If Jefferson founded Republican Party in 1793, liberalism has no place in our history

[JakeStarkey]

That Jefferson opposed Hamilton and his version of American economic and cultural goals: yes.

That either were liberal or conservative by our standards today is impossible to pin down: different world, different times.

EB, at the very least, is guilty of 'pre-sentism' and a lack of understanding the era of federalism.

 

[DriftingSand]

That Jefferson opposed Hamilton and his version of American economic and cultural goals: yes.

That either were liberal or conservative by our standards today is impossible to pin down: different world, different times.

EB, at the very least, is guilty of 'pre-sentism' and a lack of understanding the era of federalism.

I'd say that Hamilton was likely the more liberal of the two. I believe he was more fond of a big, powerful, central government than Jefferson was but I'd have to brush up on my history to be sure. I certainly lean towards Jeffersonian politics and philosophy.

 

[bendog]

Well, he and strom had weakness for the darker side, but beyond that .... fail.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I think it would be more accurate to say the Jeffersonian's were against big conservative government,

of course thats 100% illiterate and liberal. THe battle in human history from Plato forward was between freedom (modern conservative) and big government ( modern liberal). So, big government is by definition liberal! Jefferson is by definition conservative.

A child could grasp that just not your typical liberal!

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

That Jefferson opposed Hamilton and his version of American economic and cultural goals: yes.

That either were liberal or conservative by our standards today is impossible to pin down: different world, different times.

EB, at the very least, is guilty of 'pre-sentism' and a lack of understanding the era of federalism.

I'd say that Hamilton was likely the more liberal of the two. I believe he was more fond of a big, powerful, central government than Jefferson was but I'd have to brush up on my history to be sure. I certainly lean towards Jeffersonian politics and philosophy.

yes Jefferson despised Hamilton and left the Washington administration to form the Republican party with Madison to bury Hamilton and his Federalist big govt liberal scams.

 

[regent]

I think it would be more accurate to say the Jeffersonian's were against big conservative government,

of course thats 100% illiterate and liberal. THe battle in human history from Plato forward was between freedom (modern conservative) and big government ( modern liberal). So, big government is by definition liberal! Jefferson is by definition conservative.

A child could grasp that just not your typical liberal!

Next Jefferson will become a female and Truman a Republican. Jefferson disliked big government until he became the government and then it seems his fear began to die, slowly to be true, but dying.
If this were 1776 many of us would be fearful of big government but this is not 1776 and liberals now see government as a tool to be used to better people's lives. In 1776 the elites saw government as their tool. The government tool has now changed hands, democracy can do that. Welcome to 2014.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

and liberals now see government as a tool to be used to better people's lives.

Yes Hitler Stalin and Mao were excellent examples of what liberalism can do!! Why do you think our liberals spied for Stalin and gave him the bomb? Why do you think our liberals attacked and destroyed the American family and schools attempting to better peoples lives?!! And why do you think they drove 40 millions jobs away with their taxes and unions if not to better peoples lives?

 

[regent]

and liberals now see government as a tool to be used to better people's lives.

Yes Hitler Stalin and Mao were excellent examples of what liberalism can do!! Why do you think our liberals spied for Stalin and gave him the bomb? Why do you think our liberals attacked and destroyed the American family and schools attempting to better peoples lives?!! And why do you think they drove 40 millions jobs away with their taxes and unions if not to better peoples lives?

I was discussing Jefferson and his take on the size of government and you bring in Stalin and Mao. That's desperation.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

and liberals now see government as a tool to be used to better people's lives.

Yes Hitler Stalin and Mao were excellent examples of what liberalism can do!! Why do you think our liberals spied for Stalin and gave him the bomb? Why do you think our liberals attacked and destroyed the American family and schools attempting to better peoples lives?!! And why do you think they drove 40 millions jobs away with their taxes and unions if not to better peoples lives?

I was discussing Jefferson and his take on the size of government and you bring in Stalin and Mao. That's desperation.

why when they are related!!

"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny."- Thomas Jefferson

 

[JakeStarkey]

Eddy is what far right nuttiness does: leads to the Hitlers and such.

 

[Pogo]

That Jefferson opposed Hamilton and his version of American economic and cultural goals: yes.

That either were liberal or conservative by our standards today is impossible to pin down: different world, different times.

EB, at the very least, is guilty of 'pre-sentism' and a lack of understanding the era of federalism.

I'd say that Hamilton was likely the more liberal of the two. I believe he was more fond of a big, powerful, central government than Jefferson was but I'd have to brush up on my history to be sure. I certainly lean towards Jeffersonian politics and philosophy.

Your second sentence is correct, but that makes him less liberal, not more.

 

[Pogo]

Jefferson's party also used the word "Democratic". ?

I will bet you $10,000 that it did not use the word Democratic in the 18th Century. Bet? Yes or no? 1000 primary sources can confirm or deny this.

So, we have established that Jefferson's Party and the modern version went/go by the name Republican and more importantly both stood for very very limited govt or freedom from big liberal govt.

Are you catching on now?

I think it would be more accurate to say the Jeffersonian's were against big conservative government, as Britain's, not big liberal government. When did America have big liberal government until it was allowed under the new liberal Constitution?

Exactly -- but trying to converse with Special Ed is like trying to discuss elements of microbiology with Pee Wee Herman.

 

[Agit8r]

Jefferson's party also used the word "Democratic". ?

I will bet you $10,000 that it did not use the word Democratic in the 18th Century. Bet? Yes or no? 1000 primary sources can confirm or deny this.

So, we have established that Jefferson's Party and the modern version went/go by the name Republican and more importantly both stood for very very limited govt or freedom from big liberal govt.

Are you catching on now?

Around that time, yes:

"Is there not, my friend, reason to believe, that the principles of Democratic Republicanism are already better understood than they were before; and that by the continued efforts of Men of Science and Virtue, they will extend more and more till the turbulent and destructive Spirit of War shall cease?—*The proud oppressors over the Earth shall be totally broken down and those classes of Men who have hitherto been the victims of their rage and cruelty shall perpetually enjoy perfect Peace and Safety till time shall be no more."
-- Samuel Adams; letter to Thomas Jefferson (Nov, 18th 1801)

"We of the United States, you know, are constitutionally and conscientiously democrats."
-- Thomas Jefferson; from letter to P. S. Dupont de Nemours (April 24, 1816)

 

[Agit8r]

That Jefferson opposed Hamilton and his version of American economic and cultural goals: yes.

That either were liberal or conservative by our standards today is impossible to pin down: different world, different times.

EB, at the very least, is guilty of 'pre-sentism' and a lack of understanding the era of federalism.

I'd say that Hamilton was likely the more liberal of the two. I believe he was more fond of a big, powerful, central government than Jefferson was but I'd have to brush up on my history to be sure. I certainly lean towards Jeffersonian politics and philosophy.

I'll help you brush up:

"legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property, only taking care to let their subdivisions go hand in hand with the natural affections of the human mind. The descent of property of every kind therefore to all the children, or to all the brothers and sisters, or other relations in equal degree is a politic measure, and a practicable one. Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise."
-- Thomas Jefferson; from letter to James Madison, (Oct. 28, 1785)

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

That Jefferson opposed Hamilton and his version of American economic and cultural goals: yes.

That either were liberal or conservative by our standards today is impossible to pin down: different world, different times.

EB, at the very least, is guilty of 'pre-sentism' and a lack of understanding the era of federalism.

I'd say that Hamilton was likely the more liberal of the two. I believe he was more fond of a big, powerful, central government than Jefferson was but I'd have to brush up on my history to be sure. I certainly lean towards Jeffersonian politics and philosophy.

I'll help you brush up:

"legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property, only taking care to let their subdivisions go hand in hand with the natural affections of the human mind. The descent of property of every kind therefore to all the children, or to all the brothers and sisters, or other relations in equal degree is a politic measure, and a practicable one. Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise."
-- Thomas Jefferson; from letter to James Madison, (Oct. 28, 1785)

of course one quote does not tell you much especially when property was granted by govt and inequality was caused by govt!!

I'll help you brush up:

"Our wish is that...[there be] maintained that state of property,
equal or unequal, which results to every man from his own industry
or that of his fathers." --37)Thomas Jefferson: 2nd Inaugural
Address, 1805.

"To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father's has acquired too much, in order to spare to
others, who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of
association--the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it." --38)Thomas Jefferson: Note
in Tracy's "Political Economy," 1816.

Do you see why we are 100% positive a liberal will be slow?

 

[Agit8r]

when property was granted by govt and inequality was caused by govt!!

Which is precisely how it is now.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

when property was granted by govt and inequality was caused by govt!!

Which is precisely how it is now.

now we have lib govt massively interfering with families and business causing huge inequality.

 

[Agit8r]

when property was granted by govt and inequality was caused by govt!!

Which is precisely how it is now.

now we have lib govt massively interfering with families and business causing huge inequality.

Really? Examples?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Which is precisely how it is now.

now we have lib govt massively interfering with families and business causing huge inequality.

Really? Examples?

Too easy!!! welfare programs destroyed the American family and the highest tax rates in the world drove many corporations in whole or in part off shore thus creating huge inequality! See why we are 100% positive a liberal will be slow?

 

[Agit8r]

now we have lib govt massively interfering with families and business causing huge inequality.

Really? Examples?

Too easy!!! welfare programs destroyed the American family and the highest tax rates in the world drove many corporations in whole or in part off shore thus creating huge inequality! See why we are 100% positive a liberal will be slow?

I asked for examples and you gave talking points uncorroborated by any evidence.