Giuliani Voices Continued Support for Public Funding of Abortion

[Bern80]

That's what *you* believe.

Me? I believe there's a big difference between life and potential life and you don't have the right to impose your religious belief that a life exists at conception on me....same as I would never tell anyone they had to have an abortion.

My belief is not based on religion. I beleive in a higher power but don't subscribe to any specific group. My belief is based on common sense. Simply that there is no reason to think or believe that a baby is somehow less human the second before it comes out of the womb or the week or 2 months before or whatever. If a line could be drawn that said after 2 months, 3 days, 2 hrs and 7 minutes after conception this thing inside is human I would be all for drawing such a line. It would make this debate a hell of a lot easier. But we both know it probably isn't that simple. But for the abortion debate to work that thing inside has to be something other than human right up to the second before it comes out of the womb. Otherwise you are stuck in my previously mentioned paradox.

 

[Puddles]

and have you considered that you are the opposite extreme? That you are so worried about a possible future that it simply isn't worth the risk?

You're not understanding my position. I don't care either way what the parents decide to do as it's none of my concern or anyone else's for that matter. I'm just trying to present ONE position as to why abortion should not be prohibited if a mother choses to do so. I rather focus on the quality of life instead for the sake of a life.

I would much rather pay taxes to help when needed then pay to kill an innocent baby (or fetus.... whichever is most convenient for you).

I do believe you are in the minority. Perhaps if you weren't it, may be feasible to have every pregnancy result in a birth.

 

[Puddles]

Puddles we had this discussion before, yet your back to preaching your old mantra.

I'm not preaching, I'm giving my opinion which I believe what message boards are intended for.

Your justification for abortion now, as it was then, is that it's okay because the baby's life will suck anyway? I'm speechless, other than to say it is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Who has better judgement?

That's not actually what I said, you just have selective reading skills.

Well obviously the parent's judgement sucks or they wouldn't be in that situation in the first place.

That's pretty judgmental...no actually that's very judgmental as you have no idea why they are in the situation. Even if you did, it's not your position to judge.

Then again, It shouldn't surprise me. One thing I have noticed is that liberals don't believe in the concept of equal opportunity. they believe in equal outcomes and a risk free life. I was born into family that planned for me, yet when i was four I got cancer anyway through not fault of mine or theirs, yet you are saying, and yes you are saying this, if they had known it was going to happen they should have aborted me. Or what about you, were you planned? Should you be here under your pretext?

Pretty low blow considering that's not what I said or implied...very disappointing to hear this.

I am not completely oppossed to abortion, but the rationale you are using is as bad as it gets.

You don't even have a clue about my rationale

 

[Puddles]

Amazing, since I never stated what my position was.

Funny since that's what you have done to me...not nice, huh?

I was arguing the merits of abortion by attempting to refute Puddle's argument that the reason to have them is that the baby's life will turn out poorly anyway.

For the last time, that's not my argument for having an abortion

No I want a woman to decide. Preferabbly before she's actually pregnant.

Yeah that makes real sense...especially if she used birth control and got pregnant anyways.

Your last sentence is completely false because it assumes that laws can't be overturned. Why is it that all you concentrate on is the woman, the woman, the woman. There is another life at stake here, or potential life (whichever helps you sleep better). That is my concern. Once a child is conceived the two people that conceived it are parents and that it is their duty to do what is in the best interest of the child.

No the 2 people are parents AFTER the child is born. When an egg and fertilize, it's not a child just yet and has no feeling or senses therefore, there is no reason to be concern about what it feels, etc. Do you show the same concern for all the lives out there that go hungry at night or that are homeless, abused? What about their concern and safety?

Of course the biggest focus is on the woman since it effects her the most AT THAT POINT IN TIME AS THE CHILD DOES NOT EXIST AS OF YET.

Puddles argument was that they would be doing what is in the best interest of the child (in her belief) by aborting it because the child will most likely have a poor life because it was an unwanted pregnancy. How many fewere people would there be on this earth on that basis alone do you think? And more to the point how many great people would we not have? Maybe Ghandi or Mother Theresa were unplanned pregnancies who knows. The point is that is all I was arguing. The rationale she chose for protecting abortion is absurd.

That's not what I said. Also, back then we didn't have over-population, shortage of resources and various environmental problems...things are very different now. More importantly, I'm a believer in fate and think that those meant to achieve greatness and make a mark in history or humankind will do so.

I believe a child in the womb at some point becomes a person.

Ah ha!!! AT SOME POINT. So there is a time when that fetus (not child) is a person, therefore your argument holds no water. 90% of abortions occur in the trimester, it's not like women willy nilly decide to get one because they changed their minds.

I don't believe they miraculously become a person in the instant it is expelled from the womb. My guess is you do because that is the only way you can reconcile the two aspects of government involvement.

You don't like it when people make assumptions about you, yet you continuously do this.

1) Governement should protect people and 2)government shouldn't tell people(woman) what to do with their bodies. This becomes quite the paradox if abortion is okay to you. How can gov't protect life yet allow someone the choice to end an innocent one? Easy, give the thing inside the womb non-person status. Problem solved.

You just contradicted yourself as the government would have full jurisdiction over telling women what to do with their bodies if they become pregnant with you logic.

More importantly, you're giving a fetus who cannot survive without the mother a non-person status (which in itself doesn't make sense because it doesn't make the fetus a person...what does it make it?)

 

[Puddles]

I'm pro-choice but think that it should be left up to the States. My concerns with overturning Roe v. Wade is a federal ban on abortion and pulling highway funds on States that make it legal. If they can maintain State's rights and keep highway funding then I'd support overturning Roe v. Wade. But I don't think tax dollars should be wasted on abortions unless it's a medical emergency. No one should have to contribute to funding because some fucker didn't pull out in time.

And why do you believe it should be left up to the states?? Most of the morons who make up abortion laws will never become pregnant as they are rich, white men. Why should they have any say in what a woman chooses to do? Will they fully support the mother and the child? I doubt it. Therefore, a woman needs to have the OPTION to have accessible means to a safe, lawful abortion if she choses to do so...not ifs, ands or buts.

 

[Puddles]

My belief is not based on religion. I beleive in a higher power but don't subscribe to any specific group. My belief is based on common sense. Simply that there is no reason to think or believe that a baby is somehow less human the second before it comes out of the womb or the week or 2 months before or whatever. If a line could be drawn that said after 2 months, 3 days, 2 hrs and 7 minutes after conception this thing inside is human I would be all for drawing such a line. It would make this debate a hell of a lot easier. But we both know it probably isn't that simple. But for the abortion debate to work that thing inside has to be something other than human right up to the second before it comes out of the womb. Otherwise you are stuck in my previously mentioned paradox.

That's the problem there. There shouldn't have to be a debate...that's the biggest tragedy and injustice in this whole abortion discussion. IT'S NOBODY'S BUSINESS EXCEPT THE 2 PEOPLE WHO ARE INVOLVED. When will people understand this concept.

 

[Ninja]

That's what *you* believe.

Me? I believe there's a big difference between life and potential life and you don't have the right to impose your religious belief that a life exists at conception on me....

How about this...

When is one considered legally dead? When the brain ceases to function.

Therefore, I propose that life begins after conception and before birth - when the fetus develops a brain. I can't remember off of the top of my head but I believe this is something like 8 weeks after conception. That's more than enough time for a woman to decide whether or not she wants to keep the child.

Personally I think this is a reasonable compromise.

By the way, but that thing about "having to die using a coat hanger" was beyond gay

 

[Ninja]

That's the problem there. There shouldn't have to be a debate...that's the biggest tragedy and injustice in this whole abortion discussion. IT'S NOBODY'S BUSINESS EXCEPT THE 2 PEOPLE WHO ARE INVOLVED. When will people understand this concept.

Uh, depending on how far along the pregnancy is, there are 3 people involved. Not that you Infanticidocrats care.

 

[Ninja]

 

[jillian]

How about this...

When is one considered legally dead? When the brain ceases to function.

Therefore, I propose that life begins after conception and before birth - when the fetus develops a brain. I can't remember off of the top of my head but I believe this is something like 8 weeks after conception. That's more than enough time for a woman to decide whether or not she wants to keep the child.

Personally I think this is a reasonable compromise.

By the way, but that thing about "having to die using a coat hanger" was beyond gay

My comment about the coathanger was in response to Dirt's post. You are, of course, aware, though, that it did happen, right?

As for your proposed "compromise", look... we all know it exists on a continuum.... you want 8 weeks... that's *your* call. No less arbitrary than the end of the first trimester. Thing is, you can't even do an amniocentesis for something like 19 weeks after the commencement of a pregnancy, so no, I don't agree with your 8 weeks. (It may be less, btw, I don't remember)

But really, the same people who oppose choice, largely oppose the morning after pill, oppose sex education, want to teach abstinence only (and we know how well that works -- NOT!) and oppose giving girls a vaccination against HPV because they might run amok and become one of the girls in those Girls Gone Wild videos.

 

[Shattered]

That's the problem there. There shouldn't have to be a debate...that's the biggest tragedy and injustice in this whole abortion discussion. IT'S NOBODY'S BUSINESS EXCEPT THE 2 PEOPLE WHO ARE INVOLVED. When will people understand this concept.

What 2 people? The mother and the father? You indicated previously the father has no rights, as he's not the one carrying the child. That leaves it up to the "mother", and I use that term loosely.. She wasn't responsible enough in the first place to refrain from getting pregnant with a child she doesn't want, was she? So, why should she be able to make a choice about someone elses life simply because she was irresponsible? There comes a point at which it's time to grow the hell up, and take responsibility for your actions. Foisting your "mistake" off is not responsible. Murdering your "mistake" is not responsible.

If there's a legitimate reason to have an abortion (and I will admit there are a FEW - VERY few), then fine.. "I goofed", "Ooops", "I'm not ready", "We just got caught up in the moment", and the like are NOT acceptable reasons.

 

[jillian]

What 2 people? The mother and the father? You indicated previously the father has no rights, as he's not the one carrying the child. That leaves it up to the "mother", and I use that term loosely.. She wasn't responsible enough in the first place to refrain from getting pregnant with a child she doesn't want, was she? So, why should she be able to make a choice about someone elses life simply because she was irresponsible? There comes a point at which it's time to grow the hell up, and take responsibility for your actions. Foisting your "mistake" off is not responsible. Murdering your "mistake" is not responsible.

If there's a legitimate reason to have an abortion (and I will admit there are a FEW - VERY few), then fine.. "I goofed", "Ooops", "I'm not ready", "We just got caught up in the moment", and the like are NOT acceptable reasons.

The decision between the couple involved is a personal one. If their relationship is not good enough for them to consult on a course of action, much less agree, then it's the choice of the woman since it's her body and no woman should have to beg a judge for control over her own body. We make choices about life every day... Government isn't in the business of legislating the type of relationship people have to have.

Your placing the word "mistake" in quotemarks speaks volumes. This isn't about punishing women, at least it shouldn't be. Yet, so much of what I've seen from the anti-choice camp reeks of exactly that type of agenda. It isn't about forcing someone to take "responsibility". It's about you making the decision you think is right for *yourself* and me making the decision I think is right for *myself*. I won't force you to have an abortion, if you don't try to force me to carry a pregnancy to term that either I didn't want (and yes, stuff happens) or isn't right (like say the amnio says there is a child with a defect that I don't think it's fair for him/her to have to live with).

Your assessment on this issue is no better or worse than mine. Ultimately, it comes down to you not trying to impose your assessment on me.

 

[Dirt McGirt]

And why do you believe it should be left up to the states??

Because I don't believe abortions fall under the umbrella of your privacy and isn't a right guaranteed in the Constitution. Therefore, it should default to the States. But I'm kind of torn since there would be a federal ban on abortions without Roe v Wade and I wouldn't support overturning it unless States's rights are guaranteed and no punitive measures could be taken by Congress.

Most of the morons who make up abortion laws will never become pregnant as they are rich, white men. Why should they have any say in what a woman chooses to do? Will they fully support the mother and the child? I doubt it.

Rich white men aren't immune to DNA testing and paternity suits.

Therefore, a woman needs to have the OPTION to have accessible means to a safe, lawful abortion if she choses to do so...not ifs, ands or buts.

I agree- if it's a woman. If it's an underage teenage girl, it should be up to the States to decide the standards for informed consent (as it is now.)

 

[Shattered]

The decision between the couple involved is a personal one. If their relationship is not good enough for them to consult on a course of action, much less agree, then it's the choice of the woman since it's her body and no woman should have to beg a judge for control over her own body. We make choices about life every day... Government isn't in the business of legislating the type of relationship people have to have.

Your placing the word "mistake" in quotemarks speaks volumes. This isn't about punishing women, at least it shouldn't be. Yet, so much of what I've seen from the anti-choice camp reeks of exactly that type of agenda. It isn't about forcing someone to take "responsibility". It's about you making the decision you think is right for *yourself* and me making the decision I think is right for *myself*. I won't force you to have an abortion, if you don't try to force me to carry a pregnancy to term that either I didn't want (and yes, stuff happens) or isn't right (like say the amnio says there is a child with a defect that I don't think it's fair for him/her to have to live with).

Your assessment on this issue is no better or worse than mine. Ultimately, it comes down to you not trying to impose your assessment on me.

I hate to break it to you, Cookie, but if their relationship isn't such that they can "agree on a course of action", then they had no business sleeping together in the *first* place.

Also, if you're going to make a decision thats "right for you", shouldn't that decision be made *prior* to having unprotected sex? Or, is it your way to just go along with what feels good now, and damn the consequences, because you can just kill that particular consequence off later?

 

[Puddles]

What 2 people? The mother and the father? You indicated previously the father has no rights, as he's not the one carrying the child. That leaves it up to the "mother", and I use that term loosely.. She wasn't responsible enough in the first place to refrain from getting pregnant with a child she doesn't want, was she? So, why should she be able to make a choice about someone elses life simply because she was irresponsible? There comes a point at which it's time to grow the hell up, and take responsibility for your actions. Foisting your "mistake" off is not responsible. Murdering your "mistake" is not responsible.

If there's a legitimate reason to have an abortion (and I will admit there are a FEW - VERY few), then fine.. "I goofed", "Ooops", "I'm not ready", "We just got caught up in the moment", and the like are NOT acceptable reasons.

I hate to break it to you, Cookie, but if their relationship isn't such that they can "agree on a course of action", then they had no business sleeping together in the *first* place.

Also, if you're going to make a decision thats "right for you", shouldn't that decision be made *prior* to having unprotected sex? Or, is it your way to just go along with what feels good now, and damn the consequences, because you can just kill that particular consequence off later?

Well Jillian pretty much summed up what I would've said (but did a much better job). Shattered, all I can say is wow you are extremely judgmental and narrow minded. I'm not sure what you think you've done to earn the right to judge others.

I don't know what part of BIRTH CONTROL ISN'T GUARANTEED TO WORK ALL THE TIME, that you don't understand. There's disclaimers on condom box, birth control packaging. The way you're talking is that abortion in most cases occurs when slutty women have goofed and now are using abortion as post birth control. You have nothing to back up the that claim. As a women I thought you would have more respect, understanding and common sense about such issues but apparently not.

There's many reason why a woman would choose to have an abortion, most likely it's the last resort...not all but most.

What is interesting that all you "pro-lifers" never ever address what were to happen AFTER a woman decides to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term. I bet none of you even know about how adoption option works or what it entails. So easy for all you to judge others in the comfort of you living room without ever having been in the situation.

Another thing that you so called pro-lifers choose to see is that people who are pro-choice are also pro-abortion - as if we encourage and and promote it. I think it's safe to say that any pro-choicer advocates women have the CHOICE to make whatever decision that is in HER (yes her) best interest as she is the one who will have to give birth and most likely raise the child. She knows the best if she is capable of looking after a child - NO MATTER HOW OR WHY SHE GOT PREGNANT BECAUSE IT'S NONE OF OUR BUSINESS HOW OR WHY IT HAPPENED. Stop sticking your nose in other people's business!!!

You cannot argue a fertilize sperm and egg has the same rights as a human being because YOU consider it to be one, especially when there is no consensus and even 'professionals' (doctors, scientist) can't agree. THAT'S YOUR BELIEF, not everyone else's. All you're doing is forcing your OPINION on others...how democratic is that? As I have stated several times, 90% of abortion occur in the 3rd trimester - all you're doing is using very rare cases of abortion to make your argument.

 

[Shattered]

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/birth-control-pregnancy/abortion/choosing-abortion.htm

The chances are high that a woman will have more than one unplanned pregnancy in the course of her lifetime. More than one-third of all U.S. women will have an abortion by the time they are 45 years old. About six million women in the U.S. become pregnant every year. Half of those pregnancies are unintended. Nearly 1.3 million women choose abortion to end their pregnancy each year.

The most common reasons a woman chooses abortion are

* She is not ready to become a parent.
* She cannot afford a baby.
* She doesn't want to be a single parent.
* She doesn't want anyone to know she has had sex or is pregnant.
* She is too young or too immature to have a child.
* She has all the children she wants.
* Her husband, partner, or parent wants her to have an abortion.
* She or the fetus has a health problem.
* She was a survivor of rape or incest.

Of the most common reasons given, only the last two are acceptable, and the first of the two is only acceptable in extreme circumstances.

 

[Shattered]

Incidently, no birth control isn't *guaranteed* to work - one of my nephews is living proof of that.. My SIL was a whopping 25 years old, had no idea what she was going to do with her life, and wasn't even working at the time - had just lost her job, but was living with her boyfriend..

Her first thought wasn't "Oh my God! This can't be happening to me! Gotta get rid of it! I can't do this! I'm not ready!"

She kept that child. In the last 2 years, she's become a MUCH better person for it; she's a good mother, she's become a responsible person, now has a good job, and is more willing to take on responsibility in life, because she has someone to think of besides herself.

It's amazing what growing up and making the right decision will do.

 

[Puddles]

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/birth-control-pregnancy/abortion/choosing-abortion.htm

The chances are high that a woman will have more than one unplanned pregnancy in the course of her lifetime. More than one-third of all U.S. women will have an abortion by the time they are 45 years old. About six million women in the U.S. become pregnant every year. Half of those pregnancies are unintended. Nearly 1.3 million women choose abortion to end their pregnancy each year.

Not sure what point you're trying to prove here.

The most common reasons a woman chooses abortion are

* She is not ready to become a parent.
* She cannot afford a baby.
* She doesn't want to be a single parent.
* She doesn't want anyone to know she has had sex or is pregnant.
* She is too young or too immature to have a child.
* She has all the children she wants.
* Her husband, partner, or parent wants her to have an abortion.
* She or the fetus has a health problem.
* She was a survivor of rape or incest.

Of the most common reasons given, only the last two are acceptable, and the first of the two is only acceptable in extreme circumstances.

Again, it doesn't really matter what you think is acceptable. You are not judge and jury.

Here's some interesting information I found from the same website:

In the U.S., induced abortion was common among Native Americans, and it was legal from colonial times to the middle of the 19th century. But unclean, primitive medical practices made it very dangerous. To protect women’s lives, laws against abortion began to be passed during the mid-1800s. But by the middle of the 20th century, cleaner, more advanced medical procedures made safe abortion possible. All U.S. laws against abortion were overturned in 1973 by the landmark U.S. Supreme Court decision in Roe v. Wade. Today, abortion is legal nationwide and is one of the safest of all available medical procedures.

So apparently abortion laws originally passed to protect women, nothing about saving the life of the baby...it was to save the life of the woman. Funny how things change


Also according to the website you provided:

It [abortion] occurs naturally in 15–40 percent of all established pregnancies — when an embryo or fetus stops developing and the body expels it. This is called spontaneous abortion, miscarriage, or early pregnancy loss. Women choose abortion in less than 25 percent of the 6,000,000 pregnancies that are diagnosed in the U.S. every year — 50 percent of which are unintended. This is called induced abortion.

Incidently, no birth control isn't *guaranteed* to work - one of my nephews is living proof of that.. My SIL was a whopping 25 years old, had no idea what she was going to do with her life, and wasn't even working at the time - had just lost her job, but was living with her boyfriend..

Her first thought wasn't "Oh my God! This can't be happening to me! Gotta get rid of it! I can't do this! I'm not ready!"

She kept that child. In the last 2 years, she's become a MUCH better person for it; she's a good mother, she's become a responsible person, now has a good job, and is more willing to take on responsibility in life, because she has someone to think of besides herself.

It's amazing what growing up and making the right decision will do.

Yeah so? That's one case. You think that can and will be applied to all? That's very narrow minded thinking. What's right for one person, isn't right for another...you can't force things on people!

BTW, will you address my other arguments?

 

[Shattered]

Not sure what point you're trying to prove here.




Again, it doesn't really matter what you think is acceptable. You are not judge and jury.

Here's some interesting information I found from the same website:



So apparently abortion laws originally passed to protect women, nothing about saving the life of the baby...it was to save the life of the woman. Funny how things change


Also according to the website you provided:




Yeah so? That's one case. You think that can and will be applied to all? That's very narrow minded thinking. What's right for one person, isn't right for another...you can't force things on people!

BTW, will you address my other arguments?

Your other arguments are nothing but selfish BS, and a poor attempt at making excuses for irresponsibility, thus making it more "ok" than it really should be. Just because you lacked the proper upbringing, and morals, doesn't mean the rest of the world did. Acceptable reasons for abortion are the two I pointed out earlier. Anything else is sheer stupidity, and refusal to deal with the consequences of one's own actions.

 

[Puddles]

Your other arguments are nothing but selfish BS, and a poor attempt at making excuses for irresponsibility, thus making it more "ok" than it really should be. Just because you lacked the proper upbringing, and morals, doesn't mean the rest of the world did. Acceptable reasons for abortion are the two I pointed out earlier. Anything else is sheer stupidity, and refusal to deal with the consequences of one's own actions.

Who are you say I have poor upbringing and morals? Just because you don't agree me, how disgusting but it says soooooooo much about you and your character.

Just the mere fact that you have no respect for others and are extremely arrogant, ignorant, close-minded and judgmental shows me kind of person you really are. It's people like you that have caused more problems than good.

It's a joke that you think you're anywhere close to be selfless, you're the epitome of selfishness.

Also your unwillingness to actually debate points shows your lack of intelligence and maturity...instead your resort to character attacks...that's what people do when they have no rebuttal. Before you say it, I didn't attack your character, I stated facts that YOU have provided.