In a world without guns...the strong and the many can brutally beat the weak and outnumbered...

[Rikurzhen]

Firearm rights have been expanding over time. The rates from 15 years ago are pretty meaningless. The deterrence effect is diminished when we go back so far. As more people become gun owners "politeness" increases. The last 5 years in Idaho have had lower rates than most all years prior, plus we're dealing with a small population base so year by year spikes of a few additional murders are going to show significant change in the state-wide statistics.

That's why statisticians don't use a single year.

Gun ownership has always been easier in Idaho than it has been in Canada. And the murder rate has almost always been significantly higher.

More Canadian data for 2010 broken down by province.

Nova Scotia = 2.22
Ontario= 1.43
Manitoba = 3.64
Saskatchewan = 3.26
British Columbia = 1.83
Yukon = 2.89
NWT = 2.28
Nunavit = 18.28 (not a typo)

Idaho, again, was 1.4.

Again, that's one single year. Over time, the murder rate has been higher in white, gun-toting Idaho than in Canada.

Why is Idaho so special?

Here are the homicide rates in New Hampshire, a state with a 1.5% black population and so this puts us into the homicide rate territory of Germany and France:

1990 = 1.9
1991 = 3.6
1992 = 1.6
1883 = 2.0
1994 = 1.4
1995 = 1.8
1996 = 1.7
1997 = 1.4
1998 = 1.5
1999 = 1.5
2000 = 1.8
2001 = 1.3
2002 = 0.9
2003 = 1.3
2004 = 1.3
2005 = 1.5
2006 = 1.0
2007 = 1.1
2008 = 1.1
2009 = 0.8
2010 = 1.0
2011 = 1.2
2012 = 1.1

More Canadian data for 2010 broken down by province.

Nova Scotia = 2.22
Ontario= 1.43
Manitoba = 3.64
Saskatchewan = 3.26
British Columbia = 1.83
Yukon = 2.89
NWT = 2.28
Nunavit = 18.28 (not a typo)

It's not "more" Canadian data. It's the "same" Canadian data you post over and over again. Cherry-picking one year out of 40 doesn't support your argument. It's like your team going 3-37 over the past 40 games against the same team, and picking out one game you won and claiming your team is better than the other team despite losing 37 of the 39 other games.

The reason why I picked Idaho is because it is 93% white, small, and has lots of guns. Your post about NH is fair. However, it doesn't change the fact that the rate of murder in white Idaho where there are lots of guns is greater than Canada's. The murder rate for white America is still ~2x greater than all of Canada according to your post here.

On the prairies and in the territories, the murder rate is high because of the high Native population of ~10%. Nunavut, for example, has 30,000 people, 85% which are Native. That approximates with the murder rate in your graphic of 14/100k in the US.

Idaho is not 93% white for that category includes Latin American Hispanics. Idaho is 83% non-Hispanic white.

So just as you point out the higher Native homicide rate in Canada, Idaho and the rest of America, are also contending with a higher Hispanic homicide rate, a 4x+ higher rate for Hispanic males than for non-Hispanic white males. Idaho also have a higher Native American presence than the US as a whole, and that demographic group has a homicide rate which is 5x greater than non-Hispanic whites.

New Hampshire is pretty damn white and it's homicide rate matches Frances and Germany and beats Ontario too.

And I'm not cherry picking one year of data, I supplied New Hampshire homicide rate data for every year since 1990. Here it is again:

1990 = 1.9
1991 = 3.6
1992 = 1.6
1883 = 2.0
1994 = 1.4
1995 = 1.8
1996 = 1.7
1997 = 1.4
1998 = 1.5
1999 = 1.5
2000 = 1.8
2001 = 1.3
2002 = 0.9
2003 = 1.3
2004 = 1.3
2005 = 1.5
2006 = 1.0
2007 = 1.1
2008 = 1.1
2009 = 0.8
2010 = 1.0
2011 = 1.2
2012 = 1.1​

 

[Rotagilla]

Is it wrong?

People have been murdering other people for as long as we have existed.

I see nothing that will change that in our future

It can be overcome, if people can let go of the ego.

That's hilarious!
Did your sociology professor tell you that?

When do you believe this magical day of spontaneous harmony will suddenly manifest?

No. I never had one.

Hmm...maybe you should have taken the course, then.
Do you seriously believe what you typed?

*Pro Tip*
Humans are flawed creatures.

They always have been. They always will be.
There will always be crime, jealousy, anger, frustration, corruption..etc.. all the vices.

So I'm dumb if I take it and maybe I should take it?

I have no idea. You decide.

Humans can rise to a consciousness. Most are asleep in nationalism and religion, but saying things will always be the way they were is silly.

Humans are flawed creatures. They always have been and they always will be. Denial of that basic human fact is what's "silly".

 

[Brain357]

Guns per capita & homicides per capita:

USA : 90 guns per 100 people
Holland: 3.9

USA 4.7
Holland: 0.9

And another myth bites the dust.....

meh

research has proven that European countries with gun bans have murder rates three times as high countries without gun bans.

Anyway.....these gun grabber threads done matter anymore. Everybody wants guns in 2014. Only the fringe k00ks are still pushing this gun grabbing shit.

There are lots of countries with banned guns that have very low homicide rates. Please share your research. Is it the one that considers Russia in Europe? haha

But there's no evidence that the decrease in their murder rates was solely as a consequence of banning firearms.

Not that I have seen. The point is it is not about guns.

 

[BullKurtz]

After thousands of years of "evolution" we still have hair on our backs, a tailbone, and show our teeth when we're enraged. And somebody is calling for the "loss of ego"? Those folks should still expect to be roasted and eaten in the Congo.

 

[Rotagilla]

After thousands of years of "evolution" we still have hair on our backs, a tailbone, and show our teeth when we're enraged. And somebody is calling for the "loss of ego"? Those folks should still expect to be roasted and eaten in the Congo.

Well said.

 

[Brain357]

There also is no body count to support the numbers.

So if no one is killed, the incident doesn't count?

Well if they aren't in the news and nobody is actually shooting any killing anyone then any intelligent person would know they aren't happening 2.5 million times a year. The surveys all guess from what 400k to 3 million? So like 400k plus or minus 2.6million? They are obviously very inaccurate. If these surveys were accurate they would all arrive at around the same number.

ok..you're right..no one protects themselves with guns...all numbers are lies...everyone else is wrong. whatever....

That's not what I'm saying. It certainly does happen. But 2.5 million times a year it does not. 1.4 million it does not. Probably under 100k.

but you can't prove it either...what a waste of time.

I hope you never find yourself in a situation where you need to protect yourself or a loved one...but if you ever do, I GUARANTEE you won't be worried about EXACTLY how many times a day people protect themselves from criminals with guns or quibbling over the numbers on a message board...

Well I have known lots of people who have never needed one and neither have I. Heck I don't know anyone who has used one for defense. I'm really not sure why so many people think they need one. You are far more likely to be accidently shot than murdered with a gun. A study showed you are far more likely to be shot if you carry a gun. Stop being so paranoid and scared.

 

[Rotagilla]

Well I have known lots of people who have never needed one and neither have I. Heck I don't know anyone who has used one for defense. I'm really not sure why so many people think they need one. You are far more likely to be accidently shot than murdered with a gun. A study showed you are far more likely to be shot if you carry a gun. Stop being so paranoid and scared.

Yeah..well, that's all quite vague.."a study showed..."..I've seen THAT before..LMAO

Like I said, if you are ever in a situation where you need to defend yourself, I hope you remember all the people you know who never used a gun for self defense..I'm sure that will give you a feeling of moral superiority as the criminals beat the shit out of you....or rape/rob/carjack your wife/sister/mother/grandmother/daughter....

Look, I've never used a fire extinguisher to put out a fire in my house....but I still keep 2 handy.

 

[Toro]

That's why statisticians don't use a single year.

Gun ownership has always been easier in Idaho than it has been in Canada. And the murder rate has almost always been significantly higher.

More Canadian data for 2010 broken down by province.

Nova Scotia = 2.22
Ontario= 1.43
Manitoba = 3.64
Saskatchewan = 3.26
British Columbia = 1.83
Yukon = 2.89
NWT = 2.28
Nunavit = 18.28 (not a typo)

Idaho, again, was 1.4.

Again, that's one single year. Over time, the murder rate has been higher in white, gun-toting Idaho than in Canada.

Why is Idaho so special?

Here are the homicide rates in New Hampshire, a state with a 1.5% black population and so this puts us into the homicide rate territory of Germany and France:

1990 = 1.9
1991 = 3.6
1992 = 1.6
1883 = 2.0
1994 = 1.4
1995 = 1.8
1996 = 1.7
1997 = 1.4
1998 = 1.5
1999 = 1.5
2000 = 1.8
2001 = 1.3
2002 = 0.9
2003 = 1.3
2004 = 1.3
2005 = 1.5
2006 = 1.0
2007 = 1.1
2008 = 1.1
2009 = 0.8
2010 = 1.0
2011 = 1.2
2012 = 1.1

More Canadian data for 2010 broken down by province.

Nova Scotia = 2.22
Ontario= 1.43
Manitoba = 3.64
Saskatchewan = 3.26
British Columbia = 1.83
Yukon = 2.89
NWT = 2.28
Nunavit = 18.28 (not a typo)

It's not "more" Canadian data. It's the "same" Canadian data you post over and over again. Cherry-picking one year out of 40 doesn't support your argument. It's like your team going 3-37 over the past 40 games against the same team, and picking out one game you won and claiming your team is better than the other team despite losing 37 of the 39 other games.

The reason why I picked Idaho is because it is 93% white, small, and has lots of guns. Your post about NH is fair. However, it doesn't change the fact that the rate of murder in white Idaho where there are lots of guns is greater than Canada's. The murder rate for white America is still ~2x greater than all of Canada according to your post here.

On the prairies and in the territories, the murder rate is high because of the high Native population of ~10%. Nunavut, for example, has 30,000 people, 85% which are Native. That approximates with the murder rate in your graphic of 14/100k in the US.

Idaho is not 93% white for that category includes Latin American Hispanics. Idaho is 83% non-Hispanic white.

So just as you point out the higher Native homicide rate in Canada, Idaho and the rest of America, are also contending with a higher Hispanic homicide rate, a 4x+ higher rate for Hispanic males than for non-Hispanic white males. Idaho also have a higher Native American presence than the US as a whole, and that demographic group has a homicide rate which is 5x greater than non-Hispanic whites.

New Hampshire is pretty damn white and it's homicide rate matches Frances and Germany and beats Ontario too.

And I'm not cherry picking one year of data, I supplied New Hampshire homicide rate data for every year since 1990. Here it is again:

1990 = 1.9
1991 = 3.6
1992 = 1.6
1883 = 2.0
1994 = 1.4
1995 = 1.8
1996 = 1.7
1997 = 1.4
1998 = 1.5
1999 = 1.5
2000 = 1.8
2001 = 1.3
2002 = 0.9
2003 = 1.3
2004 = 1.3
2005 = 1.5
2006 = 1.0
2007 = 1.1
2008 = 1.1
2009 = 0.8
2010 = 1.0
2011 = 1.2
2012 = 1.1​

The Native population in Idaho is 1.7% compared to 1.2% for the country and 10% in the Canadian prairie provinces.

The Hispanic murder rate is 2.25x the white population. Excluding Hispanics, the murder rate by whites is 2.5x in the US, still significantly higher than Canada's 1.7.

The homicide victimization rate for Hispanics in the United States is more than twice as high as the homicide victimization rate for whites. The Hispanic homicide victimization rate in 2010 was 5.73 per 100,000. Incomparison, the homicide victimization rate for whites was 2.52 per 100,000 (p. 4).

http://www.vpc.org/studies/hispanic.pdf

 

[Rikurzhen]

Very white New Hampshire, operating under American firearm laws and culture, had a 2012 Homicide rate of 1.1 per 100,000 population.

European countries had the following homicide rates:

Czech Republic = 1.0
Hungary = 1.3
Poland = 1.2
Denmark = 0.8
Finland = 1.6
Ireland = 1.2
Norway = 2.2
Sweden = 0.7
United Kingdom = 1.0
Croatia = 1.2
Greece = 1.7
Italy = 0.9
Kosovo = 3.6
Malta = 2.8
Belgium = 1.6
Spain = 0.8
France = 1.0
Austria = 0.9
Germany = 0.8
Netherlands = 0.9
Switzerland = 0.6

When we compare white populations in America, especially those in high concentration white societies where people don't have to deal with the social dysfunction caused by minorities, then their very low homicide rates compare with European homicide rates.

The lesson here is twofold. Living in proximity to blacks and Hispanics increases the white homicde rate AND the white homicide rate, regardless of the diversity of the surrounding society, is lower than that of blacks and Hispanics.

The lowest white homicide rate is in rich, heavily, or exclusively, white communities, just like we see in Europe.

Remember this though "Diversity is our Strength."™ Diversity bring us gloriously higher homicide rates but to offset that we get to experience fantastic Folk Fests and we get to savor some fine goat-based cuisines in ethnic restaurants. That seems like a fair trade - what's a few murders in exchange for bragging rights to some new ethnic restaurant we get to discover.

 

[Toro]

The white murder rate in the US is 2.5, higher than all the Western European countries.

 

[Darkwind]

It's easy to be dispassionate about curtailing the rights of others when you have never been privileged to have those same rights.

Oh, we have far, far, far greater rights in Europe than you possibly ever will do in the US.

For instance, we have the right to go to work in saftey. The right to go to school in safety.

And these aren't empty claims - there is clear, obvious statistical proof that a European school is safer than an American one.

A lie, and you know that is a lie.

Of course...

If you are told when to get up, you are safer.
If you are told when to evacuate your body waste, you are safer.
If you are told what to eat for each meal, you are safer.
If you are told where to work and how, you are safer.
If you art told how to raise your children, you are safer.
If you are told what entertainment you are should enjoy, you are safer.

If you stop doing these things, you are less safe.

Tyranny of government, how it directs your life and how you breath, eat, sleep, breed....all of it can make a person safer.


If you can call such a being a 'person'.

The most unsafe society in the world is one that is so regulated that free thought is taught right out of you.

 

[Toro]

Most white murders are white on white murders. It's close to 90%. It has nothing to do with whether blacks or Hispanics are nearby.

 

[MaryL]

Keep in mind guns save more lives than they take? Actually, the weak or the strong use guns to dominate the powerless, it's a vicious cycle to advocate for firearms.

 

[Rikurzhen]

The Native population in Idaho is 1.7% compared to 1.2% for the country and 10% in the Canadian prairie provinces.

The Hispanic murder rate is 2.25x the white population. Excluding Hispanics, the murder rate by whites is 2.5x in the US, still significantly higher than Canada's 1.7.

The homicide victimization rate for Hispanics in the United States is more than twice as high as the homicide victimization rate for whites. The Hispanic homicide victimization rate in 2010 was 5.73 per 100,000. Incomparison, the homicide victimization rate for whites was 2.52 per 100,000 (p. 4).

http://www.vpc.org/studies/hispanic.pdf

Speaking of cherry picking, I knew something was wrong with your data on Hispanic homicide rates and right in the intro to your study is this caveat:

As a result of the limitations in current data collection, the total number of Hispanic victims is almost certainly higher than the reported numbers suggest. Government agencies often report data on race but not on ethnic origin. Recognizing the changing demographic landscape in the United States, it is clear that fully documenting such victimization is a crucial first step toward preventing it.
​

Here is the CDC data which does make note of race/ethnicity which is not recorded accurately by the FBI:

Non-Hispanic white males, age 15-39, = 3.03
Black males, age 15-39 = 62.8
Hispanic-white males, age 15-39 = 13.72
Native male , age 15-39 = 14.28

What did I report? Hispanic males had a 4x greater homicide rate than non-Hispanic whites males. the actual ratio is 13.72 / 3.03 = 4.53. I also reported that Native males had a 5x greater rate than non-Hispanic males, the actual rate is 14.28 / 3.03 = 4.7

My access to the CDC database is restricted over the weekend so I can't, at this moment, report the total homicide rate from all causes for all ages but I don't expect the ratio to fall down to your reported 2.25 multiple.

 

[Brain357]

Well I have known lots of people who have never needed one and neither have I. Heck I don't know anyone who has used one for defense. I'm really not sure why so many people think they need one. You are far more likely to be accidently shot than murdered with a gun. A study showed you are far more likely to be shot if you carry a gun. Stop being so paranoid and scared.

Yeah..well, that's all quite vague.."a study showed..."..I've seen THAT before..LMAO

Like I said, if you are ever in a situation where you need to defend yourself, I hope you remember all the people you know who never used a gun for self defense..I'm sure that will give you a feeling of moral superiority as the criminals beat the shit out of you....or rape/rob/carjack your wife/sister/mother/grandmother/daughter....

Look, I've never used a fire extinguisher to put out a fire in my house....but I still keep 2 handy.

Here you go.
Carrying a gun increases risk of getting shot and killed - science-in-society - 06 October 2009 - New Scientist

So because of all those things that are very unlikely to happen I should have a gun? Even though you are far more likely to be accidentally shot than ever need a gun for those reasons I should carry a gun? Even though carrying a gun makes you more likely to be shot?

How many times have people been killed by accidental fire extinguisher?

When that Vegas couple shot those cops and then went to the Walmart the only guy they killed was the armed guy. Having a gun isn't always a good thing.

 

[Toro]

In white Prince Edward Island, where there is strict gun control, the murder rate was 0.00 in 2012, and has averaged 0.4 over the past 5 years, which is ~60% less than NH, where its easy to own guns.

Homicide offences number and rate by province and territory Homicide rate

 

[Rikurzhen]

The white murder rate in the US is 2.5, higher than all the Western European countries.

And we're a slightly different people that the Western Europeans. Our ancestors were the adventurous ones who immigrated. The ancestors of the Europeans are the timid people who stayed behind.

 

[Rikurzhen]

Most white murders are white on white murders. It's close to 90%. It has nothing to do with whether blacks or Hispanics are nearby.

Sure it does. Diversity destroys society. It corrodes trust, even within racial groups. In increases tensions, even within racial groups.

A state, or region, which is all white, or nearly so, will have higher social capital metrics than the white community found within a larger, multicultural state or region.

Here's a for instance. That all white state, with high trust levels, might manifest as people not being as paranoid about locking their doors or being startled at night by noises in the house or the backyard. The white homeowner in a highly multicultural state will be less trusting of his neighbors, even white neighbors, and so that noise in the middle of the night will make him more suspicious. Right here we create a scenario for a different response, perhaps armed response, which can result in different outcomes with respect to manslaughter or homicide, even when the victim is also white, perhaps a family member coming into the home late at night.

Diversity being corrosive to social capital levels within a society is a pretty solid social science finding.

 

[Toro]

Most white murders are white on white murders. It's close to 90%. It has nothing to do with whether blacks or Hispanics are nearby.

Sure it does. Diversity destroys society. It corrodes trust, even within racial groups. In increases tensions, even within racial groups.

A state, or region, which is all white, or nearly so, will have higher social capital metrics than the white community found within a larger, multicultural state or region.

Here's a for instance. That all white state, with high trust levels, might manifest as people not being as paranoid about locking their doors or being startled at night by noises in the house or the backyard. The white homeowner in a highly multicultural state will be less trusting of his neighbors, even white neighbors, and so that noise in the middle of the night will make him more suspicious. Right here we create a scenario for a different response, perhaps armed response, which can result in different outcomes with respect to manslaughter or homicide, even when the victim is also white, perhaps a family member coming into the home late at night.

Diversity being corrosive to social capital levels within a society is a pretty solid social science finding.

Blacks living next door is why whites kill each other.

Right.



Maybe the reason why blacks kill each other is because there are so many white people around.

lol

Or, maybe it's because white people love their guns, and it's so much easier to kill someone if you have a gun.

 

[Rotagilla]

Well I have known lots of people who have never needed one and neither have I. Heck I don't know anyone who has used one for defense. I'm really not sure why so many people think they need one. You are far more likely to be accidently shot than murdered with a gun. A study showed you are far more likely to be shot if you carry a gun. Stop being so paranoid and scared.

Yeah..well, that's all quite vague.."a study showed..."..I've seen THAT before..LMAO

Like I said, if you are ever in a situation where you need to defend yourself, I hope you remember all the people you know who never used a gun for self defense..I'm sure that will give you a feeling of moral superiority as the criminals beat the shit out of you....or rape/rob/carjack your wife/sister/mother/grandmother/daughter....

Look, I've never used a fire extinguisher to put out a fire in my house....but I still keep 2 handy.

Here you go.
Carrying a gun increases risk of getting shot and killed - science-in-society - 06 October 2009 - New Scientist

So because of all those things that are very unlikely to happen I should have a gun? Even though you are far more likely to be accidentally shot than ever need a gun for those reasons I should carry a gun? Even though carrying a gun makes you more likely to be shot?

How many times have people been killed by accidental fire extinguisher?

When that Vegas couple shot those cops and then went to the Walmart the only guy they killed was the armed guy. Having a gun isn't always a good thing.

Whatever, brain...you're right everyone else is wrong.
I hope you remember what you said here if you or a family member ever get attacked by criminals.