Lets just say...

[Hagbard Celine]

So you are for vouchers? Closing private schools? How would you see the government, state or federal, improving public schools? There is plenty of research that could improve public schools if implemented, but the education community does not like what the findings are.

Yeah, teachers bitch and moan when they are held responsible for producing students who actually learned something from them. Teachers should have to take ongoing training to stay up to date in their fields and they should not be able to earn tenure until they have proven their effectiveness so that they cannot rest on their laurels while they shuffle hordes of ignorant students through their classes un-noticed. I'm not convinced that "benchmark" standardized tests are the way to test teacher effectiveness as in the "no child left behind" plan. I don't think it'll work and I don't think standardized tests are a good test of knowledge or intelligence. Higher standards for teachers equals better teachers equals better students. Maybe teacher salaries should be raised.

 

[Annie]

Yeah, teachers bitch and moan when they are held responsible for producing students who actually learned something from them. Teachers should have to take ongoing training to stay up to date in their fields and they should not be able to earn tenure until they have proven their effectiveness so that they cannot rest on their laurels while they shuffle hordes of ignorant students through their classes un-noticed. I'm not convinced that "benchmark" standardized tests are the way to test teacher effectiveness as in the "no child left behind" plan. I don't think it'll work and I don't think standardized tests are a good test of knowledge or intelligence. Higher standards for teachers equals better teachers equals better students. Maybe teacher salaries should be raised.

I think most public school teachers salaries are ok. I know of few teachers who do not keep 'updating' their education. I have. Education academia is the problem-universities.

The standards are not the problem, in actuality, they are probably part of the correct way to go.

 

[Avatar4321]

I dont think Im a socialist, I just believe in fairness and we all know that some guy at the top is doing very little work and getting big bucks.

You really don't understand what it takes to run a company do you? or the risks involved?

 

[Hagbard Celine]

The standards are not the problem, in actuality, they are probably part of the correct way to go.

That's what I said. There should be standards of learning that students should be expected to reach and I think teachers should be held responsible for making sure their students learn the material. But I think that standardized tests are the wrong way to test everyone. They aren't an accurate way of testing everyone. And the program is called "NO child left behind."

 

[Annie]

That's what I said. There should be standards of learning that students should be expected to reach and I think teachers should be held responsible for making sure their students learn the material. But I think that standardized tests are the wrong way to test everyone. They aren't an accurate way of testing everyone. And the program is called "NO child left behind."

Standardized tests per se are not the problem either, but expecting the public schools to have a child on a respirator, with cerbral palsy and heart problems to be hitting the standards is wrong. So too the Down's syndrome child, but such is the dilemma created by IDEA legislation-thank the feds for that one.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Standardized tests per se are not the problem either, but expecting the public schools to have a child on a respirator, with cerbral palsy and heart problems to be hitting the standards is wrong. So too the Down's syndrome child, but such is the dilemma created by IDEA legislation-thank the feds for that one.

I don't believe that special-ed kids are being held to the same standards as the normal ones. You've got to be kidding me. That's got to be just some bureaucratic paperwork mistake if it's true.

How would you make education better? I might have better suggestions if it weren't so late.

 

[Annie]

I don't believe that special-ed kids are being held to the same standards as the normal ones. You've got to be kidding me. That's got to be just some bureaucratic paperwork mistake if it's true.

Yep, it's true. They are tested by standardized tests just like the 'normal' kids-bd kids too-even if they rip up the tests. No joke.

If a school has a more than average special ed kids, which inner city schools inevitably do, their scores look worse than they are. Which is good for funding, but bad for reputation. Now it can also result in closing of certain schools. Please, save me from governmental do gooders.

 

[Mr. P]

IMO the solution is simple.

1. Dissolve the Department of Education
2. Tell the NEA where to stick it
3. Eliminate all the liberal teaching methods (Teams, pass/fail)
4. Allow disruptive kids to be removed within 2 weeks, not months
5. Remove incompetent teachers (Not possible with the NEA in place)
6. AND maybe the most important, Return to teaching the 3Rs, expect and demand performance

I guess this means go back to what worked cuz this system sure isn’t.

 

[Nienna]

I dont think Im a socialist, I just believe in fairness and we all know that some guy at the top is doing very little work and getting big bucks.

Are you talking about fairness of opportunity or fairness of outcome? The world is inherently unfair. People have different talents and abilities. Some of these are more valuable in a fiduciary sense. Why shouldn't those who are smarter, have worked harder, and who have more responsibility make more money? This is "fairness of opportunity." Everyone has the same chance to succeed. Those who have more talent win.

"Fairness of outcome" is a different thing. With this kind of thinking, those who are smarter, more talented, or who shoulder more responsibility make the same as those less gifted or more lazy. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" is a fantasy. It breeds laziness. Why should the brighter people try to the best of their abilities? Their efforts will not be rewarded. And it is unfair. Although the end salaries would be similar, it is taking away the opportunity of the more talented person to shine.

I'm not saying that those less fortunate should not receive help. The right and good thing to do is for those who have more to give more. But this is something that cannot be legislated without repressing the best and the brightest. No matter what, we cannot control the human heart with mere laws. Morality must be a free choice.

 

[Nienna]

That's what I said. There should be standards of learning that students should be expected to reach and I think teachers should be held responsible for making sure their students learn the material. But I think that standardized tests are the wrong way to test everyone. They aren't an accurate way of testing everyone. And the program is called "NO child left behind."

I see this attitude as a big part of the problem with education today. Education is viewed as a right not a privelege. Even if a kid comes to class with no interest in improving his mind, with surly and disruptive behavior, with mental disabilities, it is still the responsibility of the teacher to somehow pound knowlege into his diamond-hard head. Thomas Aquinas had something to say about this to the effect of "you cannot expect responsibility where there is no power." The improvement of our educational system begins in the individual and with that individual's parents.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

IMO the solution is simple.

1. Dissolve the Department of Education
2. Tell the NEA where to stick it
3. Eliminate all the liberal teaching methods (Teams, pass/fail)
4. Allow disruptive kids to be removed within 2 weeks, not months
5. Remove incompetent teachers (Not possible with the NEA in place)
6. AND maybe the most important, Return to teaching the 3Rs, expect and demand performance

I guess this means go back to what worked cuz this system sure isn’t.

What's the matter with teams?

 

[Annie]

What's the matter with teams?

That was the only thing I didn't agree with also. It makes sense to combine reading and social studies, especially in the middle and high schools. Math and science also go nicely. Oftentimes, science and reading can also be combined.

 

[Mr. P]

What's the matter with teams?

Teams do nothing for the weak or average student, they are merely carried by the “Team”, thus creating the false sense of accomplishment, and re-enforcing the socialist type society of dependence on others.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

Teams do nothing for the weak or average student, they are merely carried by the “Team”, thus creating the false sense of accomplishment, and re-enforcing the socialist type society of dependence on others.

Then the "team" system is not being taught correctly.

The teams I was in in highschool, the weak students were penalized for being lazy. It was a team effort, but half of the grade was your individual contributions. The projects were treated just like a company: together you get the benefit of a success through team (or company) recognition and success through grades. You also get individual accolades for excelling in your team, or for failing in your team. It provided much more workplace-usable experience then any individual project did.

 

[Annie]

Teams do nothing for the weak or average student, they are merely carried by the “Team”, thus creating the false sense of accomplishment, and re-enforcing the socialist type society of dependence on others.

You are speaking of 'cooperative groups', yeah I hate that too. Teams refer to block scedualing and cross curricular teaching.

 

[Mr. P]

Then the "team" system is not being taught correctly.

The teams I was in in highschool, the weak students were penalized for being lazy. It was a team effort, but half of the grade was your individual contributions. The projects were treated just like a company: together you get the benefit of a success through team (or company) recognition and success through grades. You also get individual accolades for excelling in your team, or for failing in your team. It provided much more workplace-usable experience then any individual project did.

I have no problem with “Team” projects. However, the concept has gone beyond that now. It is being used in the basic subject areas in which the “team” is graded as one, IMO for the most part, it’s simply a means to move weak/failing students along to the next grade etc.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

I have no problem with “Team” projects. However, the concept has gone beyond that now. It is being used in the basic subject areas in which the “team” is graded as one, IMO for the most part, it’s simply a means to move weak/failing students along to the next grade etc.

Any project where the entire team gets the same grade is "socialist crap" as so many here like to say.

Team building should be used in conjunction with individual grading, but never replace nor supercede it.

 

[Said1]

S Again despite some exceptions, highly paid employees usually learned or possess skills that are not common and are highly valued.

Not only that, many have put in their time at the bottom, make decisions that effect the entire company, bring in financing and on and on. A lot of the stuff they do keeps the 30K guy employed.

 

[Mr. P]

You are speaking of 'cooperative groups', yeah I hate that too. Teams refer to block scedualing and cross curricular teaching.

Sorry about that..all teams to me..I can see the difference. Thanks

 

[Mr. P]

Any project where the entire team gets the same grade is "socialist crap" as so many here like to say.

Team building should be used in conjunction with individual grading, but never replace nor supercede it.

Agreed, as long as "teams" are not the norm in the education process,
there must be some individual effort with feedback. IMO