Georgia Cop learns I was afeared for my life doesn’t work anymore.

[SavannahMann]

There are few more conservative states than Georgia. Georgia joined several other states in an effort to ban abortion for one example of this Conservative Trend. Yet, even in Conservative Georgia, the words “I was afeared for my life” no longer provide the impenetrable shield against consequences for Police.

Former Georgia police officer Robert Olsen is sentenced to 12 years in prison in shooting death | Daily Mail Online

In this case, the officer shot a naked man who was running around. The man, with a history of mental issues reportedly associated with his time in the Air Force, was literally naked. So the argument that he might have had a concealed weapon was just not going to fly.

Twelve years in Prison, eight years of Probation. Georgia Prisons are awful. I watched a documentary where the issue of prisoner on prisoner violence was discussed. The guards were universal in their comments. They said the guards were there to insure nobody left, in other words escaped. Whatever happened inside was irrelevant, so long as nobody escaped.

I thought then and still believe that this was a idiotic sentiment. When you take custody of anything, you are responsible for it. If you accept a package for a neighbor, and your child smashes it with a baseball bat, you have to make amends. You had custody, and thus responsibility.

That aside, I think the important part of this issue, is how even in Georgia, the cops are being held responsible for things that they would have gotten away with just a few years ago.

No doom and gloom scenarios have appeared. The cops are still out on the street doing their thing. I still see cops out writing tickets, and no reports of cops refusing to show up and deal with crime. So the anarchy predictions of the insane right are not coming true. I say insane right, because even in Georgia, Conservative Georgia, where I am a Liberal by local standards, the police are being held to account for their actions.

Of course, by the local standards of San Francisco, or New York City, I am a raging conservative gun nut.

Now, the question is when will the Department’s and the Academy’s change to reflect this reality? I am betting more cops get prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced to Prison before the departments adjust their training and policies to admit the truth. If this continues much longer, I wonder if we will see Prison Reform as one of the platforms the Police Unions are suddenly behind? I personally would welcome that change.

 

[beagle9]

There are few more conservative states than Georgia. Georgia joined several other states in an effort to ban abortion for one example of this Conservative Trend. Yet, even in Conservative Georgia, the words “I was afeared for my life” no longer provide the impenetrable shield against consequences for Police.

Former Georgia police officer Robert Olsen is sentenced to 12 years in prison in shooting death | Daily Mail Online

In this case, the officer shot a naked man who was running around. The man, with a history of mental issues reportedly associated with his time in the Air Force, was literally naked. So the argument that he might have had a concealed weapon was just not going to fly.

Twelve years in Prison, eight years of Probation. Georgia Prisons are awful. I watched a documentary where the issue of prisoner on prisoner violence was discussed. The guards were universal in their comments. They said the guards were there to insure nobody left, in other words escaped. Whatever happened inside was irrelevant, so long as nobody escaped.

I thought then and still believe that this was a idiotic sentiment. When you take custody of anything, you are responsible for it. If you accept a package for a neighbor, and your child smashes it with a baseball bat, you have to make amends. You had custody, and thus responsibility.

That aside, I think the important part of this issue, is how even in Georgia, the cops are being held responsible for things that they would have gotten away with just a few years ago.

No doom and gloom scenarios have appeared. The cops are still out on the street doing their thing. I still see cops out writing tickets, and no reports of cops refusing to show up and deal with crime. So the anarchy predictions of the insane right are not coming true. I say insane right, because even in Georgia, Conservative Georgia, where I am a Liberal by local standards, the police are being held to account for their actions.

Of course, by the local standards of San Francisco, or New York City, I am a raging conservative gun nut.

Now, the question is when will the Department’s and the Academy’s change to reflect this reality? I am betting more cops get prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced to Prison before the departments adjust their training and policies to admit the truth. If this continues much longer, I wonder if we will see Prison Reform as one of the platforms the Police Unions are suddenly behind? I personally would welcome that change.

Ok, let each case stand on it's own merits instead of politically charging them up for political purposes then. Find a solution for that, and you will have gotten somewhere in this. I think that for the most part justice has been served, but due to baiting, set ups, bad judges, activism, politicalization of the cases, bias, favoritism etc, then we get a messed up system that needs to be non-politically charged, and cleaned up. Due to politics, and the usery in it all, it's hard to imagine the system getting better before it gets way worse.

 

[SavannahMann]

There are few more conservative states than Georgia. Georgia joined several other states in an effort to ban abortion for one example of this Conservative Trend. Yet, even in Conservative Georgia, the words “I was afeared for my life” no longer provide the impenetrable shield against consequences for Police.

Former Georgia police officer Robert Olsen is sentenced to 12 years in prison in shooting death | Daily Mail Online

In this case, the officer shot a naked man who was running around. The man, with a history of mental issues reportedly associated with his time in the Air Force, was literally naked. So the argument that he might have had a concealed weapon was just not going to fly.

Twelve years in Prison, eight years of Probation. Georgia Prisons are awful. I watched a documentary where the issue of prisoner on prisoner violence was discussed. The guards were universal in their comments. They said the guards were there to insure nobody left, in other words escaped. Whatever happened inside was irrelevant, so long as nobody escaped.

I thought then and still believe that this was a idiotic sentiment. When you take custody of anything, you are responsible for it. If you accept a package for a neighbor, and your child smashes it with a baseball bat, you have to make amends. You had custody, and thus responsibility.

That aside, I think the important part of this issue, is how even in Georgia, the cops are being held responsible for things that they would have gotten away with just a few years ago.

No doom and gloom scenarios have appeared. The cops are still out on the street doing their thing. I still see cops out writing tickets, and no reports of cops refusing to show up and deal with crime. So the anarchy predictions of the insane right are not coming true. I say insane right, because even in Georgia, Conservative Georgia, where I am a Liberal by local standards, the police are being held to account for their actions.

Of course, by the local standards of San Francisco, or New York City, I am a raging conservative gun nut.

Now, the question is when will the Department’s and the Academy’s change to reflect this reality? I am betting more cops get prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced to Prison before the departments adjust their training and policies to admit the truth. If this continues much longer, I wonder if we will see Prison Reform as one of the platforms the Police Unions are suddenly behind? I personally would welcome that change.

Ok, let each case stand on it's own merits instead of politically charging them up for political purposes then. Find a solution for that, and you will have gotten somewhere in this. I think that for the most part justice has been served, but due to baiting, set ups, bad judges, activism, politicalization of the cases, bias, favoritism etc, then we get a messed up system that needs to be non-politically charged, and cleaned up. Due to politics, and the usery in it all, it's hard to imagine the system getting better before it gets way worse.

Unfortunately, change without the political element is nearly impossible. Let’s be honest for a moment. I have commented before about how we got here. It was a series of well intentioned exceptions to the standards of the era. Each exception became the foundation for the next exception. It did not take long for the exception, the exceptional circumstances to become routine.

Getting away from the “use of force” questions. Let’s take another “exceptional” question. The use of tracking of cell phones. I remember the sequence, and I will explain it for you and other readers. It stemmed from a series of court decisions. It became a legal principle that if you provided information to a third party willingly, then you had no reasonable expectation of privacy. That meant that the Police, and Federal Agents, did not need a warrant to get the information. Congress immediately jumped on this bandwagon, and passed laws requiring you to provide far more information, voluntarily of course, to accomplish anything. Your bank account now needed a copy of your drivers license, employment, and a lot of other information. All so you could deposit your paycheck and pay your bills.

The Cell Phones did not have any way to locate you. No GPS chip at the time. But Congress and the various Police Forces drooled with the prospect. Congress passed the E-911 law requiring that Cell Phone makers, and companies, put some sort of position location system in the cellphones so that when you dialed 911 the emergency operator would know where you were. That way if you couldn’t talk, you could still get help in an emergency. It took the various Agencies about ten minutes to use this to track people who were in no sort of emergency.

You were providing this information voluntarily of course, you didn’t have a choice. So the cops were really upset when the Court ruled that they needed a warrant for it. That just wasn’t fair.

One exception, the idea that information provided to a bank was not subject to the same requirements of a warrant as anything else, and look what happened. Each exception becomes the foundation for the next. It is how we got into the mess we are in. Whenever anyone does question it, the Police make it political. They rush out and inform the masses that the Cops need this ability to stop Terrorism, Drug Dealers, or (This is their favorite) Child Molesters. Anyone who opposes this wants your children to be victims of child molesters you see.

We gave the FBI the ability to use National Security Letters, for the Ticking Time Bomb scenario, where waiting for a warrant could well prevent the Feds from stopping a Terrorist Attack. It has been used more than five hundred thousand times, that they admit. About a dozen for actual Terrorism Investigations. The rest of the time it was for other investigations where the Feds didn’t want to wait for enough evidence for a warrant. When questioned about it the FBI whipped out Child Porn and Molesters as a justification for this obviously unconstitutional practice.

Without Political Pressure, changing this practice is just impossible. It just won’t happen. Obviously with half a million uses, that is what the FBI has admitted, raise your hands if you think they told us the whole truth, it is used pretty much every day for anything beyond parking violations. Think about it. Every investigation the FBI has ongoing, probably has at least one, probably more of those National Security Letters.

Our Constitution guarantees you the right to an attorney, but the NSL denies that to you. You are prohibited from discussing it with a lawyer. You have the right to peaceably assemble and redress the Government for wrongs. But not about the NSL’s, since they come with a gag order that lays out significant penalties, including prison, for talking about them. If you were served with a Search Warrant you could discuss it with your lawyer. If you were served with a Subpoena, both reviewed by Judges before being served to insure that they meet the standards of the Constitution, you could talk about it with your Lawyer, or the press, or your neighbors.

We placed an exception out there for use in exceptional circumstances, and they immediately become routine and common. The same came from the use of Force. The exceptions like the tragic story of a cop who shoots a kid with a toy gun in a poorly lit apartment complex being justified since he could not know it was a kid, with a toy. Those exceptions became the world we live in today, where the threat used to justify the use of deadly force is whatever the fevered imagination of the cop can conjure up.

Show me something that hasn’t been changed with political pressure, or action. Civil Rights? Second Amendment Rights? Both have been strengthened by Political Pressure and activism. I presume you do not object to demands to your elected officials to defend the Second Amendment.

 

[beagle9]

There are few more conservative states than Georgia. Georgia joined several other states in an effort to ban abortion for one example of this Conservative Trend. Yet, even in Conservative Georgia, the words “I was afeared for my life” no longer provide the impenetrable shield against consequences for Police.

Former Georgia police officer Robert Olsen is sentenced to 12 years in prison in shooting death | Daily Mail Online

In this case, the officer shot a naked man who was running around. The man, with a history of mental issues reportedly associated with his time in the Air Force, was literally naked. So the argument that he might have had a concealed weapon was just not going to fly.

Twelve years in Prison, eight years of Probation. Georgia Prisons are awful. I watched a documentary where the issue of prisoner on prisoner violence was discussed. The guards were universal in their comments. They said the guards were there to insure nobody left, in other words escaped. Whatever happened inside was irrelevant, so long as nobody escaped.

I thought then and still believe that this was a idiotic sentiment. When you take custody of anything, you are responsible for it. If you accept a package for a neighbor, and your child smashes it with a baseball bat, you have to make amends. You had custody, and thus responsibility.

That aside, I think the important part of this issue, is how even in Georgia, the cops are being held responsible for things that they would have gotten away with just a few years ago.

No doom and gloom scenarios have appeared. The cops are still out on the street doing their thing. I still see cops out writing tickets, and no reports of cops refusing to show up and deal with crime. So the anarchy predictions of the insane right are not coming true. I say insane right, because even in Georgia, Conservative Georgia, where I am a Liberal by local standards, the police are being held to account for their actions.

Of course, by the local standards of San Francisco, or New York City, I am a raging conservative gun nut.

Now, the question is when will the Department’s and the Academy’s change to reflect this reality? I am betting more cops get prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced to Prison before the departments adjust their training and policies to admit the truth. If this continues much longer, I wonder if we will see Prison Reform as one of the platforms the Police Unions are suddenly behind? I personally would welcome that change.

Ok, let each case stand on it's own merits instead of politically charging them up for political purposes then. Find a solution for that, and you will have gotten somewhere in this. I think that for the most part justice has been served, but due to baiting, set ups, bad judges, activism, politicalization of the cases, bias, favoritism etc, then we get a messed up system that needs to be non-politically charged, and cleaned up. Due to politics, and the usery in it all, it's hard to imagine the system getting better before it gets way worse.

Unfortunately, change without the political element is nearly impossible. Let’s be honest for a moment. I have commented before about how we got here. It was a series of well intentioned exceptions to the standards of the era. Each exception became the foundation for the next exception. It did not take long for the exception, the exceptional circumstances to become routine.

Getting away from the “use of force” questions. Let’s take another “exceptional” question. The use of tracking of cell phones. I remember the sequence, and I will explain it for you and other readers. It stemmed from a series of court decisions. It became a legal principle that if you provided information to a third party willingly, then you had no reasonable expectation of privacy. That meant that the Police, and Federal Agents, did not need a warrant to get the information. Congress immediately jumped on this bandwagon, and passed laws requiring you to provide far more information, voluntarily of course, to accomplish anything. Your bank account now needed a copy of your drivers license, employment, and a lot of other information. All so you could deposit your paycheck and pay your bills.

The Cell Phones did not have any way to locate you. No GPS chip at the time. But Congress and the various Police Forces drooled with the prospect. Congress passed the E-911 law requiring that Cell Phone makers, and companies, put some sort of position location system in the cellphones so that when you dialed 911 the emergency operator would know where you were. That way if you couldn’t talk, you could still get help in an emergency. It took the various Agencies about ten minutes to use this to track people who were in no sort of emergency.

You were providing this information voluntarily of course, you didn’t have a choice. So the cops were really upset when the Court ruled that they needed a warrant for it. That just wasn’t fair.

One exception, the idea that information provided to a bank was not subject to the same requirements of a warrant as anything else, and look what happened. Each exception becomes the foundation for the next. It is how we got into the mess we are in. Whenever anyone does question it, the Police make it political. They rush out and inform the masses that the Cops need this ability to stop Terrorism, Drug Dealers, or (This is their favorite) Child Molesters. Anyone who opposes this wants your children to be victims of child molesters you see.

We gave the FBI the ability to use National Security Letters, for the Ticking Time Bomb scenario, where waiting for a warrant could well prevent the Feds from stopping a Terrorist Attack. It has been used more than five hundred thousand times, that they admit. About a dozen for actual Terrorism Investigations. The rest of the time it was for other investigations where the Feds didn’t want to wait for enough evidence for a warrant. When questioned about it the FBI whipped out Child Porn and Molesters as a justification for this obviously unconstitutional practice.

Without Political Pressure, changing this practice is just impossible. It just won’t happen. Obviously with half a million uses, that is what the FBI has admitted, raise your hands if you think they told us the whole truth, it is used pretty much every day for anything beyond parking violations. Think about it. Every investigation the FBI has ongoing, probably has at least one, probably more of those National Security Letters.

Our Constitution guarantees you the right to an attorney, but the NSL denies that to you. You are prohibited from discussing it with a lawyer. You have the right to peaceably assemble and redress the Government for wrongs. But not about the NSL’s, since they come with a gag order that lays out significant penalties, including prison, for talking about them. If you were served with a Search Warrant you could discuss it with your lawyer. If you were served with a Subpoena, both reviewed by Judges before being served to insure that they meet the standards of the Constitution, you could talk about it with your Lawyer, or the press, or your neighbors.

We placed an exception out there for use in exceptional circumstances, and they immediately become routine and common. The same came from the use of Force. The exceptions like the tragic story of a cop who shoots a kid with a toy gun in a poorly lit apartment complex being justified since he could not know it was a kid, with a toy. Those exceptions became the world we live in today, where the threat used to justify the use of deadly force is whatever the fevered imagination of the cop can conjure up.

Show me something that hasn’t been changed with political pressure, or action. Civil Rights? Second Amendment Rights? Both have been strengthened by Political Pressure and activism. I presume you do not object to demands to your elected officials to defend the Second Amendment.

Good read, and nope I don't object to the demands of the elected officials to protect our second amendment. Now tell me who exactly has caused all that we are seeing these days, otherwise when looking back on it all now ?? Think about it, and get to the very foundation of it all in order to know when it all started moving forward in this country. The rich weren't the culprits nor were the poor. It has nothing to do with money, but instead to do with a mindset, and next a cultural movement built around that mindset. So after all the evidence of it, was that movement correct or completely wrong headed when it embarked upon the long journey it had embarked upon, and yet without fortifying itself against the highjacking of the movement throughout time as we have seen now ??

 

[SavannahMann]

There are few more conservative states than Georgia. Georgia joined several other states in an effort to ban abortion for one example of this Conservative Trend. Yet, even in Conservative Georgia, the words “I was afeared for my life” no longer provide the impenetrable shield against consequences for Police.

Former Georgia police officer Robert Olsen is sentenced to 12 years in prison in shooting death | Daily Mail Online

In this case, the officer shot a naked man who was running around. The man, with a history of mental issues reportedly associated with his time in the Air Force, was literally naked. So the argument that he might have had a concealed weapon was just not going to fly.

Twelve years in Prison, eight years of Probation. Georgia Prisons are awful. I watched a documentary where the issue of prisoner on prisoner violence was discussed. The guards were universal in their comments. They said the guards were there to insure nobody left, in other words escaped. Whatever happened inside was irrelevant, so long as nobody escaped.

I thought then and still believe that this was a idiotic sentiment. When you take custody of anything, you are responsible for it. If you accept a package for a neighbor, and your child smashes it with a baseball bat, you have to make amends. You had custody, and thus responsibility.

That aside, I think the important part of this issue, is how even in Georgia, the cops are being held responsible for things that they would have gotten away with just a few years ago.

No doom and gloom scenarios have appeared. The cops are still out on the street doing their thing. I still see cops out writing tickets, and no reports of cops refusing to show up and deal with crime. So the anarchy predictions of the insane right are not coming true. I say insane right, because even in Georgia, Conservative Georgia, where I am a Liberal by local standards, the police are being held to account for their actions.

Of course, by the local standards of San Francisco, or New York City, I am a raging conservative gun nut.

Now, the question is when will the Department’s and the Academy’s change to reflect this reality? I am betting more cops get prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced to Prison before the departments adjust their training and policies to admit the truth. If this continues much longer, I wonder if we will see Prison Reform as one of the platforms the Police Unions are suddenly behind? I personally would welcome that change.

Ok, let each case stand on it's own merits instead of politically charging them up for political purposes then. Find a solution for that, and you will have gotten somewhere in this. I think that for the most part justice has been served, but due to baiting, set ups, bad judges, activism, politicalization of the cases, bias, favoritism etc, then we get a messed up system that needs to be non-politically charged, and cleaned up. Due to politics, and the usery in it all, it's hard to imagine the system getting better before it gets way worse.

Unfortunately, change without the political element is nearly impossible. Let’s be honest for a moment. I have commented before about how we got here. It was a series of well intentioned exceptions to the standards of the era. Each exception became the foundation for the next exception. It did not take long for the exception, the exceptional circumstances to become routine.

Getting away from the “use of force” questions. Let’s take another “exceptional” question. The use of tracking of cell phones. I remember the sequence, and I will explain it for you and other readers. It stemmed from a series of court decisions. It became a legal principle that if you provided information to a third party willingly, then you had no reasonable expectation of privacy. That meant that the Police, and Federal Agents, did not need a warrant to get the information. Congress immediately jumped on this bandwagon, and passed laws requiring you to provide far more information, voluntarily of course, to accomplish anything. Your bank account now needed a copy of your drivers license, employment, and a lot of other information. All so you could deposit your paycheck and pay your bills.

The Cell Phones did not have any way to locate you. No GPS chip at the time. But Congress and the various Police Forces drooled with the prospect. Congress passed the E-911 law requiring that Cell Phone makers, and companies, put some sort of position location system in the cellphones so that when you dialed 911 the emergency operator would know where you were. That way if you couldn’t talk, you could still get help in an emergency. It took the various Agencies about ten minutes to use this to track people who were in no sort of emergency.

You were providing this information voluntarily of course, you didn’t have a choice. So the cops were really upset when the Court ruled that they needed a warrant for it. That just wasn’t fair.

One exception, the idea that information provided to a bank was not subject to the same requirements of a warrant as anything else, and look what happened. Each exception becomes the foundation for the next. It is how we got into the mess we are in. Whenever anyone does question it, the Police make it political. They rush out and inform the masses that the Cops need this ability to stop Terrorism, Drug Dealers, or (This is their favorite) Child Molesters. Anyone who opposes this wants your children to be victims of child molesters you see.

We gave the FBI the ability to use National Security Letters, for the Ticking Time Bomb scenario, where waiting for a warrant could well prevent the Feds from stopping a Terrorist Attack. It has been used more than five hundred thousand times, that they admit. About a dozen for actual Terrorism Investigations. The rest of the time it was for other investigations where the Feds didn’t want to wait for enough evidence for a warrant. When questioned about it the FBI whipped out Child Porn and Molesters as a justification for this obviously unconstitutional practice.

Without Political Pressure, changing this practice is just impossible. It just won’t happen. Obviously with half a million uses, that is what the FBI has admitted, raise your hands if you think they told us the whole truth, it is used pretty much every day for anything beyond parking violations. Think about it. Every investigation the FBI has ongoing, probably has at least one, probably more of those National Security Letters.

Our Constitution guarantees you the right to an attorney, but the NSL denies that to you. You are prohibited from discussing it with a lawyer. You have the right to peaceably assemble and redress the Government for wrongs. But not about the NSL’s, since they come with a gag order that lays out significant penalties, including prison, for talking about them. If you were served with a Search Warrant you could discuss it with your lawyer. If you were served with a Subpoena, both reviewed by Judges before being served to insure that they meet the standards of the Constitution, you could talk about it with your Lawyer, or the press, or your neighbors.

We placed an exception out there for use in exceptional circumstances, and they immediately become routine and common. The same came from the use of Force. The exceptions like the tragic story of a cop who shoots a kid with a toy gun in a poorly lit apartment complex being justified since he could not know it was a kid, with a toy. Those exceptions became the world we live in today, where the threat used to justify the use of deadly force is whatever the fevered imagination of the cop can conjure up.

Show me something that hasn’t been changed with political pressure, or action. Civil Rights? Second Amendment Rights? Both have been strengthened by Political Pressure and activism. I presume you do not object to demands to your elected officials to defend the Second Amendment.

Good read, and nope I don't object to the demands of the elected officials to protect our second amendment. Now tell me who exactly has caused all that we are seeing these days, otherwise when looking back on it all now ?? Think about it, and get to the very foundation of it all in order to know when it all started moving forward in this country. The rich weren't the culprits nor were the poor. It has nothing to do with money, but instead to do with a mindset, and next a cultural movement built around that mindset. So after all the evidence of it, was that movement correct or completely wrong headed when it embarked upon the long journey it had embarked upon, and yet without fortifying itself against the highjacking of the movement throughout time as we have seen now ??

Honestly, it wasn’t a cultural movement, nor a social movement. It was an effort to be reasonable, by the population mostly. It was also a series of wrong lessons learned after shootouts. Let me back up and explain how we got here regarding use of force. I remember it, I am that old.

In the 1960’s and 70’s the standard for police shootings was armed baddie. The bad guy had to have a weapon. Now, in some cases police would have a drop piece, a gun they dropped on the bad guy to make sure that a gun was found. But the standards of training for the police were that the bad guy had to be armed. It was the era of “Saturday Night Special’s” for bad guys. Cheap guns that were not accurate beyond a couple feet. Small and easily concealable.

This scene from the movie Magnum Force was a good example of the combat shooting training of the era. In most departments with this kind of training, it was called Hoogan’s Alley. There was even a video game that was the same sort of thing. You only shot the baddie if he was armed. The same sort of training was the standard as we entered the 1980’s. While I was in High School.



A similar training scene was part of the opening of Point Break, the original, not the disaster of a remake. But it was the way you trained for that horrible day when you had to shoot to save your life. We started to get away from that. Wrong lessons, and reasonable exceptions combined to get us HERE.

A cop walking through an apartment complex at night, sees a shadowy figure with a gun and pulls his pistol and fires. It turns out to be a gun. That was the story of the cop on the street during the movie Die Hard if you remember. It looked real enough, and we were reasonable. It looked like a gun. It was a toy, but it looked real. No way for the cop to know. We were reasonable, because it wasn’t a violation of the standards we had grown up with, the baddie appeared to be armed, even if he wasn’t.

Then there was the wrong lessons learned. The worst example of this is the 1986 Miami FBI shootout.



The Feds were well within engagement range, and fired their revolvers dry. As the video just above explains, if you want to watch it all, courage was not in short supply, but what was completely missing was basic marksmanship. The Feds fired, and fired, and fired some more, and just did not hit the baddies. Two of the agents had 9MM pistols, and between them both emptying their magazines, they had one hit between them, no telling who hit the baddie. The hit was a through and through on the arm.

SWAT teams were starting up, and were intended for the most extreme of situations. The nightmare scenario of Terrorism, or a bank robbery turned hostage situation. They were expensive as hell to equip, and train. It became a case of we paid for it, we have it, why not use it? And SWAT teams became routine in the serving of Drug Warrants, and then Major Felony Warrants, and then pretty much any Warrant they had. The Exceptional Circumstance imagined when the SWAT Team was proposed and approved, became routine over the next couple decades. It wasn’t immediate, it never is.

Back to the Miami Shootout. The Cops learned the wrong lesson. Instead of focusing on marksmanship they revamped the entire use of force argument. The cops switched from .38 Special and .357 Magnums to 9MM. In a few years, the famous Norco shootout happened and the cops felt that 9MM wasn’t good enough and the .40 Smith and Wesson was developed.

In each case, the problem identified was always the equipment, the policies, or the time of the delay to shoot. The cops needed bigger guns, 15 or 17 rounds of 9MM instead of six of .38 Special. They needed more practice with the speed draw and fire.

The toy gun exception became something in the hand that could be mistaken for a gun. A wallet, or something small that could look like a gun, if you squinted your eyes just so. Again a reasonable exception, that became routine.

Then it was the movement, like the guy was going to draw, and the cop had to fire, he couldn’t take the chance.

Again, I have been alive, and have been blessed or cursed with a slightly better than average memory, I remember all of these events and exceptions.

I was in the Army when the Norco shooting happened. Again, the cops were anything but bereft of courage. They were stupidly courageous. Guts was not in short supply. Even when it was apparent that the baddies were wearing body armor, the cops kept shooting into the vests of the baddies. Again the problem was marksmanship. Instead of the heads, they kept shooting center of mass. Most of the bullets fired missed the baddies, but those that hit, hit center mass.

But that story has been repeated time, and time, and time again. Changes from shootouts, where the biggest problem is marksmanship, which is almost never addressed. The cops just don’t hit the baddies. Ron White the comedian, has even made fun of it. It has become that prevalent.

It doesn’t matter what kind of gun you have. It doesn’t matter if that weapon would drop a Water Buffalo, if the bullet doesn’t hit the baddie.

I have a truism that I always find to be true. It is never one thing. It wasn’t just the loosened exceptions to when the cops could shoot and be “justified”. It was the way the cops shot, and the way they were trained.

Remember that Dirty Harry scene from above? The Hoogan’s alley training? This is what it has become today.



Now it is draw and fire fast enough. They are trying to make everyone the mirror image of the last of the gunfighters. The old school gunfighters the FBI recruited in the Depression to help bring in the real baddies of the era. People like D. A. Bryce. Delf A. 'Jelly' Bryce was possibly the fastest gunfighter ever

Bryce is one I heard about first in the early 1990’s. He was exceptional. Not only was he fast with a gun, but he was incredibly, even insanely accurate. He had better than perfect vision, and exceptional eye hand coordination. Perhaps one in ten thousand could be a Bryce. Probably closer to one in a hundred thousand. But the standards of training expects everyone to be a Bryce. Fast as hell on the draw, insanely accurate, and perfect in the shoot don’t shoot decision. All within the split second that Bryce was able to perform in. Instead of setting up the training for the regular person, they set it up where the cop has to draw and fire within a second or so to qualify. Most people need more time to assess the situation, and determine if they need to fire. The cop in Texas just charged fired in less than a second from “show me your hands”.

Nobody could react in that time. Nobody could possibly obey the commands. A Marine Recruit a day before Graduation from Basic couldn’t obey that command in time. But that is the training the cops are given.

We got here by exceptions, toy guns being real ones, things that looked like guns, and finally movements towards what may be a gun. By misreading the situations that have gone bad. By having and might as well use exceptional situation weapons and training.

The exceptions got us here. It wasn’t the Blacks, the Liberals, or anything like that. It was the well intentioned reasonable attitude of the people. We wanted to be reasonable, and did not realize the road to hell we were paving with our understanding that the situation we were asked to accept instead of being exceptional, would become the new normal.

The people have realized it. The new normal horrifies them. I am not talking Liberals, or whatever. I am talking regular people. I live in Georgia, Conservative Georgia. By local standards I am the Liberal. I am a Liberal who owns firearms and has a Concealed Carry License. But my neighbors, all of whom are more conservative than I am, agree that many of these shootings are just not right. When cops in California fire 600 rounds at four bank robbers and a hostage, many of the cops firing who can not even see the bad guys, my neighbors are not supportive of the cops.

These are the Country Folk you have heard of. The ones who say Sir and Ma’am. You know the Hank Williams folks from the song. They hunt, and fish, and they drink a little beer and whiskey. They would reject most Liberal ideals as just flat assed stupid.

Even they are not impressed by the excuses of the cops like Amber Guyger, or this idiot from this thread who shot a naked man running around.

The exceptions went too far, and the pendulum is swinging back, and I have no idea how many cops are going to end up in prison before the training and policies reflect this new normal, but I honestly hope it is not one more. I believe it will be a couple dozen more, at the bare minimum, but we will have to see.

 

[harmonica]

There are few more conservative states than Georgia. Georgia joined several other states in an effort to ban abortion for one example of this Conservative Trend. Yet, even in Conservative Georgia, the words “I was afeared for my life” no longer provide the impenetrable shield against consequences for Police.

Former Georgia police officer Robert Olsen is sentenced to 12 years in prison in shooting death | Daily Mail Online

In this case, the officer shot a naked man who was running around. The man, with a history of mental issues reportedly associated with his time in the Air Force, was literally naked. So the argument that he might have had a concealed weapon was just not going to fly.

Twelve years in Prison, eight years of Probation. Georgia Prisons are awful. I watched a documentary where the issue of prisoner on prisoner violence was discussed. The guards were universal in their comments. They said the guards were there to insure nobody left, in other words escaped. Whatever happened inside was irrelevant, so long as nobody escaped.

I thought then and still believe that this was a idiotic sentiment. When you take custody of anything, you are responsible for it. If you accept a package for a neighbor, and your child smashes it with a baseball bat, you have to make amends. You had custody, and thus responsibility.

That aside, I think the important part of this issue, is how even in Georgia, the cops are being held responsible for things that they would have gotten away with just a few years ago.

No doom and gloom scenarios have appeared. The cops are still out on the street doing their thing. I still see cops out writing tickets, and no reports of cops refusing to show up and deal with crime. So the anarchy predictions of the insane right are not coming true. I say insane right, because even in Georgia, Conservative Georgia, where I am a Liberal by local standards, the police are being held to account for their actions.

Of course, by the local standards of San Francisco, or New York City, I am a raging conservative gun nut.

Now, the question is when will the Department’s and the Academy’s change to reflect this reality? I am betting more cops get prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced to Prison before the departments adjust their training and policies to admit the truth. If this continues much longer, I wonder if we will see Prison Reform as one of the platforms the Police Unions are suddenly behind? I personally would welcome that change.

make up your mind!!
first you are babbling that the cops are not held accountable
now you post a thread that they are

 

[harmonica]

There are few more conservative states than Georgia. Georgia joined several other states in an effort to ban abortion for one example of this Conservative Trend. Yet, even in Conservative Georgia, the words “I was afeared for my life” no longer provide the impenetrable shield against consequences for Police.

Former Georgia police officer Robert Olsen is sentenced to 12 years in prison in shooting death | Daily Mail Online

In this case, the officer shot a naked man who was running around. The man, with a history of mental issues reportedly associated with his time in the Air Force, was literally naked. So the argument that he might have had a concealed weapon was just not going to fly.

Twelve years in Prison, eight years of Probation. Georgia Prisons are awful. I watched a documentary where the issue of prisoner on prisoner violence was discussed. The guards were universal in their comments. They said the guards were there to insure nobody left, in other words escaped. Whatever happened inside was irrelevant, so long as nobody escaped.

I thought then and still believe that this was a idiotic sentiment. When you take custody of anything, you are responsible for it. If you accept a package for a neighbor, and your child smashes it with a baseball bat, you have to make amends. You had custody, and thus responsibility.

That aside, I think the important part of this issue, is how even in Georgia, the cops are being held responsible for things that they would have gotten away with just a few years ago.

No doom and gloom scenarios have appeared. The cops are still out on the street doing their thing. I still see cops out writing tickets, and no reports of cops refusing to show up and deal with crime. So the anarchy predictions of the insane right are not coming true. I say insane right, because even in Georgia, Conservative Georgia, where I am a Liberal by local standards, the police are being held to account for their actions.

Of course, by the local standards of San Francisco, or New York City, I am a raging conservative gun nut.

Now, the question is when will the Department’s and the Academy’s change to reflect this reality? I am betting more cops get prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced to Prison before the departments adjust their training and policies to admit the truth. If this continues much longer, I wonder if we will see Prison Reform as one of the platforms the Police Unions are suddenly behind? I personally would welcome that change.

Ok, let each case stand on it's own merits instead of politically charging them up for political purposes then. Find a solution for that, and you will have gotten somewhere in this. I think that for the most part justice has been served, but due to baiting, set ups, bad judges, activism, politicalization of the cases, bias, favoritism etc, then we get a messed up system that needs to be non-politically charged, and cleaned up. Due to politics, and the usery in it all, it's hard to imagine the system getting better before it gets way worse.

Unfortunately, change without the political element is nearly impossible. Let’s be honest for a moment. I have commented before about how we got here. It was a series of well intentioned exceptions to the standards of the era. Each exception became the foundation for the next exception. It did not take long for the exception, the exceptional circumstances to become routine.

Getting away from the “use of force” questions. Let’s take another “exceptional” question. The use of tracking of cell phones. I remember the sequence, and I will explain it for you and other readers. It stemmed from a series of court decisions. It became a legal principle that if you provided information to a third party willingly, then you had no reasonable expectation of privacy. That meant that the Police, and Federal Agents, did not need a warrant to get the information. Congress immediately jumped on this bandwagon, and passed laws requiring you to provide far more information, voluntarily of course, to accomplish anything. Your bank account now needed a copy of your drivers license, employment, and a lot of other information. All so you could deposit your paycheck and pay your bills.

The Cell Phones did not have any way to locate you. No GPS chip at the time. But Congress and the various Police Forces drooled with the prospect. Congress passed the E-911 law requiring that Cell Phone makers, and companies, put some sort of position location system in the cellphones so that when you dialed 911 the emergency operator would know where you were. That way if you couldn’t talk, you could still get help in an emergency. It took the various Agencies about ten minutes to use this to track people who were in no sort of emergency.

You were providing this information voluntarily of course, you didn’t have a choice. So the cops were really upset when the Court ruled that they needed a warrant for it. That just wasn’t fair.

One exception, the idea that information provided to a bank was not subject to the same requirements of a warrant as anything else, and look what happened. Each exception becomes the foundation for the next. It is how we got into the mess we are in. Whenever anyone does question it, the Police make it political. They rush out and inform the masses that the Cops need this ability to stop Terrorism, Drug Dealers, or (This is their favorite) Child Molesters. Anyone who opposes this wants your children to be victims of child molesters you see.

We gave the FBI the ability to use National Security Letters, for the Ticking Time Bomb scenario, where waiting for a warrant could well prevent the Feds from stopping a Terrorist Attack. It has been used more than five hundred thousand times, that they admit. About a dozen for actual Terrorism Investigations. The rest of the time it was for other investigations where the Feds didn’t want to wait for enough evidence for a warrant. When questioned about it the FBI whipped out Child Porn and Molesters as a justification for this obviously unconstitutional practice.

Without Political Pressure, changing this practice is just impossible. It just won’t happen. Obviously with half a million uses, that is what the FBI has admitted, raise your hands if you think they told us the whole truth, it is used pretty much every day for anything beyond parking violations. Think about it. Every investigation the FBI has ongoing, probably has at least one, probably more of those National Security Letters.

Our Constitution guarantees you the right to an attorney, but the NSL denies that to you. You are prohibited from discussing it with a lawyer. You have the right to peaceably assemble and redress the Government for wrongs. But not about the NSL’s, since they come with a gag order that lays out significant penalties, including prison, for talking about them. If you were served with a Search Warrant you could discuss it with your lawyer. If you were served with a Subpoena, both reviewed by Judges before being served to insure that they meet the standards of the Constitution, you could talk about it with your Lawyer, or the press, or your neighbors.

We placed an exception out there for use in exceptional circumstances, and they immediately become routine and common. The same came from the use of Force. The exceptions like the tragic story of a cop who shoots a kid with a toy gun in a poorly lit apartment complex being justified since he could not know it was a kid, with a toy. Those exceptions became the world we live in today, where the threat used to justify the use of deadly force is whatever the fevered imagination of the cop can conjure up.

Show me something that hasn’t been changed with political pressure, or action. Civil Rights? Second Amendment Rights? Both have been strengthened by Political Pressure and activism. I presume you do not object to demands to your elected officials to defend the Second Amendment.

more babbling --makes no sense
what are you doing that the FBI needs to track you??!!

 

[Oddball]

 

[harmonica]

View attachment 287797

but you are full of shit--because that rarely happens

 

[Natural Citizen]

but you are full of shit--because that rarely happens