healthy civilization vs. leftist policies

Bern80

Gold Member
Jan 9, 2004
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Diuretic thought this would be an interesting discussion so here goes.

With the mortgage bail out and Obama championing universal health care I have to wonder the path the left is leading us down.

Very broadely the left seems to continually enact policies that shift personal responsibility from the individual to government. The ramificaations of which are staggering.

As a rule we become smarter, grow stronger, by meeting and overcomeing challenges. Our behavior is governed by the things that negatively impact us. We learn not to repeat behaviors that have a negative impact on us. The ol' the young child doesn't learn it'll hurt to touch the hot stove until he/she burns themselves on the hot stove. Yet in burning themselves the child has gained knowledge. A type of knowledge that is irreplaceable from just say mommy telling you that's gonna hurt. You won't even be curious about it anymore. You now know what will happen if you touch the hot stove, so you don't it again.

The left seems to be overly preoccupied with keeping people from 'burning' themselves. The mortgage bail out is a prime example. How are homebuyers going to learn not to take loans they have financial business taking out, if the government is just going to bail them out? How are banks going to learn to not approve such high risk loans, if the government is going to bail them out?

Under something like universal heatlhcare, how is removing the financal burden of healthcare an insentive for people to change their health habits?

All of these things make us weaker as a civilization because we are prevented from experiencing and responsibily dealing with the consequences of our actions. We don't have to deal with adversity anymore. It's like getting an A for effort. I got an A for trying to learn but not actually learning. Meanwhile the person who actual did learn has just be shown he really didn't need to put that kind of effort forth because he could have gotten an just for trying.
 
Nothing has weakened America more than Ronald Reagan and George Bush. 90% of our National Debt came from Ronald Reagan and George Bush.

Talk about abdicating personal responsibility!
 
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Nothing has weakened America more Ronald Reagan and George Bush. 90% of our National Debt came from Ronald Reagan and George Bush.

Talk about abdicating personal responsibility!

Still spouting that left wing slogal and outright lie...


Here's a hint... start looking at the actual numbers and facts rather than only the things you see from far left-wing activists....
 
Still spouting that left wing slogal and outright lie...


Here's a hint... start looking at the actual numbers and facts rather than only the things you see from far left-wing activists....

Reagan's own budget director said that the tax cuts were a "trojan horse" to lower taxes for the rich....

ReaganBushDebt.org
 
As stated... stop with the left wing propaganda and look at the facts....

Let you not forget the almost 2 trillion in additional debt under Clinton, the almost 1.5 MIL under GHWB, and the 900BIL before Reagan
 
Kirk never lets facts get in his way.

You forgot to point out that Reagan served all 8 years with a Democrat Congress holding the purse strings.
 
Kirk never lets facts get in his way.

You forgot to point out that Reagan served all 8 years with a Democrat Congress holding the purse strings.

Reagan's budget was passed with all the Republicans and a few southern dixiecrats voting for it.

Talk about abdicating responsibility!
 
The truth hurts....ouch!

national-debt-gdp.gif
 
Nothing has weakened America more than Ronald Reagan and George Bush. 90% of our National Debt came from Ronald Reagan and George Bush.

Talk about abdicating personal responsibility!

I figured this to be the response from you Kirk. Aside from the FACT that this patently false, I am not obfiscating members who claim to be of the right of shirking their duties either. Plenty of righties voted for the mortgage bill as well and they should be ashamed.

Again i thank you for addressing the topic.......

Further I would encourage others not to even entertain you as I don't want' pages of this thread to be taken up with people trying to rebut responses from a brick wall (said brick wall being you).

In an attempt to steer this back on course, debt in of itself is not a bad thing. The government haveing debt is no different from you or me haveing debt. Government, like us, purchases things it does not immediately have the money to pay for, the ability to consistantly pay off debt is actually a sign of financial health. Unless you have paid for everything in your life up front and in full the whold debt argument is essentiall meaningless. The only irresponsible part is taking on debt you can't handle or that is risky, i.e. no down ARM mortgages. And again government has taight peopel not to worry if you make a bad decision, they'll cover your ass.
 
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I figured this to be the response from you Kirk. Aside from the FACT that this patently false, I am not obfiscating members who claim to be of the right of shirking their duties either. Plenty of righties voted for the mortgage bill as well and they should be ashamed.

Again i thank you for addressing the topic.......

Further I would encourage others not to even entertain you as I don't want' pages of this thread to be taken up with people trying to rebut responses from a brick wall (said brick wall being you).


Numbers don't lie. Only people lie...

U.S. president Party Term years Start debt/GDP* End debt/GDP* Increase debt ($T) Increase debt/GDP
Roosevelt/Truman D 1945-1949 117.5% 93.2% 0.05 -24.3%
Truman Harry Truman D 1949-1953 93.2% 71.3% 0.01 -21.9%
Eisenhower1 Dwight Eisenhower R 1953-1957 71.3% 60.5% 0.01 -10.8%
Eisenhower2 Dwight Eisenhower R 1957-1961 60.5% 55.1% 0.02 -5.4%
Kennedy/Johnson D 1961-1965 55.1% 46.9% 0.03 -8.2%
Johnson Lyndon Johnson D 1965-1969 46.9% 38.6% 0.05 -8.3%
Nixon1 Richard Nixon R 1969-1973 38.6% 35.7% 0.07 -2.9%
Nixon2 Nixon/Ford R 1973-1977 35.7% 35.8% 0.19 +0.1%
Carter Jimmy Carter D 1977-1981 35.8% 32.6% 0.18 -3.2%
Reagan1 Ronald Reagan R 1981-1985 32.6% 43.9% 0.65 +11.3%
Reagan2 Ronald Reagan R 1985-1989 43.9% 53.1% 1.04 +9.2%
Bush GHW George H. W. Bush R 1989-1993 53.1% 66.2% 1.40 +13.1%
Clinton1 Bill Clinton D 1993-1997 66.2% 65.6% 1.12 -0.6%
Clinton2 Bill Clinton D 1997-2001 65.6% 57.4% 0.42 -8.2%
Bush GW1 George W. Bush R 2001-2005 57.4% 64.3% 1.15 +6.9%
Bush GW2 George W. Bush R 2005-2009 projection 64.3% 68.2% projection +3.9% projection
 
I figured this to be the response from you Kirk. Aside from the FACT that this patently false, I am not obfiscating members who claim to be of the right of shirking their duties either. Plenty of righties voted for the mortgage bill as well and they should be ashamed.

Again i thank you for addressing the topic.......

Further I would encourage others not to even entertain you as I don't want' pages of this thread to be taken up with people trying to rebut responses from a brick wall (said brick wall being you).

In an attempt to steer this back on course, debt in of itself is not a bad thing. The government haveing debt is no different from you or me haveing debt. Government, like us, purchases things it does not immediately have the money to pay for, the ability to consistantly pay off debt is actually a sign of financial health. Unless you have paid for everything in your life up front and in full the whold debt argument is essentiall meaningless. The only irresponsible part is taking on debt you can't handle or that is risky, i.e. no down ARM mortgages. And again government has taight peopel not to worry if you make a bad decision, they'll cover your ass.

The two biggest problems America faces are our dependence on foreign oil and our debt. The Republicans have made one of these problems worse by ignoring energy conservation and alternative energy. They have made the other problem worse with their ridiculous tax cut and spend "supply side economics." That is why America is weaker, not because of some imaginary "leftists."
 
Socialism always makes everyone weaker.
All countries are socialist to an extent. The military is a social program. The corporations receive social benefits. All taxpayers receive social benefits.

The trick is finding a happy medium.

To say socialism makes everyone weaker is to say America has always been weak, and I doubt that is what you meant to say.
 
The military is a social program.

We've thoroughly debunked this liberal myth before... please refrain from trying to use it as a 'factual' talking point again

There will be social programs in most every governmental system.. but a government predicated and based on socialism will always be a failure and always weaken the country and the populace... socialism as a primary basis or theme in government is a failue
 
All countries are socialist to an extent. The military is a social program. The corporations receive social benefits. All taxpayers receive social benefits.

The trick is finding a happy medium.

To say socialism makes everyone weaker is to say America has always been weak, and I doubt that is what you meant to say.

It's not what I am saying at least. I have no problem with social programs that help people that need it. I define that as people who are uncapable of helping themselves.

I have a problem with policies that let people off the hook. That allow people to not deal with the consequences of their actions and that make it easier or give people an excuse not be self reliant. Unfortuinately it is those bad characteristics that are prevalant in so many leftist policies.
 
It's not what I am saying at least. I have no problem with social programs that help people that need it. I define that as people who are uncapable of helping themselves.

I have a problem with policies that let people off the hook. That allow people to not deal with the consequences of their actions and that make it easier or give people an excuse not be self reliant. Unfortuinately it is those bad characteristics that are prevalant in so many leftist policies.

If a person is sick or old, they should be self reliant.
 

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