How we know Hitler was right wing.

[Saigon]

Prior coming to this board, I had never heard anyone suggest Hitler was anything but right wing. This may be something to do with living in Europe where the awareness of fascism is so very high because it occured here, or maybe it's something our education system focuses on. Or maybe coincidence.

Either way, recently I've noticed two posters recently insist Hitler was left wing....and even liberal.

Here is SSDD:

Hitler's government was called right wing by communists and socialists of the time, but his governemnt was still socialist. It consisted of a large and powerful central authority which is, by definition, not a conservative, or classically lberal government

Right wing and left wing are two wings of the same house and the house is socialism.

In cases like this, I am not sure facts have a great deal of impact, but maybe it is interesting to discuss some of the features of Fascism anyway.

Let's start with some quotes from Hitler:

"The main plank in the Nationalist Socialist program is to abolish the liberalistic concept of the individual and the Marxist concept of humanity and to substitute for them the folk community, rooted in the soil and bound together by the bond of its common blood."

"The German state is gravely attacked by Marxism."

"In the years 1913 and 1914, I… expressed the conviction that the question of the future of the German nation was the question of destroying Marxism."

"In the economic sphere Communism is analogous to democracy in the political sphere."

"The Marxists will march with democracy until they succeed in indirectly obtaining for their criminal aims the support of even the national intellectual world, destined by them for extinction."

"Marxism itself systematically plans to hand the world over to the Jews."

"The Jewish doctrine of Marxism rejects the aristocratic principle of Nature and replaces the eternal privilege of power and strength by the mass of numbers and their dead weight."

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitler.htm

 

[Saigon]

For anyone interested in this topic, there are a couple of books I'd really recommend:

Hubris & Nemesis (2 volumes) by Ian Kershaw

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Hitler-1889-1936-Hubris-Ian-Kershaw/dp/0393320359]Hitler: 1889-1936 Hubris: Ian Kershaw: 9780393320350: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]

This details hitler's life in immense detail, but explains a lot about his politics and thinking.

Eichmann in Jersualem by Hannah Arendt

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Eichmann-Jerusalem-Penguin-Classics-Hannah/dp/0143039881]Amazon.com: Eichmann in Jerusalem (Penguin Classics) (9780143039884): Hannah Arendt: Books[/ame]

Still the best book ever written on the Holocaust and the politics behind it.

The Court of the Red Tsar by Montefiore

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Stalin-Court-Simon-Sebag-Montefiore/dp/1400076781]Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar: Simon Sebag Montefiore: 9781400076789: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]

The best biography of Stalin also highlights how opposite his thinking was to Hitler's.

 

[Saigon]

Finaly, what seperates right wing tyranny from left wing tyranny are the facts of Capital and Class.

Socialism and Marxism are based around the worker and the working classes. Although Hitler appealed to the masses as well, his key support came from the upper classes. Socialism sought to destroy class. Fascism sought to entrench the classes even more deeply into society.

Socialism sought to remove capital from society. Fascism worked through capital, enriching the upper classes and using wealth to garner support. Hitler imagined a society in which capitalism and investment thrived - Stali imagined a society in which capitalism and investment did not exist.

There are other areas of difference as well. Hitler favoured:

Individualism over collectivism.
Merit over equality.
Competition over cooperation.
Capitalism over Marxism.
Nationalism over internationalism.
Exclusiveness over inclusiveness.
Common sense over theory or science.

Stalin's views were essentially the opposite in each instance.

 

[there4eyeM]

It's simple (VERY simple).

Certain elements class everything they do not like and everything that is damaging, bad or less than God's will as 'liberal', 'progressive', 'socialist' and, of course, 'communist'. While this tendency also exists to a degree with people who identify themselves as 'liberal' calling anyone to the right of Marx 'fascist', it is less pronounced.

Being neither 'left' nor 'right', both disturb me, but this story of Hitler being a leftist is the most glaringly absurd conclusion one can conceive of.

 

[jtpr312]

Who gives a crap, both leftist/Marxist governments and the Nazis are murdering bastards, the only difference being the Nazis where amatuers when it came to murdering their own citizens when compared to their Marxist brethren. I mean what Hitler did seems like an Ice Cream Social when compared to what Stalin and Mao did.

 

[there4eyeM]

No one is defending Stalin or Mao, at least certainly not I. The question is of some degree of reason and accuracy in debate.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Who gives a crap, both leftist/Marxist governments and the Nazis are murdering bastards, the only difference being the Nazis where amatuers when it came to murdering their own citizens when compared to their Marxist brethren. I mean what Hitler did seems like an Ice Cream Social when compared to what Stalin and Mao did.

So.................because both of them killed lots of people, that's what makes them equal?

I guess you thought Torquemada and the Crusades were the same as well, eh?

 

[Saigon]

Who gives a crap, both leftist/Marxist governments and the Nazis are murdering bastards, the only difference being the Nazis where amatuers when it came to murdering their own citizens when compared to their Marxist brethren. I mean what Hitler did seems like an Ice Cream Social when compared to what Stalin and Mao did.

I don't think Birkenau was an "ice cream social", and neither do you.

Stalin, Mao and Hitler was all tyrants and dictators, without question, but to understand anthing at all about modern politics, one has to understand the political spectrum from far left to far right, and where those men sat on that spectrum.

 

[there4eyeM]

Of course, the really basic question is not whether one set of ideologies is more evil than another, but how is it that people are prepared to go so far at the mere words of a director. What 'makes' people obey (obedience being a choice)?

 

[Saigon]

Exactly.

Describing any politician as being 'left wing' or 'right wing' does not condemn or condone his politics - it is merely a description.

I've never seen a left-wing posters try to suggest that Mao or Stalin were not left wing or were not dictators - until coming to this forum I'd never seen a righ-wing poster try to pretend Hitler was not right wing.

This kind of re-writing of history is dangerous and should concern people of all political persuasions.

 

[aaronleland]

But... I was told on this board that Obama was a Socialist, Marxist, Fascist, and Statist. One of you has to be wrong. I have to take the side of the guy with a picture of his dog and gun in his avatar.

 

[Saigon]

But... I was told on this board that Obama was a Socialist, Marxist, Fascist, and Statist. One of you has to be wrong. I have to take the side of the guy with a picture of his dog and gun in his avatar.

Indeed!

I think the problem is that words like 'fascist' have started to be used as generic insults. It's like kids on the school yard calling each other 'faggot' or 'queer'. The words have started to be used with no reference to their real, dictionary definition.

noun
[mass noun]

an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
(in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practices: this is yet another example of health fascism in action

Definition of fascism in Oxford Dictionaries (British & World English)

So while a leader of a left-wing party could become a tyrant or dictator, his becoming a Nazi or Fascist seems highly unlikely!

 

[aaronleland]

But... I was told on this board that Obama was a Socialist, Marxist, Fascist, and Statist. One of you has to be wrong. I have to take the side of the guy with a picture of his dog and gun in his avatar.

Indeed!

I think the problem is that words like 'fascist' have started to be used as generic insults. It's like kids on the school yard calling each other 'faggot' or 'queer'. The words have started to be used with no reference to their real, dictionary definition.

noun
[mass noun]

an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
(in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practices: this is yet another example of health fascism in action

Definition of fascism in Oxford Dictionaries (British & World English)

So while a leader of a left-wing party could become a tyrant or dictator, his becoming a Nazi or Fascist seems highly unlikely!

Agreed. The generic insult has even extended to the word "liberal" on this board. For instance, take a poster like G5000 or Bucs90. Most on this board would consider them both to be center-right. They are both reasonable posters who have disagreed with rightwingers in the past, and have been labeled liberals because of it. People either don't pay attention to who they are throwing their insults at, or they don't care.

 

[jtpr312]

Who gives a crap, both leftist/Marxist governments and the Nazis are murdering bastards, the only difference being the Nazis where amatuers when it came to murdering their own citizens when compared to their Marxist brethren. I mean what Hitler did seems like an Ice Cream Social when compared to what Stalin and Mao did.

So.................because both of them killed lots of people, that's what makes them equal?

I guess you thought Torquemada and the Crusades were the same as well, eh?

Why would I think that? 3000-5000 killed during the entire 350yrs of the Inquistion isn't "lots of people" and the Crusades were wars launched to retake lands that mulisms invaded and conquered, so no, they aren't even in the same category.

 

[jtpr312]

Who gives a crap, both leftist/Marxist governments and the Nazis are murdering bastards, the only difference being the Nazis where amatuers when it came to murdering their own citizens when compared to their Marxist brethren. I mean what Hitler did seems like an Ice Cream Social when compared to what Stalin and Mao did.

I don't think Birkenau was an "ice cream social", and neither do you.

Stalin, Mao and Hitler was all tyrants and dictators, without question, but to understand anthing at all about modern politics, one has to understand the political spectrum from far left to far right, and where those men sat on that spectrum.

Nope, but the 700,000-1,000,000 killed there is but a drop in the bucket when compared to the almost 130,000,000 killed by the communist regimes in just China and Russia alone, forget about the millions more killed by the other leftist regimes. The popular terms fascist liberal, femi-nazi or liberal fascism are quite fitting if you ask me. The left has adopted the worst of both fascism and marxism and the only thing in this nation keeping them from acting like Hitler, Mao or Stalin is that we have approx 80,000,000 armed citizens. In my opinion the very real reason why the left in this nation is doing it's damndest to infringe upon the Citizen's 2nd amendment rights.

 

[Saigon]

Jtpr -

I do agree with you that ultimately more people died under Stalin and Mao than under Hitler, although if we factor in people killed by Hitler's invasions in Europe it become a fairly close call.

This does not mean that every regime that kills millions of people is of the same ideology, though,

 

[jtpr312]

Jtpr -

I do agree with you that ultimately more people died under Stalin and Mao than under Hitler, although if we factor in people killed by Hitler's invasions in Europe it become a fairly close call.

This does not mean that every regime that kills millions of people is of the same ideology, though,

Well actually the total number of deaths world wide, including Germans, has been estimated to be 50,000,000-72,000,000, which includes those who died from war related starvation and disease, still only about half of those killed by the Communist regimes in just China and the USSR.

 

[editec]

Aa long aa one limits one's thinking to a left v right paradigm, you will continue to be fooled by politics.

The world just does not fit nicely into a simply SCALE to makes it easy for ignorant people to understand how the world works.

Arguing about a descriptive name is an exercise in silliness.

Hitler's government was what it was, it did what did.

What they called themselves is irrelvant compared to what it did, eh?

 

[Saigon]

Editec -

I totally agree, but to me the political horseshoe is stll central to our understanding of modern politics, and invaluable to people new to the field, or struggling to understand the terms. It's a great starting point, but of course it i not the whole story.

 

[Intense]

Sorry to disagree with you but you are just comparing different paths to the same end, Totalitarianism. The first Sacrifice to that end is Individual Identity. Progressive Statism (Modern Liberalism), abandoned the concept of Individual Rights before we were even born. You are plainly too caught up in the current to see. Hitler rose to power through the masses, not money, not birthright. I think you have a hard time seeing the dark side of Leftism. Does extreme Right lead to Totalitarianism? Yes. Does extreme Left lead to Totalitarianism? Yes. When Soft Tyranny turns to Hard Tyranny, can you even tell them apart?