Keynes vs Friedman: who was the most influential economist?

[georgephillip]

I try to remember (and it was something that Keynes was ever-mindful of) that whatever needs to be done must be politically realistic. People vote out of self-interest. They aren't going to fall on their swords for the benefit of future generations. The public won't tolerate a government which promotes short-term pain to the ends of long-term gain. And that's why democracy inevitably ends in suicide.

Suicide by oligarchy in the case of the US, I suspect. Keynes might well argue to re-incentivize the rich to put their money in long-term investments instead of short-term Wall Street loans:

"In the end there is one way out of this economic mess—Keynes would say we have to shock, push, lure and sweet-talk the rich in this country to part with their money and start enterprises that get us out of debt.

"But how are we going to do that? We can’t even get employers sitting on hoards of cash to hire a few extra workers.

* * *

"So what would Keynes do?

"Well, I don’t know: he’s dead, as we all are in the long run.

"But I have a hunch what he would do. As the solon or lawgiver of modern social democracy, Keynes would look at the most successful social democracy in the world right now.

"What do the Germans, with their hefty trade surplus, do?

"First, they have a whole different type of corporation—with workers making up half the directors on the board.

"And workers have privileged positions in the firms, real power and responsibility. It doesn’t guarantee that corporations invest, but it’s a big help to have workers in director chairs sitting in the boardrooms.

"In addition, the Germans have government-sponsored banks, like the Sparkassen, that lend to businesses. We have the Federal Reserve printing money like crazy, but the banks sit on it..."

What Would Keynes Do The Nation

 

[Londoner]

Keynes not only had a historically singular influence over postwar capitalism (1945-1975) across the industrialized west, but his influence continued through the neoliberalism of Reagan/Thatcher, who, despite their rhetoric of less government, were huge deficit spenders. And Reagan added more government jobs (mostly in defense) than Carter/Clinton combined. In short, everybody is Keynsian at the end of the day, though some are pretty crude practitioners. FYI: Friedman speculated just prior to his death that Keynes would have been disappointment with those who acted in his name. Friedman, Keynes biggest critic after Hayek, respected Keynes far more than anyone acknowledged.

 

[Publius1787]

Keynes' theories were extremely influential from the Great Depression to the oil shocks in the 1970s, but since the 1980s Friedman's theories have strongly influenced policy. With the global financial crisis some keynesian ideas are coming back. Between the two economists: who was the most influential?
Keynes vs Friedman: who was the most influential economist?

Today? Keynes. From the 70's to the early 90's, however, Friedman.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

) capitalism is self correcting so there would be no crisises
2) FDR tried Keynes and unemployment did not rebound until FDR and Keynes were dead 15 years later and after their world war had killed 60 million. Under Friedman economy would have been good in 1930.

What was the biggest threat to the US Economy in 1930, unemployment or inflation?

unemployment of course but why do you ask? Do you have any idea why you asked?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Keynes' theories were extremely influential from the Great Depression to the oil shocks in the 1970s, but since the 1980s Friedman's theories have strongly influenced policy. With the global financial crisis some keynesian ideas are coming back. Between the two economists: who was the most influential?
Keynes vs Friedman: who was the most influential economist?

Today? Keynes. From the 70's to the early 90's, however, Friedman.

if Keynes was important we'd still be using cash for clunkers type programs to fix economy instead we're letting capitalism slowly fix what liberal/soviets broke.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

. Friedman, Keynes biggest critic after Hayek, respected Keynes far more than anyone acknowledged.

In the end Friedman hated what Keynes stood for because Keynes stood for govt intervention. There was respect for his genius but not for what it produced.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

) capitalism is self correcting so there would be no crisises
2) FDR tried Keynes and unemployment did not rebound until FDR and Keynes were dead 15 years later and after their world war had killed 60 million. Under Friedman economy would have been good in 1930.

What was the biggest threat to the US Economy in 1930, unemployment or inflation?

Progressivism

 

[georgephillip]

) capitalism is self correcting so there would be no crisises
2) FDR tried Keynes and unemployment did not rebound until FDR and Keynes were dead 15 years later and after their world war had killed 60 million. Under Friedman economy would have been good in 1930.

What was the biggest threat to the US Economy in 1930, unemployment or inflation?

Progressivism

Wall Street.

 

[georgephillip]

unemployment of course but why do you ask? Do you have any idea why you asked?

Which mechanism was more efficient in decreasing unemployment, price adjustment or income adjustment?

 

[Publius1787]

. Friedman, Keynes biggest critic after Hayek, respected Keynes far more than anyone acknowledged.

In the end Friedman hated what Keynes stood for because Keynes stood for govt intervention. There was respect for his genius but not for what it produced.

Freidman HATED Keynes? Have you ready any Freidman's academic publications? Your statement is totally untrue.

 

[Publius1787]

Keynes' theories were extremely influential from the Great Depression to the oil shocks in the 1970s, but since the 1980s Friedman's theories have strongly influenced policy. With the global financial crisis some keynesian ideas are coming back. Between the two economists: who was the most influential?
Keynes vs Friedman: who was the most influential economist?

Today? Keynes. From the 70's to the early 90's, however, Friedman.

if Keynes was important we'd still be using cash for clunkers type programs to fix economy instead we're letting capitalism slowly fix what liberal/soviets broke.

Both were important. Both had much to contribute to the academic community with respect to the study of economics. Both did monumental works that changed the way we thought about economics. The next time you see C+I+G+(X-M)=Y thank Keynes. But you probably don't know what that is do you?

 

[Friends]

This is because a powerful government was needed to pull a country out of the Great Depression.

Totally stupid of course. Powerful govt caused the Great Depression like it caused the Soviet Union. Liberalism prolonged the depression for 10 years and caused world war. It had nothing to do with ending the depression which did not end until FDR was finally dead!! Powerful govt was the Great Depression, the worst period in American History!

See why we are 100% positive that liberalism is based in pure ignorance.

First of all, your insults are not intimidating. They reveal your bad character and personality. When I am trying to find out where truth lies on a complex topic any appeal to emotion inclines me to give more credence to the other side of the dispute. This is probably true for other reasonable people also.

Although you accuse me of ignorance you post no facts, you reveal no understanding, just cliches and irritable emotions.

The Great Depression did not emerge after years of "Powerful govt," but after the Republican Party had dominated the United States for at least eight years. One could trace Republican domination back to the election of Abraham Lincoln, but I am allowing a brief interregnum for the Progressive era and the administration of Woodrow Wilson.

Reactionaries like to look back on the 1920's as a kind of economic golden age. During the first term of Franklin Roosevelt there was nearly as much growth in the per capita gross domestic product adjusted to 1996 dollars as during the administrations of Warren G. Harding and Calvin Coolidge. There was considerably more job creation during FDR's first term. Keep in mind I am not including the disastrous term of Herbert Hoover from my assertions.

Roosevelt was elected in 1932. He died in 1945. During this time unemployment declined from 23.6 percent to 1.2 percent. Per capita gross domestic product in 1996 dollars rose from $4,901 to $12,100.

United States Unemployment Rate 1920 ndash 2013 Infoplease.com

Singularity is Near -SIN Graph - Per-Capita GDP

 

[Friends]

powerful government was needed to pull a country out of the Great Depression.

incredibly stupid and liberal. How could powerful lib/commie govt pull a country out of depression rather than keep in depression??

Franklin Roosevelt did pull us out of the Great Depression. That is why he was reelected three times, and why his face is on the dime.

Moreover, there are important differences between liberals and Communists. I know because I have had friends who were Communist Party members. We disagreed on important issues. Nevertheless, they were civil and well informed. You are not.

 

[Friends]

John Maynard Keynes was neither a Nazi, nor a Communist.

OMG!! How totally illiterate can a human being be??


As Communist Party General Secretary William Z. Foster commented, "The Nazi fascists were especially enthusiastic supporters of Keynes."[65] Former Trotskyite[66] Dobbs recounted that Harvard economist Joseph Schumpeter observed that in Nazi Germany, "A work like Keynes’ General Theory could have appeared unmolested—and did." In the introduction to the 1936 German edition of his treatise, Keynes himself suggested that the total state that the National Socialists were then building was perfectly suited for the implementation of his investment schemes:


“ The theory of aggregate production that is the goal of the following book can be much more easily applied to the conditions of a totalitarian state than the theory of production and distribution of a given output turned out under the conditions of free competition and a considerable degree of laissez-faire.[67]

John Maynard Keynes was neither a Nazi Party member, nor a Nazi sympathizer. However, Nazi Germany did recover faster from the Great Depression than the United States or Great Britain. This is because the German government played a much greater role in economic management.

In 1930 unemployment in Germany reached 30 percent. By 1939 it had virtually ceased to exist.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Franklin Roosevelt did pull us out of the Great Depression. That is why he was reelected three times, and why his face is on the dime.

dear, face on dime does not prove he ended Depression. In fact his 3 terms were all depression all the time because of his stupid liberal economic policies. That plus world war, set record for any worst US president ever; by far. It was only when he finally died that economy recovered.

If Obama could keep this recession going for 10 years would that make him a hero in your liberal eyes? Do you see why we say liberalism is based in pure ignorance?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

In 1930 unemployment in Germany reached 30 percent. By 1939 it had virtually ceased to exist.

totally stupid and liberal I'm afriad. It is well know that you can always keep employment at 0% if the govt employs people making weapons or widgets. Do you know why we don't do that? Of course not, as a liberal you would have no idea. You prove that liberalism is based in pure ignorance. Sorry.

 

[Friends]

In other words, Keynesian economic policies were not designed to deal with the different economic problems of the mid and late 1970's.

totally stupid and 100% liberal!! If you read the General Theory, not that you could understand it, you would learn that it dealt with all economic problems. What we have learned since then is that liberal/soviet interference with the economy gives you a soviet result.

Have you read Keynes’ General Theory of Employment, Money, and Interest? II have not, but I have read about it. How does Keynes say a country should deal with a shortage in an essential natural resource?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Moreover, there are important differences between liberals and Communists.

not really Obama had 3 communist parents and voted to left of Bernie Sanders an open communist.
The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.


This was precisely the tactic of “infiltration” advocated by Lenin and Stalin.[3] As Communist International General Secretary Georgi Dimitroff told the Seventh World Congress of the Comintern in 1935:
"Comrades, you remember the ancient tale of the capture of Troy. Troy was inaccessible to the armies attacking her, thanks to her impregnable walls. And the attacking army, after suffering many sacrifices, was unable to achieve victory until, with the aid of the famous Trojan horse, it managed to penetrate to the very heart of the enemy’s camp."[4]

C. S. Lewis on Diabolical Democracy Socialism and Public Education Conservative Colloquium


Buckley endorsed Chambers’ analysis of modern liberalism as a watered-down version of Communist ideology. The New Deal, Chambers insists, is not liberal democratic but “revolutionary” in its nature and intentions, seeking “a basic change in the social and, above all, the power relationships within the nation.”

"I am for socialism, disarmament, and, ultimately, for abolishing the state itself... I seek the social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class, and the sole control of those who produce wealth. Communism is the goal."
--- Roger Nash Baldwin

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

In other words, Keynesian economic policies were not designed to deal with the different economic problems of the mid and late 1970's.

totally stupid and 100% liberal!! If you read the General Theory, not that you could understand it, you would learn that it dealt with all economic problems. What we have learned since then is that liberal/soviet interference with the economy gives you a soviet result.

Have you read Keynes’ General Theory of Employment, Money, and Interest? II have not, but I have read about it. How does Keynes say a country should deal with a shortage in an essential natural resource?

Keynes' Consuming Ideas On Economic Intervention : NPR
www.npr.org/2011/11/.../keynes-consuming-ideas-on-economic-intervention
‎
Nov 16, 2011 ... "Keynes' top objective was to re-employ resources that were not being ... tostimulate and reorganize the use of our great natural resources.".

 

[Friends]

In 1930 unemployment in Germany reached 30 percent. By 1939 it had virtually ceased to exist.

totally stupid and liberal I'm afriad. It is well know that you can always keep employment at 0% if the govt employs people making weapons or widgets. Do you know why we don't do that? Of course not, as a liberal you would have no idea. You prove that liberalism is based in pure ignorance. Sorry.

As one with a deep love for the Jewish people I cannot be accused of being a neo Nazi. The survival of anti Semitism sickens me. Nevertheless, people visiting Germany during the late 1930's noted that things were getting better. Shops and restaurants were full of customers. People had money to spend.