How 5 Capitalist Democracies Do Health Care

[jeffrockit]

For example, I'm able to remove a maximum $2,500 from my paycheck, pretax, to pay for health costs. Why am I limited to only $2,500? Why not allow me $10,000? Why not simply let me keep my money and find my own goddamn insurance?

because you don't live in a vacuum. You already pay taxes. Maybe a few dollars at most pay for the health care of others uninsured.

How much was your fwd tax bill? Divide that up with the cost of war, etc and fed grants to small biz etc, and divide some more.... get the drift?

Stop whining about responsibilies and obligatulions. Freedom isn't free, so STfU and pay your bill.
:jO

Most don't have a problem paying their bill. The problem is paying their bill and the others' bill. Many people bilk the system because they know it works for them. The current system rewards slackers and penalizes those that put in an honest days work all in the name of "fairness". Who is it really fair to?

 

[DavidLaGuardia]

Anyone who has half a brain in Britain goes private... they don't use the NHS unless they can't afford insurance... because it's crap.

Another misleading quote. THe NHS provides a good level of primary care and beyond, and any failings are often exaggerated by the media. It is true though that it is not up to the spec of full private care, but those wanting such an upgrade end up paying far less because of the layers the NHS covers, though many people of adequate means don't always bother with private unless they have a niche need (and many top private surgeons and specialists also spend some of their working time in the NHS often for their own vocational motives) . Contrary to what some have said, there are no long queues with people dying for want of care. Waiting lists have occured for non life threatening illnesses ( a typical example being hip replaments) naturally many people needing this chooses to pay for this through private insurance or their own means. Canada does however hacve a problem as it does not allow parralel private medicine.

Nearly all Doctors in General practive run their own businesses and are not employees of the state. They can take on whatever mix of NHS or private work they want to. The UK's system is far from perfect but the facts shoulf be made clear.

The point of comparrison of an insurance is not it's cost when it is not needed, but what it delviers when you need to claim. Prescrpition costs and cover fro chronic conidtions is woeful with many Amercian insurances meaning people have a great deal of expense if they become ill compared to other first world western nations.

Yes it is also true that there is no such thing as free and that tax must be ultimately riased to run governemnt schemes. This doesn't mean it has to be crap though, nor does treating helath like the education of kids in school as a right mean that a society has surrendered to socialism.

I'm not advocating Obamas proposals nor that of any other country, I just think that getting the facts right and thinking outside the box is what is needed. There resally is too much "crap" being spurted out in this debate on both sides.

America has the wealth and igenuity to provide its own adequate system for all without compromising what it has. The vested interest of those making excesses of monay out of the current system also needs to be exposed.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Why do the right wing-nuts always mention Canada and also misrepresent Great Britain?

Why do the conservatives always ignore that what Americans want and will do is make their own way and not copy a system from others?

Why does the GOP have so little respect for American ingenuity when it comes to figuring out a way around the health care crisis even they admit is real?

Here is how 5 Capitalist Democracies have dealt with health care. Maybe we can pick and choose things from them and stay away from mistakes made and stop trying to say as the GOP does, that we should re-invent the wheel?

Switzerland

An interview with an expert on Switzerland's system +Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 11.6

Average monthly family premium: $750, paid entirely by consumers; there are government subsidies for low-income citizens.

Co-payments: 10 percent of the cost of services, up to $420 per year.

What is it? The Swiss system is social insurance like in Japan and Germany, voted in by a national referendum in 1994. Switzerland didn't have far to go to achieve universal coverage; 95 percent of the population already had voluntary insurance when the law was passed. All citizens are required to have coverage; those not covered were automatically assigned to a company. The government provides assistance to those who can't afford the premiums.

How does it work? The Swiss example shows that universal coverage is possible, even in a highly capitalist nation with powerful insurance and pharmaceutical industries. Insurance companies are not allowed to make a profit on basic care and are prohibited from cherry-picking only young and healthy applicants. They can make money on supplemental insurance, however. As in Germany, the insurers negotiate with providers to set standard prices for services, but drug prices are set by the government.

What are the concerns? The Swiss system is the second most expensive in the world -- but it's still far cheaper than U.S. health care. Drug prices are..

bump

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Sure, but collapse of the nation is infinitely less likely than a low or no return on investments.

Sure, but if you were to look at the return on Social Security Benefits/Social Security Taxes paid you would find it negative in all but a very few who reach very old ages. Low returns trump negative returns and with the market performing as it has throughout history, you are much more likely to do well with a private fund compared to the current SS system.

And if you don't happen to reach retirement age, at least your heirs have something.

Immie

I would disagree with the assessment that it's negative returns. Of course, I'd also point out that Social Security isn't a retirement plan. It's a form of social insurance.

most arguments about SS ignore this basic fact: ''Social Security isn't a retirement plan. It's a form of social insurance'' ... this exposes the idiocy of most arguing

go figure

 

[Immanuel]

Sure, but if you were to look at the return on Social Security Benefits/Social Security Taxes paid you would find it negative in all but a very few who reach very old ages. Low returns trump negative returns and with the market performing as it has throughout history, you are much more likely to do well with a private fund compared to the current SS system.

And if you don't happen to reach retirement age, at least your heirs have something.

Immie

I would disagree with the assessment that it's negative returns. Of course, I'd also point out that Social Security isn't a retirement plan. It's a form of social insurance.

most arguments about SS ignore this basic fact: ''Social Security isn't a retirement plan. It's a form of social insurance'' ... this exposes the idiocy of most arguing

go figure

Like I said, piss poor insurance that no one in their right mind would purchase if not forced to by the government.

Does that remind you of something else that they are trying to force upon us?

Immie

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I would disagree with the assessment that it's negative returns. Of course, I'd also point out that Social Security isn't a retirement plan. It's a form of social insurance.

most arguments about SS ignore this basic fact: ''Social Security isn't a retirement plan. It's a form of social insurance'' ... this exposes the idiocy of most arguing

go figure

Like I said, piss poor insurance that no one in their right mind would purchase if not forced to by the government.

Does that remind you of something else that they are trying to force upon us?

Immie

Social Security is a safety net program. Safety of the program is more important than rate of return on any monies. Keep greed out.

 

[Immanuel]

most arguments about SS ignore this basic fact: ''Social Security isn't a retirement plan. It's a form of social insurance'' ... this exposes the idiocy of most arguing

go figure

Like I said, piss poor insurance that no one in their right mind would purchase if not forced to by the government.

Does that remind you of something else that they are trying to force upon us?

Immie

Social Security is a safety net program. Safety of the program is more important than rate of return on any monies. Keep greed out.

A safety net with a hole in it the size of Rhode Island is no safety net.

It seems to me that the program is more important to some than providing for the needs of the people that it is supposed to help.

Immie

 

[Mr. Peepers]

Quote: Originally Posted by california girl
anyone who has half a brain in britain goes private... They don't use the nhs unless they can't afford insurance... Because it's crap.
FACT!!!!!!!!!!!

Um, no it isn't. You should talk to people who live in England or Ireland or France. I have at length. My boyfriend is British. They will tell you that our system is backasswards and assinine. The only people who benefit are executives at insurance companies. Please try to deny it. I beg of you.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Like I said, piss poor insurance that no one in their right mind would purchase if not forced to by the government.

Does that remind you of something else that they are trying to force upon us?

Immie

Social Security is a safety net program. Safety of the program is more important than rate of return on any monies. Keep greed out.

A safety net with a hole in it the size of Rhode Island is no safety net.

It seems to me that the program is more important to some than providing for the needs of the people that it is supposed to help.

Immie

We have been adjusting things in SS since it's establishment. There is no way to exactly plan for something like SS. Nobody has a crystal ball that can predict the things we'd need to know. Models are the best we have...flawed models, but one thing is clear...

..since day one conservatives have been screaming about SS being unsustainable, and here we are all these decades later. We will plug the hole. No problem.

I have faith in America.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

health care family feud

top 5 answers on the board.

here's the question: which country did ted kennedy choose for his end of life care?

Switzerland?

Show me Switzerland!

X

Great Britain?

Show me Great Britian!!

XX

Canada?

XXX

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

health care family feud

top 5 answers on the board.

here's the question: which country did ted kennedy choose for his end of life care?

Kennedy didn't get to choose country. He was an American.

Ted fought to try and get others the same quality of care he got.

Contrast that with what you propose and the Conservatives propose: a tiered system where you get to pay and get next to nothing in return.

I'll go with what Kennedy wanted Americans to have as opppsed ti your ''just say no'' approach.

*wink

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Poor Crusader Frank.

More Don Quixote than Crusader.

 

[GWV5903]

health care family feud

top 5 answers on the board.

here's the question: which country did ted kennedy choose for his end of life care?

Kennedy didn't get to choose country. He was an American.

Ted fought to try and get others the same quality of care he got.

Contrast that with what you propose and the Conservatives propose: a tiered system where you get to pay and get next to nothing in return.

I'll go with what Kennedy wanted Americans to have as opppsed ti your ''just say no'' approach.

*wink

I knew your where naive, but you are gullible too.....

All Uncle Teddy wanted is for you to believe that's what he wanted, he never intended for you to have the same care he received.....

 

[CrusaderFrank]

health care family feud

top 5 answers on the board.

here's the question: which country did ted kennedy choose for his end of life care?

Kennedy didn't get to choose country. He was an American.

Ted fought to try and get others the same quality of care he got.

Contrast that with what you propose and the Conservatives propose: a tiered system where you get to pay and get next to nothing in return.

I'll go with what Kennedy wanted Americans to have as opppsed ti your ''just say no'' approach.

*wink

Kennedy could have went anywhere on the planet for his care, why didn't he go to Canada or anywhere else, Mawst? There's no law that says Americans must stay in the USA, are you THAT dumb?

ObamaCare does NOT give everyone access to high quality care!!! In fact, under Emanuel's "Complete Lives Sysytem" Teddy would have been denied care!

 

[CrusaderFrank]

DevNell as Master Splinter

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

...

Ted fought to try and get others the same quality of care he got.

Contrast that with what you propose and the Conservatives propose: a tiered system where you get to pay and get next to nothing in return.

I'll go with what Kennedy wanted Americans to have as opppsed ti your ''just say no'' approach.

*wink

I knew your where naive, but you are gullible too.....

All Uncle Teddy wanted is for you to believe that's what he wanted, he never intended for you to have the same care he received.....

of course he did.

you stupid fuck

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

health care family feud

top 5 answers on the board.

here's the question: which country did ted kennedy choose for his end of life care?

Kennedy didn't get to choose country. He was an American.

Ted fought to try and get others the same quality of care he got.

Contrast that with what you propose and the Conservatives propose: a tiered system where you get to pay and get next to nothing in return.

I'll go with what Kennedy wanted Americans to have as opppsed ti your ''just say no'' approach.

*wink

Kennedy could have went anywhere on the planet for his care, why didn't he go to Canada or anywhere else, Mawst? There's no law that says Americans must stay in the USA, are you THAT dumb?

ObamaCare does NOT give everyone access to high quality care!!! In fact, under Emanuel's "Complete Lives Sysytem" Teddy would have been denied care!

yawn.

the final health care bill is still not finished and...

Teddy would.ve fought harder than others and for more access for everyone.

Ted Kennedy was a Man of the People. A true profile in courge, in the US Senate

 

[American Horse]

Because Canada's system is fubarred about as bad as England's.

Then why do you guys keep mentioning all these other countries and why we should be like them?

We have a lot of respect for Americans far beyond just their ingenuity. There could have been 50 individual experiments on this problem, but the federal government decided to try just one. Then when they couldn't make a reasonable plan that saved money, they came up with this bastardization. Ignoring waht Americans told them they didn't want by the way.

This is the essential problem with the current solution. Once enacted, there will be no place to go except for the very rich, and innovation will have been quashed outside of the control of a federal bureacracy.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Because Canada's system is fubarred about as bad as England's.

Then why do you guys keep mentioning all these other countries and why we should be like them?

We have a lot of respect for Americans far beyond just their ingenuity. There could have been 50 individual experiments on this problem, but the federal government decided to try just one. Then when they couldn't make a reasonable plan that saved money, they came up with this bastardization. Ignoring waht Americans told them they didn't want by the way.

This is the essential problem with the current solution. Once enacted, there will be no place to go except for the very rich, and innovation will have been quashed outside of the control of a federal bureacracy.

What innovation?

Do you even have a clue what we were talking about and what health insurance is?

There hasn't been innovation in how we pay for health care in ages.

We are NOT talking about medical research . We are talking about third party medical insurers....blood sucking profiteers who care shit about actual health carem

So again, I ask you....What innovation?