CDZ I want to present this in this forum hopefully to get some real dialogue

[Care4all]

But EVERY cancer patient is TOLD they will probably die of something that is not directly cancer.. And that they can not AFFORD exposure to infections of any kind

That's true, my hubby's dad had metastasized cancer, terminal when diagnosed, but died from heart failure, but it was the cancer that caused that...

But with these covid patient deaths of people with preexisting conditions that I've seen reported were things like hypertension, or diabetes, and these people could have lived another 20 to 30 years with medication without this corona virus.... So to me, unless they are on their deathbed before contracting the virus, like with a terminal cancer, then the virus, is what did them in....

Sure.. It's complicated and being DEBATED right now all over the world.. And as the BBC article said, when doctors are under stress, they're gonna go with what the patient was TREATED for. And politicians are gonna tell health dept to chalk them ALL up to Covid.. But you and both know that's not accurate.. Maybe the time to be ACCURATE about this is a year or two away...

I know the situation.. My oncologist calls me her "happiest" patient.. I was diagnosed with CLL in my late 40s.. My immune system is pretty weak, but I've never been treated for it.. And infections of ANY KIND are what might kill me when normal people just had an "infected" hangnail and never needed med help. If I die from an infected hangnail and I had Covid -- It would NOT be the Covid that killed me...

That's a hard one flacal.... if you hadn't caught covid, would you likely, still be around? Yes.

So to me, the Covid was the cause of your death, with your compromised immune system.... yes, I can understand that if your system had not been compromised with your other condition, you likely would have lived.... but you were living, with your condition, prior to dying after contracting covid....

I can see the argument on both sides...

I hope you are taking every precaution possible! Hunker down! PLEASE do not go out of your house grocery shopping or for anything, right now! Have your wife or family or neighbor do it for you!! Are cases low in Tennessee?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

I hope you are taking every precaution possible! Hunker down! PLEASE do not go out of your house grocery shopping or for anything, right now! Have your wife or family or neighbor do it for you!! Are cases low in Tennessee?

That’s good advice.

 

[flacaltenn]

They will, and you still have not explained what caused the April spike in deaths if the C19 virus isn’t really killing anybody.

Don't accuse me of stuff I've never done.. This is the Clean Debate forum.. Ya clueless as to what that means?

In the first five days of April, 1,125 people were pronounced dead in their homes or on the street in New York City, more than eight times the deaths recorded during the same period in 2019, according to the Fire Department.

Your 1st version of that chart said NOTHING about NYork.. And you've really proved nothing useful here about the lethality of the virus because NY was hit 10 times HARDER than the majority of states. And the critique I 1st gave told you that mortality RATE is static, not time varying.. You didn't understand that.. And that it was normalized and based on #Infected not a "per capita"... THAT is the "risk factor" for people to consider.. If you're healthy and under 60 -- you have about a 99.925% of surviving it or not even KNOW that you got it...

Also when showing this versus time -- you'll note "deaths from all OTHER sources rack up a pretty good toll in NY EVERY DAY EVERY WEEK of the year.. This epidemic will peak and fall back in 3 months time.. So in terms of YEARLY deaths, we haven't even hit 50,000 in the ENTIRE USA.. But those "other sources" will go MUCH HIGHER than that by year's end...

 

[flacaltenn]

What is the SCALE on the vertical axis of that graph?? Can you READ the data point for week 2.5 or 3 for the Red Covid line for the class? Or don't you know that the scaling and legends of graphs are the MOST important part.

the scaling on the vertical line and the horizontal lines are equally spaced so there is no distortion. Your math was do horribly wrong , now you are going after the picture.

No -- my math was off because I ASSUMED these were national numbers -- NOT just for a state which has about 40% of the cases/deaths by their lonesomes. And I'll wager that YOU didn't realize this either.

NYC and their Big Bird mayor bought the farm on this one.. And the Governor had to step in and be the responsible adult.. Wouldn't be surprised when the dust clears if 15 to 25% of NY residents HAD the Covid and were either unaware or didn't seek med attention..

Question to you is -- Since there is no LACK of CLEAR medically enabled data analysis out there -- WHY do you spend hours defending some "mashup" about NY state that appears on a random website, when you could just go to the Current Events forum sticky section and get CLEAR and DETAILED CDC analysis of the epidemic???

 

[flacaltenn]

That's a hard one flacal.... if you hadn't caught covid, would you likely, still be around? Yes.

Could go from an infected hangnail too.. (that's not likely, but argumentative) -- and the cause of death would NOT be "infected hangnail"... That would be too simplistic for any doctor to use...

Just like a person on dialysis with a port in their chest is VERY likely to die of systemic infection... But the death certificate is gonna say "systemic infection SECONDARY to complete renal failure:"... Don't ask me how I know that -- but I've seen it. So the severely chronic asthmatic patient ALREADY has a highly BOOSTED chance of dying from Covid -- and THAT should be noted on the death certification because that's a FACTUAL cause of death.. In fact, from the AGE mortality statistics for COVID an 80 yr with an UNKNOWN medical history has about a SIXTY TIMES HIGHER Covid death risk than a similar 50 yr old. We recognize that and statistics for death should REFLECT that..

 

[flacaltenn]

I hope you are taking every precaution possible! Hunker down! PLEASE do not go out of your house grocery shopping or for anything, right now! Have your wife or family or neighbor do it for you!! Are cases low in Tennessee?

Taking only reasonable risk.. Lots of trail hikes and yard work.. I do all the shopping and cooking, but can stock for 10 days a time. Not bad in my county, but slightly higher in Nashville.. Gotta re-open soon.. Or I'm goin on X-anax to relieve my Chinese food withdrawal anxiety...

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Your 1st version of that chart said NOTHING about NYork..

D. Eagle figured it out. I posted both. I’ve been referring to NYC in most of my posts because the spike in hospitalizations and dead bodies piling up in makeshift morgues there are clearly obvious to observant people who are willing believe their own eyes..

And you've really proved nothing useful here about the lethality of the virus because NY was hit 10 times HARDER than the majority of states.

I’m not trying to prove the lethality of the virus. The lethality will be what it will be. That should be obvious. Im focused on what we know at this point such as this virus caused a major spike in deaths in NYC. There are those in this thread that don’t believe that it is happening.

And the critique I 1st gave told you that mortality RATE is static, not time varying.. You didn't understand that.. And that it was normalized and based on #Infected not a "per capita"... THAT is the "risk factor" for people to consider.. If you're healthy and under 60 -- you have about a 99.925% of surviving it or not even KNOW that you got it...

So what? There are dead bodies being stacked up in makeshift morgues in NYC while a novel virus is infecting millions around the world. And your interest is .”If you're healthy and under 60 -- you have about a 99.925% of surviving it”

The chart you discuss as fake simply proves the spike exists and why the makeshift morgues are parked outside the hospitals.

That‘s it. But It does not fit a certain political narrative does it?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

WHY do you spend hours defending some "mashup" about NY state that appears on a random website, when you could just go to the Current Events forum sticky section and get CLEAR and DETAILED CDC analysis of the epidemic???

The mashup is the best visualization of the spike of deaths in NYC that I could find. And the curve represented matches what the eyes and ears can see and hear regarding the medical crisis taking place with our fellow Americans in real life.

The Downplayers : Crisis deniers are so befuddled to the hilt over a simple and observable spike In COVID19 and related deaths they cannot do simple math or admit there is a medical crisis taking place in the World’s Capitol of CAPITALISM.,

Why do I need a different chart to defend.

This one is perfect and accurate.

If there is a chart that shows no abnormally high spike in deaths in NYC in April right now I would love to see it.

 

[Mac-7]

If a person has Cancer and eventually dies from a cold, we don't say the person died of a cold.

sure we do....

if a person has cancer, and they are hit by a car and killed, we do not say they died of cancer....

if a person has cancer, and they died of pneumonia, the cause of death is pneumonia....

COVID is a viral pneumonia in those who get sick, is my understanding.... all deaths are from this viral Pneumonia, regardless of their underlying conditions..... or no underlying conditions.... pneumonia is what kills them..... I had heard????

https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.2020200274

Until the chinese disease came along we did not halt the entire nation for the sake of people with underlying conditions

but now we do

which sounds heroic until we see the harm thats been done to everyone by crashing the economy

 

[NotfooledbyW]

until we see the harm thats been done to everyone by crashing the economy

Who crashed Trump’s economy? Was it the possibility that 2.2 million could die if we did not shut the non-essential plus education essential parts of the economy down. Or is it a Lib hoax?

 

[Mac-7]

until we see the harm thats been done to everyone by crashing the economy

Who crashed TrumpO’s economy?

The chinese disease

 

[NotfooledbyW]

The chinese disease

yes, A virus from China shut much of the global economy down which was necessary in order to protect the most vulnerable .

What harm is worse than death?

You wrote “which sounds heroic until we see the harm thats been done to everyone by crashing the economy”

Are you saying the economic calamity and harm was avoidable if we had capitalist/free market heroes instead of Medical and scientific heroes?

 

[Mac-7]

What harm is worse than death?

For the living?

poverty and hunger come to mind

I think the initial response to the chinese disease will debated for many years.

but whats done is done

the immediate question is how long can the living afford to remain in lockdown?

and the answer is not much longer

 

[Care4all]

That's a hard one flacal.... if you hadn't caught covid, would you likely, still be around? Yes.

Could go from an infected hangnail too.. (that's not likely, but argumentative) -- and the cause of death would NOT be "infected hangnail"... That would be too simplistic for any doctor to use...

Just like a person on dialysis with a port in their chest is VERY likely to die of systemic infection... But the death certificate is gonna say "systemic infection SECONDARY to complete renal failure:"... Don't ask me how I know that -- but I've seen it. So the severely chronic asthmatic patient ALREADY has a highly BOOSTED chance of dying from Covid -- and THAT should be noted on the death certification because that's a FACTUAL cause of death.. In fact, from the AGE mortality statistics for COVID an 80 yr with an UNKNOWN medical history has about a SIXTY TIMES HIGHER Covid death risk than a similar 50 yr old. We recognize that and statistics for death should REFLECT that..

yes, your hang nail is just an example and playing on that.....here are some thoughts

-the hang nail is something you did, not a virus that you caught, which has also caused the death of people that are not at risk....

-it makes some people sick, even without any underlying medical issues, it can cause a viral Pneumonia... yes, the super healthy can beat it at home.

-If there was no Corona virus, is it likely that the person being treated for lifelong Asthma would have died the week they died? Or the woman being treated for Breast Cancer would have died the week they died from Corona? Or the person being treated for high blood pressure would have died the week they died from the deadly viral pneumonia?

I know I've said that before, but I can't shake it....

If my husband had high blood pressure, and was on meds for it for years and had it under control, then died from corona virus, viral Pneumonia....

if anyone were to try to tell me that he died of hyper tension, I'd likely slap them in the face....

to me and all around that knew him, he died, because he caught the Corona Virus.... and not because he had high blood pressure or a high heart beat or hypertension etc...

 

[Care4all]

If a person has Cancer and eventually dies from a cold, we don't say the person died of a cold.

sure we do....

if a person has cancer, and they are hit by a car and killed, we do not say they died of cancer....

if a person has cancer, and they died of pneumonia, the cause of death is pneumonia....

COVID is a viral pneumonia in those who get sick, is my understanding.... all deaths are from this viral Pneumonia, regardless of their underlying conditions..... or no underlying conditions.... pneumonia is what kills them..... I had heard????

https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.2020200274

Until the chinese disease came along we did not halt the entire nation for the sake of people with underlying conditions

but now we do

which sounds heroic until we see the harm thats been done to everyone by crashing the economy

we didn't crash the economy....

-All sports shut down all venues

-Wall Street crashed the stock market

they began the PANIC

ALL before most states even shut down non essential businesses....

 

[flacaltenn]

If my husband had high blood pressure, and was on meds for it for years and had it under control, then died from corona virus, viral Pneumonia....

if anyone were to try to tell me that he died of hyper tension, I'd likely slap them in the face....

If that's the ONLY chronic issue -- I'd slap them also.. But the body's ability to FIGHT and the restrictions on what docs can USE to TREAT -- are severely compromised for OTHER more serious pre existing conditions.. About 60% of men over 50 are on statin drugs.. It's too successful and prevalent to be a consideration here. But CongHeartFailure or severe asthma would be better arguments.

 

[flacaltenn]

D. Eagle figured it out. I posted both. I’ve been referring to NYC in most of my posts because the spike in hospitalizations and dead bodies piling up in makeshift morgues there are clearly obvious to observant people who are willing believe their own eyes..

NYC is the most drastic outlier... We learn nothing about the lethality of the disease from their numbers.. Except that it STILL is only deadly for the aged and the folks with severe pre existing med conditions.. Or CONFINED to nursing homes, assisted living.

 

[Leo123]

If my husband had high blood pressure, and was on meds for it for years and had it under control, then died from corona virus, viral Pneumonia....

Women give men high blood pressure....It would be your fault.

 

[Leo123]

until we see the harm thats been done to everyone by crashing the economy

Who crashed Trump’s economy? Was it the possibility that 2.2 million could die if we did not shut the non-essential plus education essential parts of the economy down. Or is it a Lib hoax?

Who shut down the Economy? Dr. Fauci et al who wildly overestimated the number of deaths. Time to open up and stop this 3 ring circus.

 

[Crick]

I don't easily abide monologues-

I want to talk about intellectual honesty. I posted this in another thread

Rush Limbaugh Floats Theory That Coronavirus Deaths Are Being Inflated to Push an Agenda

Conservative talk-radio host and recent Presidential Medal of Freedom honoree Rush Limbaugh on Thursday floated the theory that deaths from coronavirus have been inflated so that governments could further “the policies they have put in place.”Citing the latest record-breaking unemployment claims...

www.yahoo.com

I'm using that article as an example because I use the term intellectual honesty a lot- Rush, is a great example as well as our own beloved, I'm sure, PoliticalChic- I've said for years Rush is very intelligent, but he is hyper-partisan. I've told our very own, beloved, I'm sure, PoliticalChic, the same thing- I give them their just due for their intelligence, (and I'll add now, their tenacity as there is a lot to be said for that trait) but I can't abide their hyper-partisan intellect. Both are intelligent enough to know better and the evidence is overwhelming that there is very little difference in the Party elite outside their rhetoric, which is used as a tool to keep citizens divided. Any half wit can see there is no difference. Hitting a brick wall at 100 or at 90 still is hitting a brick wall. The only (maybe) difference is the rate of descent to the same destination- and that rate of descent is accelerating almost daily.

In the article it says what it says- I'm not going to give away the punch line- you have to read it and make your own determination.

I don't actually see a question or proposition to discuss here. Most of your responders seem to think you want to talk about Rush Limbaugh and the possibility of inflated COVID-19 fatality numbers, but you state up front that are using that article as an example and make note repeatedly of intellectual honesty, but that's more than a little vague. You haven't come back yet in response to any of the several folks who've taken up your invitation, so, could you possibly clarify precisely what it is you'd like to debate?