Lakota break away from US

[mattskramer]

If the states do not have a right to withdraw from the union and form their own country, then a 'nation' -- which is nothing more than a group of people -- do not have that right.

I explained it as easily as I could. I don't know how else to explain it.

The treaty that the federal government made with the states is not to be broken and it has not been broken. The federal govenrment can't break it. The states can't break it.

The treaty that the federal government made with the Indians is not to be broken but the federal government broke it. That makes all the difference. Its history of breaking deals with the Indias made the treaties null and void.

 

[Shogun]

Ok, so you are equating the Balfour agreement with the Louisiana Purchase? I'm asking for clarity, then I'm going to have to consider that, which is very different than what I originally took as your argument.

In regards to the PERSPECTIVE OF THE NATIVES AND INDEGENOUS PALS this is exactly what I'm saying. we fought with Natives for just shy of 150 years over this land for the very same reasons that the pals reject israel. M14 illustrated our refusal of acceptance on par with pals. Is HE evil because he refuses to accept a Lakota nation in his back yard? I don't think so. yet, how easy is it to demonize pals for the same response? Extend that to the concept of Atzlan or even my Israel Texas hypothetical. I'm not excusing kassam rockets or scalping. BUT, I'm showing you how the conflict is not unique among muslim arabs nor unique AGAISNT jews in israel. This is the first step in getting past the blank check zionist that avoids issues that are critical if israel at all cost.

 

[Annie]

In regards to the PERSPECTIVE OF THE NATIVES AND INDEGENOUS PALS this is exactly what I'm saying. we fought with Natives for just shy of 150 years over this land for the very same reasons that the pals reject israel. M14 illustrated our refusal of acceptance on par with pals. Is HE evil because he refuses to accept a Lakota nation in his back yard? I don't think so. yet, how easy is it to demonize pals for the same response? Extend that to the concept of Atzlan or even my Israel Texas hypothetical. I'm not excusing kassam rockets or scalping. BUT, I'm showing you how the conflict is not unique among muslim arabs nor unique AGAISNT jews in israel. This is the first step in getting past the blank check zionist that avoids issues that are critical if israel at all cost.

I just sent you a pm before reading this, could you please on or off the boards explain what you would like me to respond to?

 

[mattskramer]

Um... that's how the US was created. You knew that, right?
IF they can successfully rebel, then more power to them.
Not a chance in hell of that happening, however.

Wow!!! Now I understand your political philosophy. Might makes right. Thanks for clearing that up. Forget treaties, deals, and contracts. If you are powerful enough, then that which is right is that which you are physically able to do and get away with. I finally got it. Clear enough.

 

[Shogun]

Um... that's how the US was created. You knew that, right?
IF they can successfully rebel, then more power to them.
Not a chance in hell of that happening, however.


Horse shi'ite. Yours is hardly the first time I've seen this, and it was obvious where you were going -- you're as clever as the lint between my toes.

Ok, just clearing that up.. I want to make sure that Mexico knows to bring out it's big guns when supporting ATZLANIANS in fending off the US so that you will come to understand and accept their choice to take back their ancient land.


clever as the lint between your toes? Son, my worst analogy makes that response seem like an ant pointing at the center of our solar system.

 

[M14 Shooter]

The treaty that the federal government made with the Indians is not to be broken but the federal government broke it. That makes all the difference. Its history of breaking deals with the Indias made the treaties null and void.

This doesnt give the people of those 'nations' a right to rebel aganst their government, and it doesn't preclude the government exercise it's right to put down their rebellion.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

If Im not mistaken, the Lakota have refused any payment from the US govt. They still recognize the Black Hills as their land and rightfully so. Also, they take only private donations for the Crazyhorse monument at Mt Rushmore, not govt monies. I was always impressed with Sitting Bull's resistance to the US govt.

 

[Shogun]

I'll help:
Shogun doesnt -really- give a hoot about the Lakota, he's simply using them and their "plight" as yet another way to attack Israel.

Thats silly. Of course I care about the Lakata.. When they build a wall and keep your American ass in a refugee camp i;ll even care about you too!


So, what is your allergy to thinking critically called again?

 

[Shogun]

If Im not mistaken, the Lakota have refused any payment from the US govt. They still recognize the Black Hills as their land and rightfully so. Also, they take only private donations for the Crazyhorse monument at Mt Rushmore, not govt monies. I was always impressed with Sitting Bull's resistance to the US govt.

Ahhhh! Fresh ideas.

Would you accept a Lakota Nation? Just curious. Feel free to hop on into the fray.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Ok, just clearing that up.. I want to make sure that Mexico knows to bring out it's big guns when supporting ATZLANIANS in fending off the US so that you will come to understand and accept their choice to take back their ancient land.

You can try to take it back all you want - just dont bring anything you cannot afford to lose.

Point is, you arguing that you have a right to whatever 'ancient land' you care to mention doesnt mean squat when enough people with enough guns and enough will to use them disagree with you.

clever as the lint between your toes? Son, my worst analogy makes that response seem like an ant pointing at the center of our solar system.

Oh, if only you knew how I cower at your superior wit.

 

[mattskramer]

This doesnt give the people of those 'nations' a right to rebel aganst their government, and it doesn't preclude the government exercise it's right to put down their rebellion.

I see. So if there is a treaty and we become strong and break the treaty, we are then justified in writing up another treaty and force the other side to sign it. The other side is then obligated to obey it. Again, it amounts to might being righteous.

“I’ve become stronger than you and I don’t like this treaty that we signed, so I’m going to ignore it and force you to sign a new treaty. You will be put on a tiny reservation. It might be unfair since you were here first. Too bad.”

 

[M14 Shooter]

Thats silly. Of course I care about the Lakata.

You can lie to me all you want, but you really shouldn't lie to yourself.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I see. So if there is a treaty and we become strong and break the treaty, we are then justified in writing up another treaty and force the other side to sign it. The other side is then obligated to obey it. Again, it amounts to might being righteous.

“I’ve become stronger than you and I don’t like this treaty that we signed, so I’m going to ignore it and force you to sign a new treaty. You will be put on a tiny reservation. It might be unfair since you were here first. Too bad.”

Welcome to how the real world works.

 

[Annie]

Ahhhh! Fresh ideas.

Would you accept a Lakota Nation? Just curious. Feel free to hop on into the fray.

I'm jumping in sooner than I expected to, as I was awaiting your response. None of the 'nations' can overcome the power of the US Government, regardless of just cause. No lands are going to be ceded. The best that can happen is a compromise, that will let the Natives feel they have saved face. I'd like more for them, but that would mean catching up to 21st C and arguing for better education, and right for higher education.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Wow!!! Now I understand your political philosophy. Might makes right. Thanks for clearing that up. Forget treaties, deals, and contracts. If you are powerful enough, then that which is right is that which you are physically able to do and get away with. I finally got it. Clear enough.

Again, welcome to the real world.

 

[mattskramer]

Welcome to how the real world works.

I don’t ask you what is. I ask you what is right and just. And you consider that to be just and right. Okay.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I'm jumping in sooner than I expected to, as I was awaiting your response. None of the 'nations' can overcome the power of the US Government, regardless of just cause.

You are -exactly- right.
"Just cause" and $0.99 gets your a double cheeseburger if you dont have the power to back your cause up.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I don’t ask you what is. I ask you what is right and just. And you consider that to be just and right. Okay.

You still dont get it.
It doesnt matter what is 'right and just' -- all that REALLY matters is how much force you can muster against someone that disagrees with you.

 

[mattskramer]

You are -exactly- right.
"Just cause" and $0.99 gets your a double cheeseburger if you dont have the power to back your cause up.

If you are bigger and stronger than the people at the fast food place, just march in and take the burger and dash out. I don't want it for 99 cents. I want it for free. Using M14's logic, it would be okay.

 

[M14 Shooter]

If you are bigger and stronger than the people at the fast food place, just march in and take the burger and dash out. I don't want it for 99 cents. I want it for free. Using M14's logic, it would be okay.

Contnue your scenario to its logical conclusion, sport.
What do you get?