Give 'em an inch...

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by jimnyc, Dec 7, 2003.

  1. jimnyc
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    jimnyc ...

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    **This is really getting out of hand! Since when is there a "Law" stating separation of church and state?**

    ''God Bless the U.S.A.,'' a patriotic anthem made popular by singer Lee Greenwood during the 1991 Gulf War, ignited a war of words between some parents and officials when it was learned an upcoming school performance would substitute the words ''I love'' for 'God bless.''

    The show's directors decided to substitute ''I love the U.S.A.'' during rehearsals for the performance at Pacifica High School in Ventura County, California, when someone on the committee suggested the word ''God'' might be a ''problem.''

    When angry parents found out about the change, some withdrew their children from the 'Cinemagic' program, while others wrote protesting e-mails to the school board and district leaders, reports the Ventura County Star.

    ''It's OK for you to say 'God,' '' parent Kaila Kaden told the paper. ''It's not a religious issue. It's a freedom of speech issue.''

    The show's sponsor, the Pleasant Valley Education Foundation, provides support for bands, speech programs and choruses. Because it's not officially affiliated with the district, committee members decided to check with school officials to make sure the word ''God'' would not violate laws separating church and state.

    The school board OK'd the original lyrics.

    According to the paper, School Board President Ron Speakman said the situation was a misinterpretation of state law and district policy. While schools cannot advocate any certain religion, Speakman said laws do not forbid reference to God. ''It was a misguided attempt to be politically correct, and it has been rectified,'' Speakman said.

    Committee chairwoman Peggy Smith said words have been changed before in the show's three-year history.

    ''We didn't want a lawsuit," Smith told the Star. "It could lead to the demise of Cinemagic and arts programs ... because of one word."

    Sheila Myers was among the parents who wrote e-mails disagreeing with the words "I love the U.S.A."

    She says she was moved to tears when she heard the children sing the song with "God" in the lyrics again.

    ''It just really moved me,'' she told the Star. ''It's one area in our lives not being tainted by political correctness.''

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35998
     
  2. jimnyc
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    jimnyc ...

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    The Myth of the Separation of Church and State

    Anytime religion is mentioned within the confines of government today people cry, "Separation of Church and State". Many people think this statement appears in the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution and therefore must be strictly enforced. However, the words: "separation", "church", and "state" do not even appear in the first amendment. The first amendment reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." The statement about a wall of separation between church and state was made in a letter on January 1, 1802, by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut. The congregation heard a widespread rumor that the Congregationalists, another denomination, were to become the national religion. This was very alarming to people who knew about religious persecution in England by the state established church. Jefferson made it clear in his letter to the Danbury Congregation that the separation was to be that government would not establish a national religion or dictate to men how to worship God. Jefferson's letter from which the phrase "separation of church and state" was taken affirmed first amendment rights. Jefferson wrote:

    I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. (1)

    The reason Jefferson choose the expression "separation of church and state" was because he was addressing a Baptist congregation; a denomination of which he was not a member. Jefferson wanted to remove all fears that the state would make dictates to the church. He was establishing common ground with the Baptists by borrowing the words of Roger Williams, one of the Baptist's own prominent preachers. Williams had said:

    When they have opened a gap in the hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the Church and the wilderness of the world, God hath ever broke down the wall itself, removed the candlestick, and made his garden a wilderness, as at this day. And that there fore if He will eer please to restore His garden and paradise again, it must of necessity be walled in peculiarly unto Himself from the world...(2)

    The "wall" was understood as one-directional; its purpose was to protect the church from the state. The world was not to corrupt the church, yet the church was free to teach the people Biblical values.

    http://www.noapathy.org/tracts/mythofseparation.html
     
  3. Moi
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    Moi Active Member

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    The stupidity will never end. Why choose a song, written by someone else, that you want to sing only to change the lyrics? I couldn't care less if these people sang the song or not but if you choose the song, sing the words.

    There are tons of patriotic songs with no reference to a deity to choose from- what was their need to bastardize someone else's tribute to his country.

    Finally, as I digress, liberal arts should be removed from public schools anyway. What a waste of resources.
     
  4. DKSuddeth
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    DKSuddeth Senior Member

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    It will someday. I have to be embarassed for my fellow liberals who continue to press this issue. It is such a non issue. The bottom line is if you don't want to say it, don't say it. otherwise, leave well enough alone. There are more important things to deal with.

    what should we have moi? nothing but war college, military schools for training and tactics? finance and economic schooling?

    really, there needs to be a balance. Otherwise we, as a people, will never grow or progress.
     
  5. Moi
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    Moi Active Member

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    I didn't say that arts should not be taught, I said that they should not be the responsibility of the public school system. I do not think it's one of the responsibilities of government to give someone exposure to their hobbies such as music, art, theatre and sports? The public school system is failing at the fundamental levels: reading, writing, arithmetic, computer studies, etc. It's seems quite wasteful to spend money on arts and sports when our children aren't graduating with skills enough to get jobs.
     
  6. Psychoblues
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    Psychoblues Senior Member

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    It's been my experience that employers are not really looking at non-critical skills such as "art, theatre and sports" but on more fundemental measures as "commitment, goal-objectives and abilities to achieve. To intimate otherwise is unwise and un-called-for.
     
  7. jimnyc
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    jimnyc ...

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    To not utilize your brain while posting is what's uncalled for.

    And where did you gain such valuable experience, towing cars from the local trailer parks? :laugh:
     
  8. Moi
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    Moi Active Member

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    I don't think it's a secret that the children attending public schools today are being graduated with less than proficient skills such as reading, writing and arithmetic not to mention such job related skills as computer readiness, typing or even basic life skills like being able to make a budget and/or balance a check book. There are literally thousands of studies being conducted every day whose results indicate that our public schools are failing our children.

    Additionally, most graduates of inner-city and poor community schools quite rightly believe that they are not going to be accepted at top colleges. I don't blame them or think that they are incapable of learning. Schools with no books, computers, internet connections or even simple typewriters are too common. A government which diverts funds to art, theatre, music or sports is doing their citizens a disservice. Are these children to relegate themselves to being drug dealers or flipping burgers if they have the natural intelligence and desire for more? Are they to resign themselves to feeling inferior in today's work place because they weren't afforded an education which allowed them to continue with higher education?

    Contrary to the utopia that I wish our country was, today's employers have myriad places from which to get their workers. Those with real skills, work experience and the ability to prove themselves will rise to the top. Those that don't, too frequently, fall to the bottom and become society's problem forever.

    Since there are limited resources for schools, it's my opinion that those resources are better served equipping each student for success...as an administrative assistant, as a book keeper or to continue on to higher education.
     
  9. Psychoblues
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    Psychoblues Senior Member

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    I can't help but agree, Moi

    But at this juncture I reserve further comment. Some dig it, some don't. I will say, however, that THERE ARE NO MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR KIDS. Some intend to help them and some intend to hinder them. It's not just a political choice.
     
  10. Isaac Brock
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    Isaac Brock Active Member

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    Rubbish, even as a student of one of the most practical and pragmatic studies, engineering, I can't help but disagree with you. Math, Writing, History and Science allow you to develop the fundamental skills to relate and work in the world and they are no doubt important. However it is Sports, Arts, Music and Literature truly allow you to appreciate the world and the part we play in it.

    If it weren't for my days in the school band and my experiences as a competitive rower, I daresay, my life would be terribly blands.
    Literature allowed by the experience times in which I could never be a part.
    Music allowed me to express myself and be expressed to in a universal language that is understood by all members of the human race regardless or race or relgion.
    Sports allowed me to find out how strong and how devoted I can be and always tested my limits. It also taught me how to stay fit and eat healthy.

    I daresay the liberal arts are essential in well rounded human being. To say otherwise is live in an Orwellian world devoid of passion. I say this not belittle or insult, but because I feel our education is leaning to hard away from what defines us as unique individuals into an education that makes us, well, drones.
     

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