Gun owners face much higher murder risk....NRA kills study

[martybegan]

So the government has prevented outside groups who want to do this study access to the data the CDC would have used?

the CDC should concentrate on communicable diseases, its actual purpose, and leave the social engineering to others.

Calling the dangers posed by having a gun in the house "social engineering" is naïve at its face, irresponsible at its conclusion.

and using an government agency that was started to fight communicable diseases to do your gun grabbing dirty work is bad, but saying that the NRA stopped any work on this from happening is a flat out lie.

The data is still there, if some group wants to fudge numbers to make their "gunz badz, I has a sadz" point, then they should use their own money for it.

The clever NRA squelched the money to publish and distribute the study.

again, is the data still available via an FOI request?

I'm not sure.

Then how about you find out before you accuse the NRA of "blocking" this information from getting out?

 

[martybegan]

MMS Error

Results
During the study period, 1860 homicides occurred in the three counties, 444 of them (23.9 percent) in the home of the victim. After excluding 24 cases for various reasons, we interviewed proxy respondents for 93 percent of the victims. Controls were identified for 99 percent of these, yielding 388 matched pairs. As compared with the controls, the victims more often lived alone or rented their residence. Also, case households more commonly contained an illicit-drug user, a person with prior arrests, or someone who had been hit or hurt in a fight in the home. After controlling for these characteristics, we found that keeping a gun in the home was strongly and independently associated with an increased risk of homicide (adjusted odds ratio, 2.7; 95 percent confidence interval, 1.6 to 4.4). Virtually all of this risk involved homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.
Full Text of Results...
Conclusions
The use of illicit drugs and a history of physical fights in the home are important risk factors for homicide in the home. Rather than confer protection, guns kept in the home are associated with an increase in the risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.

Really....kellerman...again.......here we go....some articles showing how wrong he was......he is just rabidly anti gun.....

This one directly talks about who owned the gun...

Kellermann-Gun Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home

Whose gun?

In a letter to the editor in the New England Journal of Medicine, "The students of Dr. Mark Ferris's Mathematical Statistics 460" class ask, "In how many of the homicides was the victim killed with a gun that was kept in the house rather than a gun that was brought to the house by the perpetrator?" The question is a relevant one since, as the letter also notes, the study's authors had stated in part based on their findings that "people should be strongly discouraged from keeping guns in their homes [p. 1090]." In other words, advising people against keeping a gun in the home doesn't make sense unless it causes an increase in homicide risk.


Kellermann's first response to the students was incorrect: "Ninety-three percent of the homicides involving firearms occurred in homes where a gun was kept, according to the proxy respondents." In a follow-up letter (four years later) Kellermann acknowledges his error, but still fails to directly answer the question.

Kellermann's own data suggests that for all gun homicides of matched cases no more than 34% were murdered by a gun from the victim's home. (GunCite's analysis of Kellermann's data.) (The data, such as it is, is available at http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/cgi/archive.prl?study=6898). 34% is probably on the charitable side since it assumes all family member or intimate homicides were commited by offenders living with the victim which is highly unlikely given that not all intimates (as defined in the Kellermann dataset: spouse, parents, in-laws, siblings, other relatives, and lovers) were likely to have lived with an adult victim.


A subsequent study, again by Kellermann, of fatal and non-fatal gunshot woundings, showed that only 14.2% of the shootings involving a gun whose origins were known, involved a gun kept in the home where the shooting occurred. (Kellermann, et. al. 1998. "Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home." Journal of Trauma 45:263-267) ("The authors reported that among those 438 assaultive gunshot woundings, 49 involved a gun 'kept in the home where the shooting occurred,' 295 involved a gun brought to the scene from elsewhere, and another 94 involved a gun whose origins were not noted by the police [p. 252].") (Kleck, Gary. "Can Owning a Gun Really Triple the Owner's Chances of Being Murdered?" Homicide Studies 5 [2001].)

This is more technical....

Serious Flaws in Kellerman

this is the introduction to an abstract by Kleck and Gertz refuting kellerman...

Can Owning a Gun Really Triple the Owner s Chances of being Murdered

sing a case-control design comparing homicide victims with matched nonvictims, Kellermann et al. (1993) concluded that keeping a gun in one's home increased the risk of being murdered by a factor of 2.7. The authors' underlying assumption was that a significant elevation in homicide risk derived from the risk of being murdered with a gun kept in the victim's home. This article shows that homicides are rarely committed with guns belonging to members of the victim's home and that such killings could be responsible for no more than a 2.4% increase in the relative risk of being murdered. Guns in one's own home have little to do with homicide risk. Scholars need to attend more closely to the mechanisms by which an alleged causal effect is supposed to operate and to consider their plausibility before concluding that an association reflects a causal effect.

Anyone who quotes Kellerman automatically wins the "I can't think for myself" award for meritorious service in the infringement of 2nd amendment rights.

 

[Nosmo King]

Calling the dangers posed by having a gun in the house "social engineering" is naïve at its face, irresponsible at its conclusion.

and using an government agency that was started to fight communicable diseases to do your gun grabbing dirty work is bad, but saying that the NRA stopped any work on this from happening is a flat out lie.

The data is still there, if some group wants to fudge numbers to make their "gunz badz, I has a sadz" point, then they should use their own money for it.

The clever NRA squelched the money to publish and distribute the study.

again, is the data still available via an FOI request?

I'm not sure.

Then how about you find out before you accuse the NRA of "blocking" this information from getting out?

I know the heavy hand of the NRA is involved in squelching the study. I'm not sure if the data is compiled and in publishable form

 

[2aguy]

A link would be nice...but thanks for showing us that none of your gun control measures will keep criminals from getting the guns they want or need.......for example....the most...freinds or family...the people who can pass background checks get the guns for the felons.....so even Universal background checks and gun registration will fail.......retail store...again...freinds and family....gun show......if they can't pass a background check you can't keep people from selling them guns if they are willing to go to jail if caught....

So again...all of the categories above show that there are no ways to preemptively keep guns out of the hands of criminals......

The best way....if you catch someone using a gun illegally.....arrest them and put them in jail....problem solved...

If you catch a convicted felon in possession of a gun....arrest them and put them in prison...problem solved...

No extra paperwork, no more hassles for law abiding gun owners....but that isn't what you guys want is it.....you could care less about the criminals....you just want to go after Americans who own guns....

 

[2aguy]

What everyone has known for decades, having a gun in your home does not make you safer

Gun owners face much higher murder risks researchers said. Then the NRA silenced them.

The most common reason that people have a gun is because they have it for home protection,” he says. “Unfortunately, the data indicates that having a gun is associated with both an increased risk of homicide, but even more importantly, an increased risk of suicide. We know that, for example, if there’s a gun in the home, the risk of suicide among adolescents and young adults increases tenfold.”
Back in 1993, Rivara and his colleagues released this information in a series of articles that appeared in the New England Journal of Medicine, one of the most highly respected medical journals in the world. The NRA quickly went after the research — as well as Rivara and his colleagues.
Rivara says 10 pro-gun senators worked to get the ear of Arlen Specter, then a senator from Pennsylvania and chairman of the Health and Human Services Committee.
“[Specter] approached the Centers for Disease and Control and discussed the idea that this research was biased,” says Rivara. Congress “ended up cutting the CDC budget by the exact amount of money that was used to fund the gun research. They had first threatened to cut all of the funding for injury research at the CDC. They didn’t do that, but they ended up cutting it by the exact amount that was spent on gun research.”



.



.

And of course.....looking at the study by Kellerman...and this nut.....if a rival gang member breaks into your home that is the increased risk of homicide in the home they are talking about.....

And suicide...again...really......Japan, South Korea have absolute gun control....for you gun grabbers out there that means they have no guns available to use to commit suicide....but....they still commit suicide at 2 times the rate that Americans do......no guns, more suicide...

So....by your logic....would that mean if we forced the Japanese and South Koreans to own guns that their suicide rate would go down?

 

[rightwinger]

You guys do realize that gun murder rates are going down not up....right....and gun accident rates are going down, not up......with more Americans than ever owning and actually caring guns.....11.1 million people now carry guns for self defense and again, the gun murder rate is going down............according to real research that is....

 

[martybegan]

and using an government agency that was started to fight communicable diseases to do your gun grabbing dirty work is bad, but saying that the NRA stopped any work on this from happening is a flat out lie.

The data is still there, if some group wants to fudge numbers to make their "gunz badz, I has a sadz" point, then they should use their own money for it.

The clever NRA squelched the money to publish and distribute the study.

again, is the data still available via an FOI request?

I'm not sure.

Then how about you find out before you accuse the NRA of "blocking" this information from getting out?

I know the heavy hand of the NRA is involved in squelching the study. I'm not sure if the data is compiled and in publishable form

So only the government can compile and publish it?

 

[Skull Pilot]

So were the guns lawfully owned? Did the gun owners have criminal records?


Or are these people just piece of shit scumbags?

As usual your so called polls are lacking much relevant info.

Ask the NRA

They killed the study

The study was done wasn't it?

The results have to be out there somewhere

The NRA squelched any money to have the study published and distributed.

So why does a government agency have to do the study? surely one of those progressive control freak organizations can foot the bill for it.

So that the dismissal on political grounds can be waved. Would you have any trust in a study conducted by a think tank with political motivation? Would a study by the NRA produce only the conclusions they desire?

Why not as long as the data is available to anyone who wants to confirm the findings. Isn't that the way science is supposed to work?

Do you trust any research not done by government?

 

[2aguy]

You guys do realize that gun murder rates are going down not up....right....and gun accident rates are going down, not up......with more Americans than ever owning and actually caring guns.....11.1 million people now carry guns for self defense and again, the gun murder rate is going down............according to real research that is....

And it is always nice you don't mention that the General Social Survey is done by an anti gunner who told John Lott that he wants his work to encourage politicians to pass more gun laws........and considering that it isn't accurate on top of that.....thanks for trying...

Why is it that the gun grabbers lie every single time...........well....reality doesn't back up their desire to control people and guns......

 

[2aguy]

Here is some info on anti gun studies....
https://saf.org/journal/11/kleckfinal.htm
Although we systematically rebut each of Hemenwayls H claims we

 

[Liminal]

What everyone has known for decades, having a gun in your home does not make you safer

Gun owners face much higher murder risks researchers said. Then the NRA silenced them.

The most common reason that people have a gun is because they have it for home protection,” he says. “Unfortunately, the data indicates that having a gun is associated with both an increased risk of homicide, but even more importantly, an increased risk of suicide. We know that, for example, if there’s a gun in the home, the risk of suicide among adolescents and young adults increases tenfold.”
Back in 1993, Rivara and his colleagues released this information in a series of articles that appeared in the New England Journal of Medicine, one of the most highly respected medical journals in the world. The NRA quickly went after the research — as well as Rivara and his colleagues.
Rivara says 10 pro-gun senators worked to get the ear of Arlen Specter, then a senator from Pennsylvania and chairman of the Health and Human Services Committee.
“[Specter] approached the Centers for Disease and Control and discussed the idea that this research was biased,” says Rivara. Congress “ended up cutting the CDC budget by the exact amount of money that was used to fund the gun research. They had first threatened to cut all of the funding for injury research at the CDC. They didn’t do that, but they ended up cutting it by the exact amount that was spent on gun research.”



.



.

Gun control is a losing issue for Democrats, they should let it go. Unless they really want to increase their chances of losing in 2016.

 

[2aguy]

You guys do realize that gun murder rates are going down not up....right....and gun accident rates are going down, not up......with more Americans than ever owning and actually caring guns.....11.1 million people now carry guns for self defense and again, the gun murder rate is going down............according to real research that is....

And it is always nice you don't mention that the General Social Survey is done by an anti gunner who told John Lott that he wants his work to encourage politicians to pass more gun laws........and considering that it isn't accurate on top of that.....thanks for trying...

Why is it that the gun grabbers lie every single time...........well....reality doesn't back up their desire to control people and guns......

And as to the General Social Survey....

Is gun ownership really down in America Fox News

Surely, gun control advocates such as GSS director Tom Smith view this decline as a good thing. In a 2003 book of mine, I quoted Smith as saying that the large drop in gun ownership would “make it easier for politicians to do the right thing on guns” and pass more restrictive regulations.

Other gun control advocates have mentioned to me that they hope that if people believe fewer people own guns, that may cause others to rethink their decision to own one themselves. It is part of the reason they dramatically exaggerate the risks of having guns in the home.


The Associated Press and Time ignored other polls by Gallup and ABC News/Washington Post. These polls show that gun ownership rates have been flat over the same period. According to Gallup, household gun ownership has ranged from 51 percent in 1994 to 34 percent in 1999. In 2014, it was at 42 percent – comparable to the 43-45 percent figures during the 1970s.


A 2011 Gallup poll with the headline “Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993” appears to have gotten no news coverage.

 

[Liminal]

You guys do realize that gun murder rates are going down not up....right....and gun accident rates are going down, not up......with more Americans than ever owning and actually caring guns.....11.1 million people now carry guns for self defense and again, the gun murder rate is going down............according to real research that is....

This graph is entirely meaningless, since they have no way of counting all the illegal guns.

 

[2aguy]

What everyone has known for decades, having a gun in your home does not make you safer

Gun owners face much higher murder risks researchers said. Then the NRA silenced them.

The most common reason that people have a gun is because they have it for home protection,” he says. “Unfortunately, the data indicates that having a gun is associated with both an increased risk of homicide, but even more importantly, an increased risk of suicide. We know that, for example, if there’s a gun in the home, the risk of suicide among adolescents and young adults increases tenfold.”
Back in 1993, Rivara and his colleagues released this information in a series of articles that appeared in the New England Journal of Medicine, one of the most highly respected medical journals in the world. The NRA quickly went after the research — as well as Rivara and his colleagues.
Rivara says 10 pro-gun senators worked to get the ear of Arlen Specter, then a senator from Pennsylvania and chairman of the Health and Human Services Committee.
“[Specter] approached the Centers for Disease and Control and discussed the idea that this research was biased,” says Rivara. Congress “ended up cutting the CDC budget by the exact amount of money that was used to fund the gun research. They had first threatened to cut all of the funding for injury research at the CDC. They didn’t do that, but they ended up cutting it by the exact amount that was spent on gun research.”



.



.

Gun control is a losing issue for Democrats, they should let it go. Unless they really want to increase their chances of losing in 2016.

It is a losing issue for democrat politicians...that is why they are going to the courts.....if hilary wins election she will probably appoint more justices to the Supreme Court than any other President in a long time.......and they will not be Pro Bill of Rights........so democrat politicians can pretend to be pro gun all day long as their minions on the court cut away at gun ownership.....

 

[Edgetho]

This is what I mean, people.

Lying, scum of the earth dimocrap filth start a thread based on a lie and we (stupidly) respond to it.

Then dimocrap filth lie some more.

We respond to that and --

dimocrap filth lie some more.

We debunk that lie and --

dimocrap filth find another dimocrap scum to lie for them.

An Objective Response to the Exec Director of Coalition to Stop Gun Violence s Truth About Gun Sales - Guns.com

What are those obvious discrepancies?

Gallup says that 34% of all Americans personally own a gun (GSS contends only 20.8% personally own a gun). And that 47% of Americans have a gun in their home or elsewhere on their property (32.3% on the GSS graph).

Who do you believe? Gallup or GSS?

Before you answer that question, you may want to consider the following.

First, this graph by Gallup showing increased support for the lawful possession of handguns:

Next, this graph showing the increased support for concealed carry across the country:

The point is this, even if one accepts the GSS stats and assumes for a moment that gun ownership is declining, one would still have to explain the increased support for gun ownership and concealed carry across the country.

It stands to reason that if fewer people were purchasing firearms and the gun community was actually shrinking, then the states would be less inclined to expand gun rights. But as we’ve seen over the past decade, increasingly, states are embracing gun ownership and gun culture.

In short, all signs suggest that the gun community is growing, not shrinking.

 

[rightwinger]

A link would be nice...but thanks for showing us that none of your gun control measures will keep criminals from getting the guns they want or need.......for example....the most...freinds or family...the people who can pass background checks get the guns for the felons.....so even Universal background checks and gun registration will fail.......retail store...again...freinds and family....gun show......if they can't pass a background check you can't keep people from selling them guns if they are willing to go to jail if caught....

So again...all of the categories above show that there are no ways to preemptively keep guns out of the hands of criminals......

The best way....if you catch someone using a gun illegally.....arrest them and put them in jail....problem solved...

If you catch a convicted felon in possession of a gun....arrest them and put them in prison...problem solved...

No extra paperwork, no more hassles for law abiding gun owners....but that isn't what you guys want is it.....you could care less about the criminals....you just want to go after Americans who own guns....

That is why we need registration

"Borrow" a gun from your cousin and use in in a crime and your cousin is charged as an accessory

Won't find as many people willing to loan guns to criminals

 

[2aguy]

This is what I mean, people.

Lying, scum of the earth dimocrap filth start a thread based on a lie and we (stupidly) respond to it.

Then dimocrap filth lie some more.

We respond to that and --

dimocrap filth lie some more.

We debunk that lie and --

dimocrap filth find another dimocrap scum to lie for them.

An Objective Response to the Exec Director of Coalition to Stop Gun Violence s Truth About Gun Sales - Guns.com

What are those obvious discrepancies?

Gallup says that 34% of all Americans personally own a gun (GSS contends only 20.8% personally own a gun). And that 47% of Americans have a gun in their home or elsewhere on their property (32.3% on the GSS graph).

Who do you believe? Gallup or GSS?

Before you answer that question, you may want to consider the following.

First, this graph by Gallup showing increased support for the lawful possession of handguns:

Next, this graph showing the increased support for concealed carry across the country:

The point is this, even if one accepts the GSS stats and assumes for a moment that gun ownership is declining, one would still have to explain the increased support for gun ownership and concealed carry across the country.

It stands to reason that if fewer people were purchasing firearms and the gun community was actually shrinking, then the states would be less inclined to expand gun rights. But as we’ve seen over the past decade, increasingly, states are embracing gun ownership and gun culture.

In short, all signs suggest that the gun community is growing, not shrinking.

Plus record gun sales.....and no....the same 2 people are not buying several new guns each year......

 

[Liminal]

What everyone has known for decades, having a gun in your home does not make you safer

Gun owners face much higher murder risks researchers said. Then the NRA silenced them.

The most common reason that people have a gun is because they have it for home protection,” he says. “Unfortunately, the data indicates that having a gun is associated with both an increased risk of homicide, but even more importantly, an increased risk of suicide. We know that, for example, if there’s a gun in the home, the risk of suicide among adolescents and young adults increases tenfold.”
Back in 1993, Rivara and his colleagues released this information in a series of articles that appeared in the New England Journal of Medicine, one of the most highly respected medical journals in the world. The NRA quickly went after the research — as well as Rivara and his colleagues.
Rivara says 10 pro-gun senators worked to get the ear of Arlen Specter, then a senator from Pennsylvania and chairman of the Health and Human Services Committee.
“[Specter] approached the Centers for Disease and Control and discussed the idea that this research was biased,” says Rivara. Congress “ended up cutting the CDC budget by the exact amount of money that was used to fund the gun research. They had first threatened to cut all of the funding for injury research at the CDC. They didn’t do that, but they ended up cutting it by the exact amount that was spent on gun research.”



.



.

Gun control is a losing issue for Democrats, they should let it go. Unless they really want to increase their chances of losing in 2016.

It is a losing issue for democrat politicians...that is why they are going to the courts.....if hilary wins election she will probably appoint more justices to the Supreme Court than any other President in a long time.......and they will not be Pro Bill of Rights........so democrat politicians can pretend to be pro gun all day long as their minions on the court cut away at gun ownership.....

I agree, the Democrats have a long term strategy. Banning handguns in San Francisco was intended to be a national test case, they lost in the Supreme court, but Democrats will just try some other angle. Every time they start acting serious about gun control I vote for Republicans.

 

[2aguy]

A link would be nice...but thanks for showing us that none of your gun control measures will keep criminals from getting the guns they want or need.......for example....the most...freinds or family...the people who can pass background checks get the guns for the felons.....so even Universal background checks and gun registration will fail.......retail store...again...freinds and family....gun show......if they can't pass a background check you can't keep people from selling them guns if they are willing to go to jail if caught....

So again...all of the categories above show that there are no ways to preemptively keep guns out of the hands of criminals......

The best way....if you catch someone using a gun illegally.....arrest them and put them in jail....problem solved...

If you catch a convicted felon in possession of a gun....arrest them and put them in prison...problem solved...

No extra paperwork, no more hassles for law abiding gun owners....but that isn't what you guys want is it.....you could care less about the criminals....you just want to go after Americans who own guns....

That is why we need registration

"Borrow" a gun from your cousin and use in in a crime and your cousin is charged as an accessory

Won't find as many people willing to loan guns to criminals

Boy...that is just stupid...they don't do it like that, the cousin reports the gun stolen and the gang puts the gun in communal property for all of their members to use......or the cousin says....I never said he could use it.......then what genius.............

Registering guns does nothing to stop crime or solve crime....Canada tried to register just long guns and it was impossible, too expensive and didn't solve or prevent one crime....so they stopped doing it....and that was with just 15 million guns....we have over 320 million right now.....and they only tried it with long guns...not handguns......

 

[Nosmo King]

The clever NRA squelched the money to publish and distribute the study.

again, is the data still available via an FOI request?

I'm not sure.

Then how about you find out before you accuse the NRA of "blocking" this information from getting out?

I know the heavy hand of the NRA is involved in squelching the study. I'm not sure if the data is compiled and in publishable form

So only the government can compile and publish it?

Government conducted the study. Would you have raw data compiled by a politically motivated organization?