HOW 'Free' are we in this country? Man faces jail for flying flag....

[SwimExpert]

I bought my house from a military buddy who got tapped with a short-notice deployment. Having to complete all the paperwork quickly, in the rush I was never asked prior to the sale being finalized to sign the document forcing me to become a member of the Housing Association.

After I bought the house I went on vacation later. I had someone put my trash cans out while I was gone, but because of an unexpected event I did not get home until 2 days after I had planned, leaving the trash cans out 1 (ONE) day longer than they should have been left out. Within 15 minutes of getting home, the President and the Vice of the HOA were at my door to point out how I had violated their rules and to threaten me with calling the police next time (no kidding). It was my great pleasure to tell them I was not a member and to check it out if they wanted...which they did, finding out to THEIR great DIS-pleasure I did NOT have to follow their rules. Afterwards they tried to pressure me and intimidate me to join, but I refused. (I eventually made it clear I would not do anything to detract from the value of the homes in the HOA / neighborhood because it did not benefit me in any way to do so but as far as their rules, they could stick them.)

That's actually a fortuitous situation. Many times HOAs will have it in their bylaws that anyone who purchases a house in the neighborhood is automatically part of the HOA, regardless of notification or consent. And apparently the courts have affirmed that an HOA has the power to treat the mere act of purchase of the house as implied consent to join, as well as make membership in the HOA a mandatory condition of sale.

 

[SwimExpert]

yes----local town ordinances can tell you when to MOW your lawn------overgrown grass on your own property can violate an ordinance

Cool story. This isn't about grass. It's about political speech.

 

[SwimExpert]

So? The rules? Yes, why doesnt everyone break the rules? Good question.

That's exactly what the loyalists said right after the Boston Tea Party.

 

[irosie91]

yes----local town ordinances can tell you when to MOW your lawn------overgrown grass on your own property can violate an ordinance

Cool story. This isn't about grass. It's about political speech.

nope----its an ordinance against CAMPAIGNING in time proximity to a VOTE----
in my state------bars were CLOSED----locked tight ----on election days and no one could SELL so much as a six pack

 

[easyt65]

That's actually a fortuitous situation. Many times HOAs will have it in their bylaws that anyone who purchases a house in the neighborhood is automatically part of the HOA, regardless of notification or consent. And apparently the courts have affirmed that an HOA has the power to treat the mere act of purchase of the house as implied consent to join, as well as make membership in the HOA a mandatory condition of sale.

Great point leading to a great question.....that's a lot of power for potential 'neighbors', isn't it? Is it Constitutional for a group of neighbors to bond together and declare they have the authority to FORCE people to automatically become one of them and have to abide by their laws if you buy a house? (Reminds me of a UNION - you can have a job but that makes you one of us subject to OUR laws / rules.....)

 

[g5000]

P.S. According to the video this isn't about flags, it's about political signage.

Political signage is still speech.

 

[LeftofLeft]

Local laws. Dude should abide or move.

When local laws say no abortion, no homosexual weddings, how come you people don't say: "should abide or move"? Cherry picking and inconsistencies is a trademark of the Left.

the town in which I grew up was FULL of idiot local ordinances and -------SOLID
REPUBLICAN

Ok. Should National or Local law supercede?

 

[g5000]

If the facts of the OP story are correct and complete, then this is a fucking travesty. It is outrageous the city is outlawing a political sign. That's the whole POINT of free speech in America. It's to protect political dissent.

I can't believe anyone would excuse or favor making this guy take down his Trump flag.

If he loses the case, I hope he takes it all the way to the Supreme Court so they can kick that city in the nuts. Hard.

 

[g5000]

If anyone could point out an intermediate and yet a tenable position between the complete independence and the entire servitude of opinion, I should perhaps be inclined to adopt it, but the difficulty is to discover this intermediate position. Intending to correct the licentiousness of the press and to restore the use of orderly language, you first try the offender by a jury; but if the jury acquits him, the opinion which was that of a single individual becomes the opinion of the whole country. Too much and too little has therefore been done; go farther, then. You bring the delinquent before permanent magistrates; but even here the cause must be heard before it can be decided; and the very principles which no book would have ventured to avow are blazoned forth in the pleadings, and what was obscurely hinted at in a single composition is thus repeated in a multitude of other publications. The language is only the expression and, if I may so speak, the body of the thought, but it is not the thought itself. Tribunals may condemn the body, but the sense, the spirit of the work is too subtle for their authority. Too much has still been done to recede, too little to attain your end; you must go still farther. Establish a censorship of the press. But the tongue of the public speaker will still make itself heard, and your purpose is not yet accomplished; you have only increased the mischief. Thought is not, like physical strength, dependent upon the number of its agents; nor can authors be counted like the troops that compose an army. On the contrary, the authority of a principle is often increased by the small number of men by whom it is expressed. The words of one strong-minded man addressed to the passions of a listening assembly have more power than the vociferations of a thousand orators; and if it be allowed to speak freely in any one public place, the consequence is the same as if free speaking was allowed in every village. The liberty of speech must therefore be destroyed as well as the liberty of the press. And now you have succeeded, everybody is reduced to silence. But your object was to repress the abuses of liberty, and you are brought to the feet of a despot. You have been led from the extreme of independence to the extreme of servitude without finding a single tenable position on the way at which you could stop.

Tocqueville: Book 1 Chapter 11

 

[rightwinger]

Such a drama queen

He is not facng jail. He is being cited for posting political signs prior to the allowable window

 

[easyt65]

Ok. Should National or Local law supercede?

Local law can be as strict federal law but not be more than....
Some State laws have jurisdiction where federal law does not...
Local law still can not violate the Constitution...
...there are quite a few issues that decide / effect your question....

 

[g5000]

Such a drama queen

He is not facng jail. He is being cited for posting political signs prior to the allowable window

It's speech, and speech is free in America. Especially on your own property. You going to fine him for wearing a Make America Great Again hat while he mows his lawn?

If the guy wants to parade a Nazi flag through the streets of Skokie, Illinois, he can. So he damn sure can fly a Trump flag in his yard.

 

[irosie91]

That's actually a fortuitous situation. Many times HOAs will have it in their bylaws that anyone who purchases a house in the neighborhood is automatically part of the HOA, regardless of notification or consent. And apparently the courts have affirmed that an HOA has the power to treat the mere act of purchase of the house as implied consent to join, as well as make membership in the HOA a mandatory condition of sale.

Great point leading to a great question.....that's a lot of power for potential 'neighbors', isn't it? Is it Constitutional for a group of neighbors to bond together and declare they have the authority to FORCE people to automatically become one of them and have to abide by their laws if you buy a house? (Reminds me of a UNION - you can have a job but that makes you one of us subject to OUR laws / rules.....)

right-----I grew up in such a town------very Nazi-----it had been completely RESTRICTED for years------but that status fell apart when there came to be
MONEY in selling little houses to veterans-----(even jewish veterans like my dad)
It was decades before they let a "colored" family in. NEIGHBORS were from hell-------they actually persecuted each other with ordinances

 

[easyt65]

Such a drama queen

He is not facng jail. He is being cited for posting political signs prior to the allowable window

According to the story, supposedly citing law, he IS, though I seriously doubt any judge would impose such. In previous cases involving similar situations citizens have been fined 'so much money' per day until the 'offending' flag came down.

 

[irosie91]

Ok. Should National or Local law supercede?

Local law can be as strict federal law but not be more than....
Some State laws have jurisdiction where federal law does not...
Local law still can not violate the Constitution...
...there are quite a few issues that decide / effect your question....

AH----you do not know-------local ordinances can be PSYCHOTIC-----it was only
recently that it happened that it became popular to TAKE THEM TO THE SUPREME COURT as "unconstitutional"------and all kinds of silly laws are still on the books

 

[Sizis]

Do you know the government can dictate how long you can fly a flag on your own property? Does that sound like you are truly 'free' in this country? Doesn't that sound like a little bit too much government control?

Remember your answer
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Does it make a difference now that the flag the man facing a $2,000 fine or jail has been flying is a Donald Trump "Make America Great Again" flag?

SHOULD it matter, on your own property? If your 1st reaction above was one of frustration and thinking this was / is a little too much government control. Now.... 'Funny' how much difference partisanship makes....


NJ Homeowner Faces Jail for Flying Trump Flag

Incredible
You can find similar laws here in Europe....
I think you can feel more free in China or DPRK than USA or Europe nowadays

 

[g5000]

Trump should make a campaign stop in this guy's yard. Bring THOUSANDS of people wearing Trump shirts and hats.

 

[irosie91]

Do you know the government can dictate how long you can fly a flag on your own property? Does that sound like you are truly 'free' in this country? Doesn't that sound like a little bit too much government control?

Remember your answer
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Does it make a difference now that the flag the man facing a $2,000 fine or jail has been flying is a Donald Trump "Make America Great Again" flag?

SHOULD it matter, on your own property? If your 1st reaction above was one of frustration and thinking this was / is a little too much government control. Now.... 'Funny' how much difference partisanship makes....


NJ Homeowner Faces Jail for Flying Trump Flag

Incredible
You can find similar laws here in Europe....
I think you can feel more free in China or DPRK than USA or Europe nowadays

control yourself-------NOPE---not really-----but funny laws do exist ALL OVER THE GLOBE-----and there are vindictive people all over the globe EAGER to
INDULGE themselves

 

[Syriusly]

Do you know the government can dictate how long you can fly a flag on your own property? Does that sound like you are truly 'free' in this country? Doesn't that sound like a little bit too much government control?

Remember your answer
.

Another good reason not to live in New Jersey.

 

[SwimExpert]

P.S. According to the video this isn't about flags, it's about political signage.

Political signage is still speech.

Correct. And that is what makes this situation so problematic. If the town had an ordinance that applied to flags, generally, then there would be no problem here, beyond the man's displeasure. However, according to the video, the ordinance specifically targets political signage. That makes this a free speech violation. The courts have said on more than one ocassion that political speech is the most protected speech of all.