Leading GOP Candidate a Cult Member!

[JoeB131]

Nice dodge. We were discussing the FACT that the GOP is much more fixated with religion as a qualification for office, than the Dems. What I did was show that your Wright argument was a strawman and now you're going for a rather overt attempt to change the subject.
But I give you credit! Yo do BOTH much more skillfully than most people!
In any case, my point stands. It is the GOP that overwhelmingly considers religion a qualification or disqualifier for political office. The Dems overwhelmingly just don't care.

Not a dodge guy.
Okay then I'll change the stuff off point of whether religion is a big deal to GOPers, to yellow.
Obama was forced to renounce his church, and I don't think he's even found a new one since then. Frankly, I think that his behavior was pretty reprehensible, because denouncing Wright wasn't his first response. His first response was to call his 80-something year old grandmother a racist. Why? Because she wanted her no-account husband to drive her to work because she was menaced by a stew-bum who happened to be black.

Why, yes. That's really racist. I mean, that's just as bad as saying "God Damn America!"

He only renounced Wright after Democratic elders told him he had to. Incidently, I don't think that Romney's religion has ever gotten much of a litmus test. The whole of Huckabee's supposed slander on LDS in 2008 was "Don't they believe that Jesus and Satan were brothers."

(For the record. Yeah. That's what Mormons believe. That and about 600 other batshit crazy things.) "


The more devastating things Huckabee said about Romney were not about his religion, but about his business practices and lack of moral convictions. My favorites-

"I look like the guy you work with. He looks like the guy who lays you off."
"He's not pro-Choice, he's multiple choice"
"He reached political maturity at 60"
None of the other candidates have even mentioned ROmney's religion this, other than Romney himself saying "Don't you dare call my cult a cult."

Seriously, I think we need a litmus test. Or a bat guano test.

The candidates don't need to bring up his religion. Remember where all this started? The religious leader of 30 Million voters told them on national tv, that "as good Christians, we should prefer a genuine Christian Candidate like that nice Rick Perry fellow."

My Far Right Wing nephew won't vote for Romney because of the Cult thing. Regardless of what you say, it's a BIG deal to a huge number of GOPers.

Guy, you highlighted points that Had NOTHING to do with religion. So let's try again by turning the NON religious points back to red.

Sorry, most of Huckabee's critiques of Romney had nothing to do with religion. And Obama throwing his grandmother under the bus had nothing to do wth religion. So you are starting with a dishonest argument.

Incidently, Romney was the guy who said voters had every right to look at his religion in 2008. Now, not so much.

And I'll point it out again. I'm an atheist. I don't believe in God. I don't believe in Jesus. My problem with Mormonism is the fraud, the self-delusion and the inability to apply reasoning skills, not the dogma.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Joe's weird for sure. Most of the active, educated LDS women I know are thinking about these issues, trying to figure how to balance them. Someone who works at church hqs said the figures are 50% lds young woman drop out by 21 from the church and that for the men it's even worse: 50% by 19 and then another 50% of RMs by age 25.

I don't know how accurate those figures actually are. If they are 1/3rd accurate, that still indicates a coming shift of major portions.

But don't assume the official LDS church will be the one that won't change based on its tradition. The Community of Christ (former RLDS) adopted female priesthood and universal marriage, with the Restoration branches taking almost 40% of the former RLDS membership.

Mormonism will continue to have another full century of excitement at least in its memberships.

I have heard that something like 65% of the church is not active.

But rarely do people remove their names from the records. In fact, when encouraged to do so, my experience is that they don't want to break that tie.

The point being that girlds don't leave the church because of this so-called sexism. They just decide they don't want to follow the standards of the church and drop out of activity.

Some come back and at different points in their lives.

For men it is the same thing.

It isn't an easy church to belong to.

Nah, the standards are not the issue for the overwhelming number of those who leave.

The narrative is the issue they don't buy, particularly the RMs who leave by age 25.

 

[Listening]

Joe's weird for sure. Most of the active, educated LDS women I know are thinking about these issues, trying to figure how to balance them. Someone who works at church hqs said the figures are 50% lds young woman drop out by 21 from the church and that for the men it's even worse: 50% by 19 and then another 50% of RMs by age 25.

I don't know how accurate those figures actually are. If they are 1/3rd accurate, that still indicates a coming shift of major portions.

But don't assume the official LDS church will be the one that won't change based on its tradition. The Community of Christ (former RLDS) adopted female priesthood and universal marriage, with the Restoration branches taking almost 40% of the former RLDS membership.

Mormonism will continue to have another full century of excitement at least in its memberships.

I have heard that something like 65% of the church is not active.

But rarely do people remove their names from the records. In fact, when encouraged to do so, my experience is that they don't want to break that tie.

The point being that girlds don't leave the church because of this so-called sexism. They just decide they don't want to follow the standards of the church and drop out of activity.

Some come back and at different points in their lives.

For men it is the same thing.

It isn't an easy church to belong to.

Nah, the standards are not the issue for the overwhelming number of those who leave.

The narrative is the issue they don't buy, particularly the RMs who leave by age 25.

I'd like to see the statistics for this claim. I have never heard and it has certainly not been my experience that 1/2 of the RM's in the church drop out by age 25.

I have read that the church tends to overstate it's membership (I saw a pretty good analysis on this one).

But I have never seen anything to support your claim.

I don't keep up with the ExMo crowd, but unless they are seeing something drastically different, they have always been a pretty small minority.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I have never anything to support your claim, Listening. You are suggesting folks don't live it because they don't like the standards. You have nothing to support that comment at all.

Thus, I certainly can say I have had contacts at Church hqs give the figures that I gave.

If you are happy, good for you, but don't suggest (without willingness to be contradicted) that others "sins" are the reason for the fall out. That is simply weak.

 

[Unkotare]

Uh, yes, I have.

You have done NOTHING but repeat the same bitoged, hateful democrat talking points over and over and over like some utterly hopeless OCD patient all day every day. You are a cowardly, useless waste of humanity, shitbag.

Guy, you need professional help for your anger issues. That's all I really have to say on the matter.

Says the hopeless OCD patient.

 

[Listening]

I have never anything to support your claim, Listening. You are suggesting folks don't live it because they don't like the standards. You have nothing to support that comment at all.

Thus, I certainly can say I have had contacts at Church hqs give the figures that I gave.

If you are happy, good for you, but don't suggest (without willingness to be contradicted) that others "sins" are the reason for the fall out. That is simply weak.

I think I indicated my anectodal evidence was really as such (as my experience).

And that is the case. I have lived in several wards and stakes and never heard of or been a part of anyone removing their names from the records.....not that they broadcast that kind of thing....but generally it is known. And I have never heard of anyone dropping out of the church because of the "sexist" stance of the church.

And I am not aware but of a couple of RM's who eventually fell out of activity (some of them relations). Most, I know, stay with it.

And I am not sure I said sins. I can't see the quote. I thought I said they simply don't want to live the standards of the church. If you translate that into sins, you are doing it on your own. I have enough of my own to worry about.

And I was just asking for some back up. I honestly have never heard or read that before. I would be shocked (and it would not be the first time). But, if the stat exists, it exists.

Just asking.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I have never anything to support your claim, Listening. You are suggesting folks don't live it because they don't like the standards. You have nothing to support that comment at all.

Thus, I certainly can say I have had contacts at Church hqs give the figures that I gave.

If you are happy, good for you, but don't suggest (without willingness to be contradicted) that others "sins" are the reason for the fall out. That is simply weak.

I think I indicated my anectodal evidence was really as such (as my experience).

And that is the case. I have lived in several wards and stakes and never heard of or been a part of anyone removing their names from the records.....not that they broadcast that kind of thing....but generally it is known. And I have never heard of anyone dropping out of the church because of the "sexist" stance of the church.

And I am not aware but of a couple of RM's who eventually fell out of activity (some of them relations). Most, I know, stay with it.

And I am not sure I said sins. I can't see the quote. I thought I said they simply don't want to live the standards of the church. If you translate that into sins, you are doing it on your own. I have enough of my own to worry about.

And I was just asking for some back up. I honestly have never heard or read that before. I would be shocked (and it would not be the first time). But, if the stat exists, it exists.

Just asking.

Then you are unaware. OK. You can do the looking if you wish, for if I give you sources I suspect you will not look at the numbers and then vet the source. You will simply poo poo anything with which you disagree.

 

[Listening]

Then you are unaware. OK. You can do the looking if you wish, for if I give you sources I suspect you will not look at the numbers and then vet the source. You will simply poo poo anything with which you disagree.

Why are you taking this line of reasoning ?

I simply asked for a source.

If I have been guilty of ignoring sources before, I apologize.

I recall hearing that 2/3 of the church is not active. I was shocked. But the claim was backed by a source. I now know that 2/3 of the church is inactive (which is a classification).

I also read somewhere that we overstate our numbers. It was sourced. I now think we overstate our numbers.

Why should I ignore the fact that 1/2 of all RM's drop out by the time they are 25. It does not impact my own beliefs.

But, as I said, that seems high to me and I am just looking for a source. Maybe it breaks it down into regions and some regions are more prone than others. Don't know.

Just asking.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Do the research. The fact is that young folks are leaving the LDS church in great numbers. Simple fact.

 

[Listening]

Do the research. The fact is that young folks are leaving the LDS church in great numbers. Simple fact.

Keep in mind, your claim was that 1/2 of all RM's leave by 25.

Also, you were saying that people are leaving for specific reasons that had to do with the church's position.

If you can provide any guidance on this subject, I would be grateful.

And I will do some research.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I am repeating what I have been told by LDS church workers at LDS hqs in SLC.

Let's keep the facts straight here, please.

 

[Listening]

I am repeating what I have been told by LDS church workers at LDS hqs in SLC.

Let's keep the facts straight here, please.

So, this is your source.

Not to be rude, but if it is not published, I am afraid I won't be able to verify your claim.

I will do some research.

And thank you for that reminder.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I put the source up before. You can certainly do your own research to verify or disallow.

 

[Listening]

I put the source up before. You can certainly do your own research to verify or disallow.

My apologies if I missed it, but I did do some reading on the net.

Seems that there was a presentation given by M. Russle Ballard about the reorg of the church's singles program to more readily meet their needs because the church is losing so many of them.

But I saw no discussion on the net about RM's leaving.

If you can point me to the source again, I 'd like to read it.

 

[MarcATL]

They've been campaigning heavily here in Atlanta

Mormon Church Begins Ad Campaign in Atlanta, Other Cities

I haven't seen them, but many of my friends and relatives have.

I tend to not watch/be informed about local news/politics as I am of national politics. I'm more of a big-picture type of guy.

 

[BDBoop]

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/10/too-soon-for-a-mormon-president/

Well, it's been half-a-century since it wasn't too soon for a Catholic President, so I'm gonna go with 'no'.

However, they should be looking at Huntsman. Not Romney.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Huntsman is by far the better Mormon candidate with by far the less chance.