How Liberalism Lost America

[shintao]

ahh last election Liberals got millions more votes.
sore losers anyone?

PRINCETON, NJ -- Thus far in 2009, 40% of Americans interviewed in national Gallup Poll surveys describe their political views as conservative, 35% as moderate, and 21% as liberal. This represents a slight increase for conservatism in the U.S. since 2008, returning it to a level last seen in 2004. The 21% calling themselves liberal is in line with findings throughout this decade, but is up from the 1990s.
"Conservatives" Are Single-Largest Ideological Group

Here are current polls, representing the last 4 polls this year, instead of 2009.

=================================== Republicans

CBS News/New York Times Poll. Sept. 10-14, 2010. N=990 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

.

"In general, is your opinion of the Republican Party favorable or not favorable?"

Favorable: 34%, 33%, 38%, 35%


FOX News/Opinion Dynamics Poll. April 6-7, 2010. N=900 registered voters nationwide. MoE ± 3.

.

"I'm going to read you the names of several individuals and groups. Please tell me whether you have a generally favorable or unfavorable opinion of each one. If you've never heard of one please just say so. The Republican Party."

Favorable: 40%, 42%, 36%, 41%

================================= Democrats
CBS News/New York Times Poll. Sept. 10-14, 2010. N=990 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

.

"In general, is your opinion of the Democratic Party favorable or not favorable?"
Favorable: 45%, 37%, 42%, 42%



FOX News/Opinion Dynamics Poll. April 6-7, 2010. N=900 registered voters nationwide. MoE ± 3.

.

"I'm going to read you the names of several individuals and groups. Please tell me whether you have a generally favorable or unfavorable opinion of each one. If you've never heard of one please just say so. The Democratic Party."

Favorable: 42%, 42%, 50%, 54%

Institutions (2)

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

progressive agenda. Not just Liberals, but cons as well.

What conservative rubs shoulders with communist? I'm not talking free trade or diplomacy. What conservative was at 10/2 with the communist? Or has had personnal dealings with them.

note; I will thank you for listing any individual, as I don't think there is a group.

The republlicans were in lock step with the NPR during Bush Sr.s Administration, sharing technology, RNC receiving campaign funds, and did you know that George Bush is the only president who the Chinese celebrate during New Years? He brought them oil companies so the Communist would have heat. Then along comes Bush jr. & we get the repeat. He lets China become a permanent member of the WTO, even had that in his 1st plank if you ever read it. And borrowed trillions to sustain taxcuts and wars, that you will be paying for to the NPR. There is probably a book on it somewhere. Richard Nixon took us into Russia, Bush Sr. took us into China. Bush Jr. let the Chinese slide when we found weapons caches in the Afghan mountains being used against our troops. Bush apologized to China for their pilot ramming a US spy plane in open waters. Then he attends several get togethers with China, and attends the Olympics.

Uh, you do realize that conservatives were quite fed-up with Bush, right?

 

[PoliticalChic]

1. If liberalism today was the Classical Liberalism of our Founders, all of us would be liberals. In fact, from the New Deal through the 50's Americans pretty much were liberals.

2. Liberalism took a major step toward the current formulation, and the separation from Classical Liberalism, with the publication of L. T. Hobhouse's “Liberalism”, of 1911. It was a pretty good restatement of Classical Liberalism at the beginning of the 20th century. But the text is interesting as, unlike some of the more commonly cited formulation [J.S. Mill for instance], Hobhouse argues that, even though wealth is produced by individuals, these same individual’s prosperity relied on the health and security of the community. Modern History Sourcebook: Hobhouse, Liberalism 1911

a. Even a casual perusal of Hobhouse would reveal more in common with today’s conservatives than today’s liberals!

b. The new view was adopted in the early 1900’s by Theodore Roosevelt’s “Bull Moose” Republican Party and Woodrow Wilson’s Democrats under the banner of “progressivism, but it was not until Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal that the actual term ‘liberal’ came into widespread use in the United States.

3. Today, liberals are viewed by many as permissive on social morality, including government programs that offer not merely indulgence, but appear to many to encourage lazy, ill-mannered, and sexually promiscuous conduct, gaming the system and making excuses for riots, violent crime, and other forms of anti-social behavior. Eric Alterman, “Why We’re Liberals,” p. 38

4. ‘Liberal’ became a pejorative, as in the following: “The favoring of blacks over whites and permissiveness toward drug abuse, illegitimacy, welfare fraud, street crime, homosexuality, anti-Americanism, as well as moral anarchy among the young.” Thomas and Mary Edsall, “Chain Reaction: The Impact of Race, Rights, and Taxes on American Politics,” p. 9

5. Other elements that turned many Americans against liberalism:

a. The use of courts rather than the electoral process to achieve liberal aims. Such Supreme Court decisions as Engle v. Vitale (1962) convinced many that liberals were about to attack traditional morality whenever possible. [The prayer in question: “Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our country. Amen.]

b. Complicated interrelationships between the various left wing groups, i.e., civil libertarians, socialists, communists, anarchists, populists, etc, melded all together in the eyes of much of the apolitical public. The actions of any of these groups often colored the perception of all.

c. Conservative thinking has been propelled by well-funded, and, more importantly, easily accessible institutions such as the American Enterprise Institute, and Heritage Foundation, which offer more than equivalent research and information to the Brookings Institution and the Urban League. Access has been multiplied by the advent of the Internet.

Today's conservatism is last year's liberalism because conservatism is always wrong. Liberals win the battles, conservatives accept the liberal victory and have no choice but to incorporate the consequences of that victory as part of their own philosophy.

How many conservatives today do you see opposing women's suffrage? for example.

So good to hear from you again, as your posts often give me the opportunity to set the record straight. As usual, your grasp of history is of a 'USAToday' level about a 'Wall Street Journal' subject.

1. Rather than deal with the hyperbolic "... conservatism is always wrong," let's stick to "women's suffrage," which, I seem to recall you mentioning more than once as a momentous achievement for liberalism.
a. The 19th amendment was passed in 1920. President Wilson has voice his support on January 9, 1918.
b. While Roosevelt has been the very first candidate for the Progressive Party, President Wilson is acknowledged as our first Progressive President.

2. Wilson, Taft, Roosevelt, and E.V. Debs ran for President in 19112.
a. Both Woodrow Wilson and William Howard Taft are opposed to federal women's suffrage. And then going into 1915, it finally gets on the ballot and the referendum in New York State and TR campaigns for it. It is defeated. In 1917 it's again on the ballot and this time it's passed. And so TR helps bring it in until there are enough states to go, to amend the Constitution. Woodrow Wilson gets on the bandwagon at the last minute and, in fact, Congress gets on it at the last minute because there are -- that's the important point -- there are very few males in politics who favor the women's issue. American Experience . The Presidents . Theodore Roosevelt | PBS

b. Wilson spoke for National women’s suffrage, very late in his Second term. It came after years of pressure, protest, and publicity. Far from being a supporter of Women’s rights, he had been a barrier. That the franchise was extended to women during his administration is not something he can actually take credit for.
Read more: Woodrow Wilson: The Reality | Quazen

c. His first term was spent blocking Women’s rights... America's Worst Presidents; Woodrow Wilson

d. And here is an indication that TR's heart may not have been into suffrage, either:
"Perhaps one reason why so many men who believe as emphatically as I do in woman's full equality with man take little interest in the suffrage movement is to be found in the very unfortunate actions of certain leaders in that movement, who seem desirous of associating it with disorderly conduct in public and with thoroughly degrading and vicious assaults upon the morality and the duty of women within and without marriage....
I would not force it upon them where, as a body, they do not wish it. ... Most of the women who I know best are against woman suffrage precisely because they approach life from the standpoint of duty. They are not interested in their "rights" so much as in their obligations."
Theodore Roosevelt, "Women's Rights; and the Duties of Both Men and Women," editorial in The Outlook, February 3, 1912.


And why did Wilson finally support suffrage? His second term:
"The election between Wilson and Charles Evans Hughes was extremely close, and for several days, uncertain. The idea that Wilson was popular or that the nation was behind him is a myth. " America's Worst Presidents; Woodrow Wilson

Seems to take the luster off of your challenge: "How many conservatives today do you see opposing women's suffrage?"

And now let's take a closer look at your hero:

3.Woodrow Wilson was a white supremacist; he accepted uncritically the post-Reconstruction South, and its methods that arranged to keep black Americans in their place. He, himself, was responsible for segregating government buildings. James Chace, "1912," P.43

a. In 1915, he advised his second wife, whose niece was to marry a Panamanian: “It would be bad enough at best to have anyone we love marry into a Central American family, because their is the presumption that the blood in not unmixed.” Louis Auchincloss, “Woodrow Wilson,” p.6.

b. Compare this with TR, who dined with Booker T. Washington, at the White House. (For this he was criticized by Congress, and never did so again.)

c. Blacks, of course, saw Wilson as a southern white supremacist: at Princeton, he banned blacks, and he supported a ‘Jim Crow’ South.

d. The filmmaker David W. Griffith quoted Wilson's two-volume history of the United States, now notorious for its racist view of Reconstruction, in his infamous masterpiece The Clansman, a paean to the Ku Klux Klan for its role in putting down "black-dominated" Republican state governments during Reconstruction. Griffith based the movie on a book by Wilson's former classmate, Thomas Dixon, whose obsession with race was "unrivaled until Mein Kampf." At a private White House showing, Wilson saw the movie, now retitled Birth of a Nation, and returned Griffith's compliment: "It is like writing history with lightning, and my only regret is that it is all so true." Griffith would go on to use this quotation in successfully defending his film against NAACP charges that it was racially inflammatory. Ode to Woodrow Wilson | UT Watch on the Web


4. Wilson had been revealed as a bigot by Hearst, and that bigotry extended beyond African-Americans, to Poles, Hungarians, and Italians: “Now there came multitudes of men of the lowest class from the south of Italy and men of the meaner sort out of Hungary and Poland, men out of the ranks where there was neither skill nor energy nor any initiative of quick intelligence; …” quoted in Link, “ The Road to the White House,” p. 381-382.

Bravo on your choice of heros!

 

[PoliticalChic]

Something I have a hard time understanding. How did liberals go from,

"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country."

To inviting actual socialist and communist groups to fund a gather in DC.


How did they drop so far that the very people that funded wars against communism, now rub shoulders with them?

I simply can't fathom that.

The Communists took the Dem Party over just like they said they would

I know the man that ran for President for the socialist party stopped b/c he thought the DNC had absorbed thier platform back in the 40's (?). But JFK was violently against the communist.

Was it just a steady degridation?

Could you be thinking of Eugene Victor Debs?

1. E.V.Debs was the Socialist candidate, in 1912, and Debs received the largest share of the popular vote ever by a Socialist candidate, and had later been convicted of violating Wilson’s Espionage and Sedition Acts. The jury found Debs guilty. Debs said to the jury: “while there is a lower class, I am in it, while there is a criminal element, I am of it, and where there is a soul in prison, I am not free.” Nick Salvatore, “Eugene V. Debs: Citizen and Socialist,” p. 295. Sentenced to ten years in prison.
2. For Debs, the Socialist, America needed government control of basic industries and a broad-based trade unionism. Chace, p.8 As a radical, Debs became the living symbol of discontent with the oppressive order of unrestrained capitalism.
3. He persuaded listeners that he was no doctrinaire Marxist, but one who understood the problems of working men and women in the new world of industrial capitalism. He had them envision a transcendent and fairer social order based on the brotherhood of man.
a. True to radical dogma, he believed that the power held by capitalist America should be transferred to those who made the products that created the wealth.
b. Debs called for a new ‘partnership,’ when “we have stopped clutching at each other’ threats, when we have stopped enslaving each other, we will stand together, hands clasped, and be friends. We will be comrades, we will be brothers, and we will begin the march to the grandest civilization the human race had ever known.” Ray Ginger, “The Bending Cross: A Biography of Eugene Victor Debs, “p. 266.

If so, this is the quote you had in mind:
Eugene V. Debs claimed that the Progressives’ bandana had replace the red flag of socialism. NYTimes, August 14, 1912 Debs: “My prediction that Roosevelt would steal our platform bodily has been fulfilled.”

 

[rdean]

What conservative rubs shoulders with communist? I'm not talking free trade or diplomacy. What conservative was at 10/2 with the communist? Or has had personnal dealings with them.

note; I will thank you for listing any individual, as I don't think there is a group.

The republlicans were in lock step with the NPR during Bush Sr.s Administration, sharing technology, RNC receiving campaign funds, and did you know that George Bush is the only president who the Chinese celebrate during New Years? He brought them oil companies so the Communist would have heat. Then along comes Bush jr. & we get the repeat. He lets China become a permanent member of the WTO, even had that in his 1st plank if you ever read it. And borrowed trillions to sustain taxcuts and wars, that you will be paying for to the NPR. There is probably a book on it somewhere. Richard Nixon took us into Russia, Bush Sr. took us into China. Bush Jr. let the Chinese slide when we found weapons caches in the Afghan mountains being used against our troops. Bush apologized to China for their pilot ramming a US spy plane in open waters. Then he attends several get togethers with China, and attends the Olympics.

Uh, you do realize that conservatives were quite fed-up with Bush, right?

 

[rdean]

Something I have a hard time understanding. How did liberals go from,

"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country."

To inviting actual socialist and communist groups to fund a gather in DC.


How did they drop so far that the very people that funded wars against communism, now rub shoulders with them?

I simply can't fathom that.

The Communists took the Dem Party over just like they said they would

Then how come the Republicans don't support the Democrats the way they do the Chinese?

Republicans love the Chinese SOOOOO much, they gave them 2.4 million American jobs from 2001 to 2008 and paid those companies to move to China with money they took from the American Middle Class. 2.4 trillion dollars tax cuts to corporations, 2.4 million jobs. See a connection?
Imagine if Republicans supported America they way they support China? It would be us that would have high speed trains instead of "gravel" roads.

Economic Crisis Forces Local Governments to Let Asphalt Roads Return to Gravel - WSJ.com

The GOP gave America a big old fashioned "face squat".

 

[PoliticalChic]

progressive agenda. Not just Liberals, but cons as well.

What conservative rubs shoulders with communist? I'm not talking free trade or diplomacy. What conservative was at 10/2 with the communist? Or has had personnal dealings with them.

note; I will thank you for listing any individual, as I don't think there is a group.

The republlicans were in lock step with the NPR during Bush Sr.s Administration, sharing technology, RNC receiving campaign funds, and did you know that George Bush is the only president who the Chinese celebrate during New Years? He brought them oil companies so the Communist would have heat. Then along comes Bush jr. & we get the repeat. He lets China become a permanent member of the WTO, even had that in his 1st plank if you ever read it. And borrowed trillions to sustain taxcuts and wars, that you will be paying for to the NPR. There is probably a book on it somewhere. Richard Nixon took us into Russia, Bush Sr. took us into China. Bush Jr. let the Chinese slide when we found weapons caches in the Afghan mountains being used against our troops. Bush apologized to China for their pilot ramming a US spy plane in open waters. Then he attends several get togethers with China, and attends the Olympics.

1. Hughes Electronics and Loral Space & Communications Ltd. are both under investigation by the Justice Department and two Congressional committees for their role in transferring sensitive U.S. space technology to the Chinese after Hughes and Loral satellites were destroyed in two Chinese rocket explosions.
A House-Senate conference has agreed to transfer export licensing authority, reversing a 1996 decision by President Clinton that came under fire this year amid allegations of unauthorized technology transfers to China and favoritism to a big campaign contributor.
Washingtonpost.com: Key Stories on Chinese Missile Allegations

2. China Resources Holding Company of Hong Kong is said to be the commercial arm of China's Ministry of Foreign Trade, and according to western intelligence sources, this international bank serves as a front for Chinese intelligence. China Resources owns half interest in Hong Kong Chinese Bank. The other half is owned by the Lippo Group, an Indonesian banking and real estate conglomerate which had close ties to President Clinton before all hell broke loose over illegal campaign contributions.

The so called campaign contribution scandal, as labeled by the national media, is actually a classical foreign intelligence operation which exploited corruptible politicians and lax security for strategic financial gain. China's intelligence interest and investments in Clinton is now bearing fruit in a windfall of one sided trade deals with the United States
Red Chinese Threat

3.Chung gave $10,000 to Kerry's campaign -- most of it illegally -- hosted a fund-raising party in Beverly Hills, and threw in an extra $10,000 to honor Kerry at a Democratic Senate Campaign Committee event. Kerry eventually returned all the Chung money.
More than anything else, the saga of John Kerry, Johnny Chung and Liu Chao Ying, as laid out in a series of interviews, court records, campaign finance disclosure forms and bank documents obtained by NBC News, is a story of what can happen when the pursuit of campaign cash gets out of hand. Kerry's Chinese campaign connections - Nightly News - msnbc.com

4. NEW DETAILS HAVE EMERGED ABOUT AN ALLEGED CONTRIBUTION OF
ABOUT 100-THOUSAND DOLLARS FROM A CHINESE MILITARY AEROSPACE
OFFICER TO THE 1986 CLINTON-GORE REELECTION TREASURY. NEW ALLEGATIONS ABOUT A CLINTON "CHINA CONNECTION"

 

[mal]

1. If liberalism today was the Classical Liberalism of our Founders, all of us would be liberals. In fact, from the New Deal through the 50's Americans pretty much were liberals.

2. Liberalism took a major step toward the current formulation, and the separation from Classical Liberalism, with the publication of L. T. Hobhouse's “Liberalism”, of 1911. It was a pretty good restatement of Classical Liberalism at the beginning of the 20th century. But the text is interesting as, unlike some of the more commonly cited formulation [J.S. Mill for instance], Hobhouse argues that, even though wealth is produced by individuals, these same individual’s prosperity relied on the health and security of the community. Modern History Sourcebook: Hobhouse, Liberalism 1911

a. Even a casual perusal of Hobhouse would reveal more in common with today’s conservatives than today’s liberals!

b. The new view was adopted in the early 1900’s by Theodore Roosevelt’s “Bull Moose” Republican Party and Woodrow Wilson’s Democrats under the banner of “progressivism, but it was not until Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal that the actual term ‘liberal’ came into widespread use in the United States.

3. Today, liberals are viewed by many as permissive on social morality, including government programs that offer not merely indulgence, but appear to many to encourage lazy, ill-mannered, and sexually promiscuous conduct, gaming the system and making excuses for riots, violent crime, and other forms of anti-social behavior. Eric Alterman, “Why We’re Liberals,” p. 38

4. ‘Liberal’ became a pejorative, as in the following: “The favoring of blacks over whites and permissiveness toward drug abuse, illegitimacy, welfare fraud, street crime, homosexuality, anti-Americanism, as well as moral anarchy among the young.” Thomas and Mary Edsall, “Chain Reaction: The Impact of Race, Rights, and Taxes on American Politics,” p. 9

5. Other elements that turned many Americans against liberalism:

a. The use of courts rather than the electoral process to achieve liberal aims. Such Supreme Court decisions as Engle v. Vitale (1962) convinced many that liberals were about to attack traditional morality whenever possible. [The prayer in question: “Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our country. Amen.]

b. Complicated interrelationships between the various left wing groups, i.e., civil libertarians, socialists, communists, anarchists, populists, etc, melded all together in the eyes of much of the apolitical public. The actions of any of these groups often colored the perception of all.

c. Conservative thinking has been propelled by well-funded, and, more importantly, easily accessible institutions such as the American Enterprise Institute, and Heritage Foundation, which offer more than equivalent research and information to the Brookings Institution and the Urban League. Access has been multiplied by the advent of the Internet.

peace...

 

[rdean]

What conservative rubs shoulders with communist? I'm not talking free trade or diplomacy. What conservative was at 10/2 with the communist? Or has had personnal dealings with them.

note; I will thank you for listing any individual, as I don't think there is a group.

The republlicans were in lock step with the NPR during Bush Sr.s Administration, sharing technology, RNC receiving campaign funds, and did you know that George Bush is the only president who the Chinese celebrate during New Years? He brought them oil companies so the Communist would have heat. Then along comes Bush jr. & we get the repeat. He lets China become a permanent member of the WTO, even had that in his 1st plank if you ever read it. And borrowed trillions to sustain taxcuts and wars, that you will be paying for to the NPR. There is probably a book on it somewhere. Richard Nixon took us into Russia, Bush Sr. took us into China. Bush Jr. let the Chinese slide when we found weapons caches in the Afghan mountains being used against our troops. Bush apologized to China for their pilot ramming a US spy plane in open waters. Then he attends several get togethers with China, and attends the Olympics.

1. Hughes Electronics and Loral Space & Communications Ltd. are both under investigation by the Justice Department and two Congressional committees for their role in transferring sensitive U.S. space technology to the Chinese after Hughes and Loral satellites were destroyed in two Chinese rocket explosions.
A House-Senate conference has agreed to transfer export licensing authority, reversing a 1996 decision by President Clinton that came under fire this year amid allegations of unauthorized technology transfers to China and favoritism to a big campaign contributor.
Washingtonpost.com: Key Stories on Chinese Missile Allegations

2. China Resources Holding Company of Hong Kong is said to be the commercial arm of China's Ministry of Foreign Trade, and according to western intelligence sources, this international bank serves as a front for Chinese intelligence. China Resources owns half interest in Hong Kong Chinese Bank. The other half is owned by the Lippo Group, an Indonesian banking and real estate conglomerate which had close ties to President Clinton before all hell broke loose over illegal campaign contributions.

The so called campaign contribution scandal, as labeled by the national media, is actually a classical foreign intelligence operation which exploited corruptible politicians and lax security for strategic financial gain. China's intelligence interest and investments in Clinton is now bearing fruit in a windfall of one sided trade deals with the United States
Red Chinese Threat

3.Chung gave $10,000 to Kerry's campaign -- most of it illegally -- hosted a fund-raising party in Beverly Hills, and threw in an extra $10,000 to honor Kerry at a Democratic Senate Campaign Committee event. Kerry eventually returned all the Chung money.
More than anything else, the saga of John Kerry, Johnny Chung and Liu Chao Ying, as laid out in a series of interviews, court records, campaign finance disclosure forms and bank documents obtained by NBC News, is a story of what can happen when the pursuit of campaign cash gets out of hand. Kerry's Chinese campaign connections - Nightly News - msnbc.com

4. NEW DETAILS HAVE EMERGED ABOUT AN ALLEGED CONTRIBUTION OF
ABOUT 100-THOUSAND DOLLARS FROM A CHINESE MILITARY AEROSPACE
OFFICER TO THE 1986 CLINTON-GORE REELECTION TREASURY. NEW ALLEGATIONS ABOUT A CLINTON "CHINA CONNECTION"

From your article:

Kerry eventually returned all the Chung money.

Does that mean China is going to return the millions of jobs sent to them by the Republicans?

Just curious, what does "ALLEGED" mean?

 

[shintao]

Uh, you do realize that conservatives were quite fed-up with Bush, right?

And any other con who is finally looked on in a negative manner. Of course that has lil to do with the question asked of me.

 

[PoliticalChic]

The republlicans were in lock step with the NPR during Bush Sr.s Administration, sharing technology, RNC receiving campaign funds, and did you know that George Bush is the only president who the Chinese celebrate during New Years? He brought them oil companies so the Communist would have heat. Then along comes Bush jr. & we get the repeat. He lets China become a permanent member of the WTO, even had that in his 1st plank if you ever read it. And borrowed trillions to sustain taxcuts and wars, that you will be paying for to the NPR. There is probably a book on it somewhere. Richard Nixon took us into Russia, Bush Sr. took us into China. Bush Jr. let the Chinese slide when we found weapons caches in the Afghan mountains being used against our troops. Bush apologized to China for their pilot ramming a US spy plane in open waters. Then he attends several get togethers with China, and attends the Olympics.

1. Hughes Electronics and Loral Space & Communications Ltd. are both under investigation by the Justice Department and two Congressional committees for their role in transferring sensitive U.S. space technology to the Chinese after Hughes and Loral satellites were destroyed in two Chinese rocket explosions.
A House-Senate conference has agreed to transfer export licensing authority, reversing a 1996 decision by President Clinton that came under fire this year amid allegations of unauthorized technology transfers to China and favoritism to a big campaign contributor.
Washingtonpost.com: Key Stories on Chinese Missile Allegations

2. China Resources Holding Company of Hong Kong is said to be the commercial arm of China's Ministry of Foreign Trade, and according to western intelligence sources, this international bank serves as a front for Chinese intelligence. China Resources owns half interest in Hong Kong Chinese Bank. The other half is owned by the Lippo Group, an Indonesian banking and real estate conglomerate which had close ties to President Clinton before all hell broke loose over illegal campaign contributions.

The so called campaign contribution scandal, as labeled by the national media, is actually a classical foreign intelligence operation which exploited corruptible politicians and lax security for strategic financial gain. China's intelligence interest and investments in Clinton is now bearing fruit in a windfall of one sided trade deals with the United States
Red Chinese Threat

3.Chung gave $10,000 to Kerry's campaign -- most of it illegally -- hosted a fund-raising party in Beverly Hills, and threw in an extra $10,000 to honor Kerry at a Democratic Senate Campaign Committee event. Kerry eventually returned all the Chung money.
More than anything else, the saga of John Kerry, Johnny Chung and Liu Chao Ying, as laid out in a series of interviews, court records, campaign finance disclosure forms and bank documents obtained by NBC News, is a story of what can happen when the pursuit of campaign cash gets out of hand. Kerry's Chinese campaign connections - Nightly News - msnbc.com

4. NEW DETAILS HAVE EMERGED ABOUT AN ALLEGED CONTRIBUTION OF
ABOUT 100-THOUSAND DOLLARS FROM A CHINESE MILITARY AEROSPACE
OFFICER TO THE 1986 CLINTON-GORE REELECTION TREASURY. NEW ALLEGATIONS ABOUT A CLINTON "CHINA CONNECTION"

From your article:

Kerry eventually returned all the Chung money.

Does that mean China is going to return the millions of jobs sent to them by the Republicans?

Just curious, what does "ALLEGED" mean?

It seems to have slipped past you, DP-deanie, how I eviserated your argument that it is the Repubs who are chained to, operate in favor of, and kow-tow to the Chinese.

 

[shintao]

What conservative rubs shoulders with communist? I'm not talking free trade or diplomacy. What conservative was at 10/2 with the communist? Or has had personnal dealings with them.

note; I will thank you for listing any individual, as I don't think there is a group.

The republlicans were in lock step with the NPR during Bush Sr.s Administration, sharing technology, RNC receiving campaign funds, and did you know that George Bush is the only president who the Chinese celebrate during New Years? He brought them oil companies so the Communist would have heat. Then along comes Bush jr. & we get the repeat. He lets China become a permanent member of the WTO, even had that in his 1st plank if you ever read it. And borrowed trillions to sustain taxcuts and wars, that you will be paying for to the NPR. There is probably a book on it somewhere. Richard Nixon took us into Russia, Bush Sr. took us into China. Bush Jr. let the Chinese slide when we found weapons caches in the Afghan mountains being used against our troops. Bush apologized to China for their pilot ramming a US spy plane in open waters. Then he attends several get togethers with China, and attends the Olympics.

1. Hughes Electronics and Loral Space & Communications Ltd. are both under investigation by the Justice Department and two Congressional committees for their role in transferring sensitive U.S. space technology to the Chinese after Hughes and Loral satellites were destroyed in two Chinese rocket explosions.
A House-Senate conference has agreed to transfer export licensing authority, reversing a 1996 decision by President Clinton that came under fire this year amid allegations of unauthorized technology transfers to China and favoritism to a big campaign contributor.
Washingtonpost.com: Key Stories on Chinese Missile Allegations

2. China Resources Holding Company of Hong Kong is said to be the commercial arm of China's Ministry of Foreign Trade, and according to western intelligence sources, this international bank serves as a front for Chinese intelligence. China Resources owns half interest in Hong Kong Chinese Bank. The other half is owned by the Lippo Group, an Indonesian banking and real estate conglomerate which had close ties to President Clinton before all hell broke loose over illegal campaign contributions.

The so called campaign contribution scandal, as labeled by the national media, is actually a classical foreign intelligence operation which exploited corruptible politicians and lax security for strategic financial gain. China's intelligence interest and investments in Clinton is now bearing fruit in a windfall of one sided trade deals with the United States
Red Chinese Threat

3.Chung gave $10,000 to Kerry's campaign -- most of it illegally -- hosted a fund-raising party in Beverly Hills, and threw in an extra $10,000 to honor Kerry at a Democratic Senate Campaign Committee event. Kerry eventually returned all the Chung money.
More than anything else, the saga of John Kerry, Johnny Chung and Liu Chao Ying, as laid out in a series of interviews, court records, campaign finance disclosure forms and bank documents obtained by NBC News, is a story of what can happen when the pursuit of campaign cash gets out of hand. Kerry's Chinese campaign connections - Nightly News - msnbc.com

4. NEW DETAILS HAVE EMERGED ABOUT AN ALLEGED CONTRIBUTION OF
ABOUT 100-THOUSAND DOLLARS FROM A CHINESE MILITARY AEROSPACE
OFFICER TO THE 1986 CLINTON-GORE REELECTION TREASURY. NEW ALLEGATIONS ABOUT A CLINTON "CHINA CONNECTION"

But,...sputter,.........but your side did it first................................

 

[NYcarbineer]

"Today's conservatism is last year's liberalism because conservatism is always wrong. Liberals win the battles, conservatives accept the liberal victory and have no choice but to incorporate the consequences of that victory as part of their own philosophy.

How many conservatives today do you see opposing women's suffrage? for example. "


What? Womans suffrage? Do you mean that all out decline in family values? How many pro-abortion conservatives do you know? Pro-welfare?

Please be specific, and inside the last 100 years.

The single biggest cause of the decline of families in this country has been the economic effect of lost earning power that has brought about the necessity of the two-earner household.

That might qualify as one conservative/corporatist 'victory'.

 

[rdean]

1. Hughes Electronics and Loral Space & Communications Ltd. are both under investigation by the Justice Department and two Congressional committees for their role in transferring sensitive U.S. space technology to the Chinese after Hughes and Loral satellites were destroyed in two Chinese rocket explosions.
A House-Senate conference has agreed to transfer export licensing authority, reversing a 1996 decision by President Clinton that came under fire this year amid allegations of unauthorized technology transfers to China and favoritism to a big campaign contributor.
Washingtonpost.com: Key Stories on Chinese Missile Allegations

2. China Resources Holding Company of Hong Kong is said to be the commercial arm of China's Ministry of Foreign Trade, and according to western intelligence sources, this international bank serves as a front for Chinese intelligence. China Resources owns half interest in Hong Kong Chinese Bank. The other half is owned by the Lippo Group, an Indonesian banking and real estate conglomerate which had close ties to President Clinton before all hell broke loose over illegal campaign contributions.

The so called campaign contribution scandal, as labeled by the national media, is actually a classical foreign intelligence operation which exploited corruptible politicians and lax security for strategic financial gain. China's intelligence interest and investments in Clinton is now bearing fruit in a windfall of one sided trade deals with the United States
Red Chinese Threat

3.Chung gave $10,000 to Kerry's campaign -- most of it illegally -- hosted a fund-raising party in Beverly Hills, and threw in an extra $10,000 to honor Kerry at a Democratic Senate Campaign Committee event. Kerry eventually returned all the Chung money.
More than anything else, the saga of John Kerry, Johnny Chung and Liu Chao Ying, as laid out in a series of interviews, court records, campaign finance disclosure forms and bank documents obtained by NBC News, is a story of what can happen when the pursuit of campaign cash gets out of hand. Kerry's Chinese campaign connections - Nightly News - msnbc.com

4. NEW DETAILS HAVE EMERGED ABOUT AN ALLEGED CONTRIBUTION OF
ABOUT 100-THOUSAND DOLLARS FROM A CHINESE MILITARY AEROSPACE
OFFICER TO THE 1986 CLINTON-GORE REELECTION TREASURY. NEW ALLEGATIONS ABOUT A CLINTON "CHINA CONNECTION"

From your article:

Kerry eventually returned all the Chung money.

Does that mean China is going to return the millions of jobs sent to them by the Republicans?

Just curious, what does "ALLEGED" mean?

It seems to have slipped past you, DP-deanie, how I eviserated your argument that it is the Repubs who are chained to, operate in favor of, and kow-tow to the Chinese.

Yea, I guess you showed me. Putting up articles from 1998.

Republicans gave tax breaks and subsidies to companies who move jobs to communist China. 2.4 million from 2001 to 2008. To Republicans, that was a "GOOD" thing.

It could have been more, but those companies had to bring Chinese here to learn those jobs from the very Americans whose jobs they were taking. It took a few years to build those factories in China.

Now get this. This is the "good" part. Republicans took taxpayer money and gave it to companies to fuck the taxpayers who gave the money in the first place. Republicans are so proud at how well they pulled that off.

But, "He gave the money back" and "alleged" isn't "proof". I don't know what to say. Your reality is so far removed from "reality". Seriously. The bleach went too deep.

 

[Samson]

From your article:

Kerry eventually returned all the Chung money.

Does that mean China is going to return the millions of jobs sent to them by the Republicans?

Just curious, what does "ALLEGED" mean?

It seems to have slipped past you, DP-deanie, how I eviserated your argument that it is the Repubs who are chained to, operate in favor of, and kow-tow to the Chinese.

Yea, I guess you showed me. Putting up articles from 1998.

Republicans gave tax breaks and subsidies to companies who move jobs to communist China. 2.4 million from 2001 to 2008. To Republicans, that was a "GOOD" thing.

It could have been more, but those companies had to bring Chinese here to learn those jobs from the very Americans whose jobs they were taking. It took a few years to build those factories in China.

Now get this. This is the "good" part. Republicans took taxpayer money and gave it to companies to fuck the taxpayers who gave the money in the first place. Republicans are so proud at how well they pulled that off.

But, "He gave the money back" and "alleged" isn't "proof". I don't know what to say. Your reality is so far removed from "reality". Seriously. The bleach went too deep.

Gee.

Republicans are a damn INCREDIBLY POWERFUL POLITICAL PARTY!!

Christ, rdean, I thought they were a bunch of ineffectual wimps before I read your post!!

 

[jeffrockit]

ahh last election Liberals got millions more votes.
sore losers anyone?

Based on where the country is now, we all lost.

 

[Charles_Main]

ahh last election Liberals got millions more votes.
sore losers anyone?

Care to redo that Election today.

I bet he does not get Nearly as many votes this time around.

Obama the Candidate was a much more Moderate fellow, than Obama the President.

Hell he talked like a fucking conservative on some issues, and Millions of Americans fell for it.

 

[Father Time]

a. The use of courts rather than the electoral process to achieve liberal aims. Such Supreme Court decisions as Engle v. Vitale (1962) convinced many that liberals were about to attack traditional morality whenever possible. [The prayer in question: “Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our country. Amen.]

Right because attacking government endorsement of a religion = attacking morality. It's not even an attack on the damn religion. Come on PC you're better than that BS.

Do you really believe that forcing kids to cite a prayer to the Christian God doesn't violate their freedom of religion, and would you really be in favor of such a thing?

 

[midcan5]

1. If liberalism today was the Classical Liberalism of our Founders, all of us would be liberals. In fact, from the New Deal through the 50's Americans pretty much were liberals....

Another day, another inaccurate thread pointing fingers at the other to avoid a honest assessment of American history.


Point by point rebuttal of PC usual corporate apology for the world we find today, blaming others, rather than thinking on their own.


(1) Liberalism today is hopefully (tries) a pragmatic recognition of the real world. "How we go on in the here and now," as Bernard Williams calls it. All these labels shift, classical liberalism never existed in any pure form, it could actually be said and argued that most of the founders were elitist statesmen, on the order of Plato's philosopher kings. Slavery fits nowhere in liberal thought. Even among the founders there were broad ideological differences.

(2) By the time Hobhouse came along populism and progressivism had already had a long history. They began in the 1890's as a reaction to the changing society much like today, with massive immigration, corporate power, and the growing separation of haves and have nots. "We meet in the midst of a nation brought to the verge of moral, political, and material ruin. Corruption dominates the ballot box, the Legislatures, the Congress, and touches even the ermine of the bench. The people are demoralized... The newspapers are largely subsidized or muzzled, public opinion silenced, [small] business prostrated, homes covered with mortgages, labor impoverished, and the land concentrating in the hands of the capitalists. The urban workmen are denied the right to organize for self protection, imported pauperized labor beats down their wages, a hireling standing army, unrecognized by our laws, is established to shoot them down, and they are rapidly degenerating into European conditions. The fruits of the toil of millions are boldly stolen to build up colossal fortunes for a few, unprecedented in the history of mankind; and the possessors of these, in turn, despise the Republic and endanger liberty." Written in 1892, it was part of the Populist platform.

(a) This link contradicts that premise. Leonard Hobhouse - Liberal Thinkers - Liberalism

(b) "Conservative, a statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others." [Ambrose Bierce, "Devil's Dictionary," 1911]" And Liberal "in U.S. politics tending to mean "favorable to government action to effect social change," which seems at times to draw more from the religious sense of "free from prejudice in favor of traditional opinions and established institutions" (and thus open to new ideas and plans of reform), which dates from 1823." From liberal in dictionary.com. The more powerful debasement of liberalism came from corporate propaganda, see below (4).

(3) If viewing defines an ideology, one would need to examine the viewer's motives and whether they made sense. Just saying something means little without proof. Today's liberalism grew out of FDR's enormous accomplishments during the Great Depression. Consider that we had economic sanity till Reagan began the destruction of regulatory enforcement. For those interested in liberal political philosophy check out John Rawls, Isaiah Berlin, Bernard Williams, Ronald Dworkin, Paul Starr, and Jeremy Waldron. This piece details liberalism's story marvelously. This is Your Story - The Progressive Story of America. Pass It On.

(4) 'Liberal' became pejorative through almost fifty years of corporate support of think tanks that provided the environment in which they could manipulate law, regulation and information in their favor. It started back in the 1890 and earlier, grew strong under FDR and LBJ and became truth through the constant bombardment of exaggeration and lies, such as Reagan's Cadillac mom. "Historian Phillips-Fein traces the hidden history of the Reagan revolution to a coterie of business executives, including General Electric official and Reagan mentor Lemuel Boulware, who saw labor unions, government regulation, high taxes and welfare spending as dire threats to their profits and power. From the 1930s onward, the author argues, they provided the money, organization and fervor for a decades-long war against New Deal liberalism—funding campaigns, think tanks, magazines and lobbying groups, and indoctrinating employees in the virtues of unfettered capitalism." [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Hands-Making-Conservative-movement/dp/0393059308/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247845984&sr=1-1]Amazon.com: Invisible Hands: The Making of the Conservative Movement from the New Deal to Reagan (9780393059304): Kim Phillips-Fein: Books[/ame] See also: [ame=http://www.conservativenannystate.org/cns.html]The Conservative Nanny State[/ame] and [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Democracy-Political-History-American/dp/0767905342/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8]Amazon.com: Wealth and Democracy: A Political History of the American Rich (9780767905343): Kevin Phillips: Books[/ame]


(5) America is now and has always been liberal, admittedly most will not use the label liberal because of the information noted above. Iran is a conservative nation, America is not. No nation has ever been founded on conservatism, as the first conservative would still be in the cave had a liberal not coaxed them out. See: The Rhetoric of Reaction - Albert O. Hirschman - Harvard University Press

(a) Courts (litigation) are part of American culture and since K street and many politicians are lawyers on both sides, this point has no validity today. In truth, individuals create much of America's useless and frivolous law through our courts as each person thinks themselves in possession of the final truth. And since mucho greenbacks are a big goal for all. Think about that for a bit. See this piece. Philip K. Howard: Four ways to fix a broken legal system | Video on TED.com

(b) Libertarians are conservatives who think pot and greed are national values. Socialism already exists in America through market sharing, corporate sharing and ownership, Social Security and a host of other social goods. "The difference between Democrats and Republicans is: Democrats have accepted some ideas of Socialism cheerfully, while Republicans have accepted them reluctantly."(*) No one is really an anarchist who is mentally older than five. The tea party is a contemporary populist movement, but as I have written often it lacks real American values. Communists are non-existent today, actually they may have always been nonexistent as Communism like Christianity is just too darn hard. Christians are mostly non-existent too.

(c) I sorta agree, but it is not a good thing for democracy as it concentrates power (ideas) in the hands of the already powerful. It is ideas, right or wrong, that dominate thought. "The 20th century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: The growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy." Alex Carey

(*) Norman Thomas


PC, you need a bit of education on the reality out there, stay away from corporate mediated and revised thought for a few months is my suggestion as a great seer of human nature.


Anyone interested in real history check out Richard Hofstadter's, 'The Age Of Reform,' and William Manchester's 'Glory and the Dream,' for fair assessments of the times covered in this debate. Both excellent balanced history.


"I would say quite seriously, that I am a socialist in economics, a liberal in politics, and a conservative in culture." Daniel Bell

 

[editec]

You mean those "classic liberals" who agreed to count slaves as 3/5 of a person for purposes of house representation, but who thought slavery was a-okay?

Nah! I would not want to be that kind of liberal.

That kind of liberal can also be described as a classist asshole.