CDZ I guess it's time to ask the question:

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by task0778, Aug 17, 2017.

  1. task0778
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    task0778 Silver Member Supporting Member

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    Should we have free speech in this country or not? Obviously there are some limitations that have already been defined by law and by the SCOTUS, which is how it should be. But other than that, who gets to deny somebody, ANYBODY, their rights to speech? Does it matter what that person's or group's message is? Does it matter if that message is discriminatory based on race or religion or politics or anything else?

    Looks to me like we have a double standard at work here, especially in regard to the MSM. Does the outrage against the ANTIFAs match that against the white supremacists? I don't think so. This whole incident should have been one big fat nothing burger, but the ANTIFAs people wanted to turn it into a political issue and with the help of the MSM they did just that, not caring one bit if their actions lead to violence and possibly hoping that it would. And it did, it takes 2 sides to make a confrontation that was totally unnecessary; certainly a reasonable amount of discretion was missing on both sides and no one should escape some responsibility for what happened. BUT - the chief culprit in this whole sorry affair wasn't the WSers, it was the ANTIFAsers who IMHO showed up to cause trouble for political purposes.

    So - back to the question: should we have free speech in this country or not? Should we condemn anybody or any group who denies that right to somebody else? Doesn't look like that happened in this case.
     
  2. yiostheoy
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    yiostheoy Gold Member

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    Dumbazz rhetorical question.

    Free speech is fine as long as you don't yell "fire!" in a crowded theatre.

    Protesting is fine too, especially if you have a permit.

    Rioting is not good however. Both sides began to riot. Shame on them both.
     
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  3. PredFan
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    PredFan Platinum Member

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    Yes, we should have free speech. The left doesn't want free speech unless they approve. Kind of reminds me of the little fat kid in NK.
     
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  4. Billy_Kinetta
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    Billy_Kinetta Paladin of the Lost Hour Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    We have free speech under the 1st Amendment. It's not a question of should we, we do.

    The "should be" part is that it should be defended at all costs, and by all Americans using all necessary methods to defend it.

    A right not exercised and defended is soon lost, be it a natural right or otherwise.
     
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  5. task0778
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    task0778 Silver Member Supporting Member

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    When was the last time a left-leaning liberal was denied the chance to speak at a college campus somewhere?

    As I understand it, the Unite the Right group had a permit to exercise the freedom of speech in Charlottesville but the ANTIFAs people didn't. You think maybe they were there to deny the right to free speech on the part of the UTR group? I kinda think so, and they showed up armed too. Which sorta indicates maybe they showed up to start trouble too. There has been example after example of Leftists denying speech by people with an opposing view; I don't see many examples of Rightists doing that, in fact now that I think about it, NONE. So yeah, we do have the right but it sure looks to me like one side is trying very hard to deny that right to the other side. And then pointing the finger of blame and saying their message is racist or whatever. But you know what? THE MESSAGE DOESN'T MATTER. the Left is trying to say that it does and they have the right and even the responsibility to denounce and deny that message from being heard. So, our right to free speech isn't what it should be right now, and there's no doubt at all who's at fault for that.
     
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  6. Fishlore
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    Fishlore Silver Member

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    Why is it impossible for the right to express an idea without throwing in some sort of jibe about the left. Is it all they ever think about?
     
  7. task0778
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    task0778 Silver Member Supporting Member

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    No, but in this case it's justified. Most of the time both sides deserve some blame for the various problems we face, but when it comes to the exercise of free speech it is the Left who is primarily at fault here. It is they who are doing their best to shut down free speech IMHO as much as they can et away with. And not just the ANTIFAs and fringe people either. Look at the MSM and Academia, it's the Left is who trying to curtail speech and many of them are not adverse to using violence to do it either.
     
  8. jwoodie
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    jwoodie Gold Member Supporting Member

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    Dumbazz response. Too bad the OP was so far over your head.
     
  9. Fishlore
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    Fishlore Silver Member

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    I'd agree with you in the sense that the right wants unlimited free speech (which we do not have at this time) while the left wishes to extend the limits on hate speech and incitement. There is a reasonable case to be made both for and against the left's wish to extend the limits on free speech -- only a small libertarian group seriously wants to abolish all limits.

    In my view the cause for today's debate is technology. When the First Amendment was ratified the technology of communication was radically limited and the audience for oral speech was much smaller and more homogeneous.

    The liberal Enlightenment which gave us our free speech was focused on political speech and mostly concerned with free thought and the free expression of ideas. The effects of modern advertising and mass media were unimaginable.
     
  10. outrigger
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    outrigger Rookie

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    Did the city of Charlottesville conspire to deny the rights of the legally permitted Nazis by intentionally allowing the counterprotestors in, and then too close, resulting in the rally being declared unlawful?
     

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