,,maybe later. I see, I didn't copy the entire address.
    What I was trying to say is, in fact wages have not gone up in "real dollars" since the 1980and that's despite excellent worker productivity and good overall profits. So it's pretty hard to be better off now than you were in 1980. Also, the tax cuts to corporations, the wealthy and with Capital Gains/Dividends did not make the lives of the middle class any better at all. In fact, the middle class has lost wealth while the top percentage has gained wealth.
    The source of the numbers is the Department of Labor via the Bush Administration.
    Try this: http://www.workinglife.org/wiki/Wages and Benefits: Real Wages (1964-2004)
    EDIT: Copy and past the link to Google's "all these words" or go to this link:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Real_Wages_1964-2004.gif

    It's the same story,,,working class wages have not improved and life for the working class has gotten worse.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2011
  11. Mr. Peepers
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    Mr. Peepers Senior Member

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    So, I'm gonna go ahead and call a massive BULLSHIT here.

    THIS is what "trickle down", deregulation of the banking industry and the "conservative" corporatism disaster has wrought:

    News Headlines

    But we have a whole bunch of new millionaires, so all is good, right?
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2011
  12. Mr Clean
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    Mr Clean Silver Member

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    Every American with a brain in their head would.


    The rest of them were more concerned about him getting a BJ in the White House.
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  13. JRK
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    JRK Senior Member

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    There is no better example of the type of spam that got Obama elected and made GWB out to be what many see him as
    Your table makes claim that the average pay in 1978 in a 40 hour week was $7.75 an hour and that in 2004 it was 6.92 an hour?
    Cater had the 18% inflation?
    so what ever this thing is trying to say then its Carters fault we are where we are?
    Dude this is information that makes no sense
    what was minimum wage in 2004?
    a car in 2004 being bought with a 14,404 annual salary?
    and why is it I am not a millionaire by making 310.00 a week the year I get out of high school?
  14. JRK
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    JRK Senior Member

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    why would people choose Clinton's over Ws?
    what did W sit and watch happen?
  15. JRK
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    JRK Senior Member

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    My friend we have added 40 million jobs to our economy sense 1978
    that information your using cannot be accurate
    Jimmy Carter had an 18% inflation rate in 1978 and your claim is I would have made 10% more?
    I would have to make 28% more
    And if the value of the dollar is the reason then would not that one year be the biggest impact?

    There is no way any-one can claim that the average Joe/Jane made 10% more as a middle class worker in 1977 than he did in 2004
    no way

    you have 40 million more people working in 2004 than you did in 1978

    Women?
    part time jobs?
    Legal aliens?

    Thats pure spam
  16. JRK
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    JRK Senior Member

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    bullshit?
    bullshit?
    more millionaires because they keep more of there wealth
    De regulation in the banking industry was in 1998 "Mr Bull Shit"
    Glass

    Clinton repeal of Glass-Steagall faulty as seen today
    Written on March 17th, 2008 in Government Positions


    This is just one of our articles referencing the financial crisis, crash of the housing market, subprime, and more:


    Even as the Fed helped to stabilize the situation over the weekend, the stock market is down again on Monday morning. What is alarming from our standpoint is that CIT, Lehman, and National City Corporation all are down – by 25 to 31 percent as we write this. Liquidity questions surround Lehman after what we learned from Bear Sterns. Even JPMorgan needed help and considerations from the Fed to buy Bear Sterns for a reported $2 a share.

    This issue now goes far beyond the mortgage blues of some lenders. There is no way that crazy wild-eyed mortgage brokers with lax standards could cause worldwide problems like this. President Bill Clinton repealed the Glass-Steagall Act which had prevented the coupling of investment banking and lending. To be exact, on November 12, 1999, President Bill Clinton signed into law the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which repealed the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933. One of the effects of the repeal is it allowed commercial and investment banks to consolidate. Economists have criticized the action.

    WHAT DE REGULATION DID GWB DO? IF YOUR GOING TO VOTE DO SOME FUCKING HOME WORK PLEASE
  17. kiwiman127
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    kiwiman127 Comfortably Moderate Supporting Member

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    "My friend we have added 40 million jobs to our economy sense 1978
    that information your using cannot be accurate"

    It's straight from the Department of Labor.
    I'll tell you what, why not produce something that reflects the opposite to what The Dept of Labor is saying?
  18. Sallow
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    Sallow The Big Bad Wolf. Supporting Member

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    Well yeah.

    But the ability of the Conservative to recognize how math works..is very limited.

    Think of it like faith. They have "faith" in the "invisible" hand of the deregulated "free" markets.
  19. JRK
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    JRK Senior Member

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    I did
    its called common sense
    You ask for it

    Income Inequality: How Census Data Misrepresent Income Distribution
    Published on September 29, 1999 by Rea Hederman, Jr. and Robert Rector CENTER FOR DATA ANALYSIS REPORT #99-07

    Edit by Moderator: Please remember the copyright rules. NO posting of entire articles or even a large part of them, (one or two paragraphs is good) and source must be linked. Thx.


    olitical debate on income in the United States often has been characterized as competition between two schools of economic thought: one that focuses on the long-term increase in general prosperity and one that focuses on the equalization of existing incomes. Proponents of the first approach have much to hearten them; the long-term increase in economic well-being in the United States has been enormous. Today, the standard of living for the average American is nearly seven times higher than it was 100 years ago, after adjusting for inflation.2 The large gains in prosperity have affected all Americans, including low-income groups. At present, workers earning the minimum wage comprise the lowest-paid 2 percent of all employees. Yet today's minimum wage worker earns more, in real terms, in a single day than a low-skilled worker earned in an entire six-day workweek at the turn of the century. In other words, today's minimum wage worker earns more in eight hours than a low-skilled worker earned in 70 or more hours a century ago.3
    Despite this long-term improvement in living conditions, interest in the alternative approach focusing on the redistribution of incomes remains strong. Indeed, the drive to create greater economic and income equality between the apparent haves and have nots has been an enduring theme in the political realm of the 20th century. For example, the desire to level incomes was an important but deliberately unstated goal behind Lyndon Johnson's launch of the War on Poverty.4 Since its initiation in the mid-1960s, U.S. taxpayers have spent $7.9 trillion on federal welfare programs, often with lamentable social side effects. Nonetheless, the pressure toward equalizing incomes continues unabated, and the issues of economic equality are intertwined with many other public policy debates.
    When considering questions of economic equality, policymakers should seek the following:
    A clear understanding of the existing level of income equality in society, and
    An appreciation of the social and economic forces that contribute to the existing inequality.
    With these issues in mind, this report analyzes the existing distribution of income in the United States. The term "income" refers to new revenues and economic resources received by individuals and families during the course of a year. The distribution of annual income is thus distinct from the distribution of wealth, which refers to economic assets saved from prior years.
    http://blog.heritage.org/2010/10/29/inequality-statistics-and-poverty-facts/
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2011
  20. Sallow
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    Sallow The Big Bad Wolf. Supporting Member

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    Bush could have easily reinstated Glass-Steagall.

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