Founding Fathers: We Are Not a Christian Nation

[Iceweasel]

I have a question for those who claim we are, in fact, a Christian nation (not just a nation of predominantly Christian people).

Would you say that the basic tenets of Christianity would be contained in the 10 Commandments?

Christians don't live under Mosaic Law.

Christians certainly threw a fit when Judge Roy Moore was ordered to remove his 10 commandments monument from the state supreme courthouse lobby.

Are you saying that Christians are not bound by the 10 Commandments?? Plenty of religious scholars would disagree with you.

Name them. You apparently do not understand what the New Testament (Covenant) means. And I think you misunderstood the beef Christians had.

The Cliff notes version is that Hebrews lived under The Law, failing miserably at times. No one could live without breaking it. Except Jesus, who came and fulfilled The Law, offering Himself up as sacrifice. Christians believe the law breaking is sin but by accepting the sacrifice (believing in Jesus) they are living in the new deal God made with man.

 

[BluesLegend]

So you liberals wave the Constitution like a battle sword attacking Christians while at the same time you undermine it to transform America into some socialist slave state, got it. /eyeroll

Who is attacking Christians? Why is having a secular nation an attack on Christians? You got to be the defacto ruling class for most of the time we have been a nation. And did so without taking responsibility for any failures or trangressions.

And when people start demanding that you relinquish your power in the gov't, per the US Constitution, you whine about being attacked?? lol

You liberals are hilarious in your dishonesty. You stand there, cookie crumbs down your shirt, chocolate smeared on your face, mouth stuffed full of cookie and claim you didn't sneak a cookie. lol

Quit spouting nonsense and tell us exactly how Christians are being attacked? If attempting to label me a liberal helps you feel better, by all means go for it. No need to worry about accuracy.

What would be the point, from your post its clear discussing the topic with you would be a complete waste of time.

The point would be to be shown not to be a whining liar.

From your posts it is clear that you have no basis for your claims of christians being attacked. Thanks for playing.

Its not personal, I hate most liberals.

 

[The Rabbi]

I know where you are trying to go with this, free masons and all the rest, I have read on the internet on this subject the past 20 years now I have been in the political chatrooms and now the forums , it is a long old debate, that always ends in a stalemate.

If the rules of Christianity demand that there be no other gods, that there is only one god, that you not take his name in vain, and that the sabbath be kept holy, then this is certainly not a Christian nation, since we do none of those (by law).

Except the rules of christiianity are not from the 10 COmmandments. The rest of the post is fallacy as well. IT's like saying since the English drink tea and eat crumpets and we dont do those things then we werent a colony of England.

Bad analogy. I am saying that, since the laws or rules of Christianity demand that there be only one god, that no other gods are tolerated, this nation (which tolerates all faiths) is not a Christian nation.

Since the laws of Chrisitianity demand no work be done on Sunday and all government offices are closed on Sunday then we are a Christian nation.
See how that works?

Except most gov't offices are closed on saturday AND sunday. And some gov't offices do not close at all. See how that works?

Also, the sabbath is Saturday.

The Christian Sabbath is Sunday. All government offices are closed on Sunday, unless they are needed for some vital purpose. That some are closed Saturday too is irrelevant.
Christianity recognizes Christmas and Easter as holidays. In the US all gov't offices are closed on Christmas and Easter. Ergo we must be a Christian nation.

 

[The Rabbi]

I have a question for those who claim we are, in fact, a Christian nation (not just a nation of predominantly Christian people).

Would you say that the basic tenets of Christianity would be contained in the 10 Commandments?

Christians don't live under Mosaic Law.

Christians certainly threw a fit when Judge Roy Moore was ordered to remove his 10 commandments monument from the state supreme courthouse lobby.

Are you saying that Christians are not bound by the 10 Commandments?? Plenty of religious scholars would disagree with you.

Name them. You apparently do not understand what the New Testament (Covenant) means. And I think you misunderstood the beef Christians had.

The Cliff notes version is that Hebrews lived under The Law, failing miserably at times. No one could live without breaking it. Except Jesus, who came and fulfilled The Law, offering Himself up as sacrifice. Christians believe the law breaking is sin but by accepting the sacrifice (believing in Jesus) they are living in the new deal God made with man.

This is always how I understood it.

 

[WinterBorn]

Seems to me I don't remember a president in history put his right hand up and his left hand on the Koran being sworn in as president of the USA

How come no separation of church and state during that ceremony?

Because the president being sworn in CHOSE to use the Bible. Not all presidents used the same Bible, and two were sworn in without a Bible at all. Were Teddy Roosevelt and John Quincy Adams not presidents?

I have never said that religion is forbidden. Just that we are not a Christian nation. There is a difference.

If we arent a Christian nation then why do people swear on a Bible? The fact that a couple didnt just enforces the idea that the norm is to do so. Only Christians swear on a Bible.

Because they do so by choice? No. If it were a Christian nation it would be required.

And at least one congressman has taken his oath with his hand upon the Quran.

 

[The Rabbi]

Seems to me I don't remember a president in history put his right hand up and his left hand on the Koran being sworn in as president of the USA

How come no separation of church and state during that ceremony?

Because the president being sworn in CHOSE to use the Bible. Not all presidents used the same Bible, and two were sworn in without a Bible at all. Were Teddy Roosevelt and John Quincy Adams not presidents?

I have never said that religion is forbidden. Just that we are not a Christian nation. There is a difference.

If we arent a Christian nation then why do people swear on a Bible? The fact that a couple didnt just enforces the idea that the norm is to do so. Only Christians swear on a Bible.

Because they do so by choice? No. If it were a Christian nation it would be required.

And at least one congressman has taken his oath with his hand upon the Quran.

They do so by custom. A custom created by Christians and continued by them. Again the fact that a few dont indicates how widespread it is.

 

[WinterBorn]

If the rules of Christianity demand that there be no other gods, that there is only one god, that you not take his name in vain, and that the sabbath be kept holy, then this is certainly not a Christian nation, since we do none of those (by law).

Except the rules of christiianity are not from the 10 COmmandments. The rest of the post is fallacy as well. IT's like saying since the English drink tea and eat crumpets and we dont do those things then we werent a colony of England.

Bad analogy. I am saying that, since the laws or rules of Christianity demand that there be only one god, that no other gods are tolerated, this nation (which tolerates all faiths) is not a Christian nation.

Since the laws of Chrisitianity demand no work be done on Sunday and all government offices are closed on Sunday then we are a Christian nation.
See how that works?

Except most gov't offices are closed on saturday AND sunday. And some gov't offices do not close at all. See how that works?

Also, the sabbath is Saturday.

The Christian Sabbath is Sunday. All government offices are closed on Sunday, unless they are needed for some vital purpose. That some are closed Saturday too is irrelevant.
Christianity recognizes Christmas and Easter as holidays. In the US all gov't offices are closed on Christmas and Easter. Ergo we must be a Christian nation.

No, not at all. As I stated earlier in the thread, there was a time that Christians usurped powers and then lost them.

That the majority of our population is Christian accounts for holidays. But gov't workers can also get paid days off for other religions too.

 

[Iceweasel]

If Christianity is not the ruling religion, then our gov't is not a Christian gov't. In that case, as I have said before, we are a secular nation that is predominantly Christian by population. The nation (laws, gov't ect) is not Christian.

Jesus Christ! Christianity isn't ruling and I've said about five times now that the government is secular. The culture Christian, not the government. Although there are many examples of government doing Christian things they aren't passing Christian law (except for the local blue laws I mentioned) because even Christians aren't living under the law. There is NO Christian Law.

 

[WinterBorn]

Seems to me I don't remember a president in history put his right hand up and his left hand on the Koran being sworn in as president of the USA

How come no separation of church and state during that ceremony?

Because the president being sworn in CHOSE to use the Bible. Not all presidents used the same Bible, and two were sworn in without a Bible at all. Were Teddy Roosevelt and John Quincy Adams not presidents?

I have never said that religion is forbidden. Just that we are not a Christian nation. There is a difference.

If we arent a Christian nation then why do people swear on a Bible? The fact that a couple didnt just enforces the idea that the norm is to do so. Only Christians swear on a Bible.

Because they do so by choice? No. If it were a Christian nation it would be required.

And at least one congressman has taken his oath with his hand upon the Quran.

They do so by custom. A custom created by Christians and continued by them. Again the fact that a few dont indicates how widespread it is.

That it is a custom and not a rule or law means everything. It means that the person being sworn in is a Christian. It does NOT mean the nation is Christian.

 

[WinterBorn]

If Christianity is not the ruling religion, then our gov't is not a Christian gov't. In that case, as I have said before, we are a secular nation that is predominantly Christian by population. The nation (laws, gov't ect) is not Christian.

Jesus Christ! Christianity isn't ruling and I've said about five times now that the government is secular. The culture Christian, not the government. Although there are many examples of government doing Christian things they aren't passing Christian law (except for the local blue laws I mentioned) because even Christians aren't living under the law. There is NO Christian Law.

Then, by your definition, we are a secular nation that is predominantly Christian. That is far different than being a Christian nation. The OP was trying to prove that our gov't was formed as a Christian organization.

You and I have been agreeing.

 

[Iceweasel]

I have a question for those who claim we are, in fact, a Christian nation (not just a nation of predominantly Christian people).

Would you say that the basic tenets of Christianity would be contained in the 10 Commandments?

Christians don't live under Mosaic Law.

Christians certainly threw a fit when Judge Roy Moore was ordered to remove his 10 commandments monument from the state supreme courthouse lobby.

Are you saying that Christians are not bound by the 10 Commandments?? Plenty of religious scholars would disagree with you.

Name them. You apparently do not understand what the New Testament (Covenant) means. And I think you misunderstood the beef Christians had.

The Cliff notes version is that Hebrews lived under The Law, failing miserably at times. No one could live without breaking it. Except Jesus, who came and fulfilled The Law, offering Himself up as sacrifice. Christians believe the law breaking is sin but by accepting the sacrifice (believing in Jesus) they are living in the new deal God made with man.

This is always how I understood it.

It's the basic tenet of Christianity everywhere I went. It ain't that complicated but some people can't get it. Agreeing with it or not is a different story but they miss the whole purpose of Jesus.

 

[The Rabbi]

Seems to me I don't remember a president in history put his right hand up and his left hand on the Koran being sworn in as president of the USA

How come no separation of church and state during that ceremony?

Because the president being sworn in CHOSE to use the Bible. Not all presidents used the same Bible, and two were sworn in without a Bible at all. Were Teddy Roosevelt and John Quincy Adams not presidents?

I have never said that religion is forbidden. Just that we are not a Christian nation. There is a difference.

If we arent a Christian nation then why do people swear on a Bible? The fact that a couple didnt just enforces the idea that the norm is to do so. Only Christians swear on a Bible.

Because they do so by choice? No. If it were a Christian nation it would be required.

And at least one congressman has taken his oath with his hand upon the Quran.

They do so by custom. A custom created by Christians and continued by them. Again the fact that a few dont indicates how widespread it is.

That it is a custom and not a rule or law means everything. It means that the person being sworn in is a Christian. It does NOT mean the nation is Christian.

It is a nation founded and run by Christians and holds assumptions that are based on Christianity.

 

[The Rabbi]

I have a question for those who claim we are, in fact, a Christian nation (not just a nation of predominantly Christian people).

Would you say that the basic tenets of Christianity would be contained in the 10 Commandments?

Christians don't live under Mosaic Law.

Christians certainly threw a fit when Judge Roy Moore was ordered to remove his 10 commandments monument from the state supreme courthouse lobby.

Are you saying that Christians are not bound by the 10 Commandments?? Plenty of religious scholars would disagree with you.

Name them. You apparently do not understand what the New Testament (Covenant) means. And I think you misunderstood the beef Christians had.

The Cliff notes version is that Hebrews lived under The Law, failing miserably at times. No one could live without breaking it. Except Jesus, who came and fulfilled The Law, offering Himself up as sacrifice. Christians believe the law breaking is sin but by accepting the sacrifice (believing in Jesus) they are living in the new deal God made with man.

This is always how I understood it.

It's the basic tenet of Christianity everywhere I went. It ain't that complicated but some people can't get it. Agreeing with it or not is a different story but they miss the whole purpose of Jesus.

No you're right. The formulation is a correct account of Christianity. That it is completely wrong is irrelevant.

 

[WinterBorn]

Because the president being sworn in CHOSE to use the Bible. Not all presidents used the same Bible, and two were sworn in without a Bible at all. Were Teddy Roosevelt and John Quincy Adams not presidents?

I have never said that religion is forbidden. Just that we are not a Christian nation. There is a difference.

If we arent a Christian nation then why do people swear on a Bible? The fact that a couple didnt just enforces the idea that the norm is to do so. Only Christians swear on a Bible.

Because they do so by choice? No. If it were a Christian nation it would be required.

And at least one congressman has taken his oath with his hand upon the Quran.

They do so by custom. A custom created by Christians and continued by them. Again the fact that a few dont indicates how widespread it is.

That it is a custom and not a rule or law means everything. It means that the person being sworn in is a Christian. It does NOT mean the nation is Christian.

It is a nation founded and run by Christians and holds assumptions that are based on Christianity.

And yet, the gov't is certainly not Christian. What an individuals beliefs are is not the point.

 

[Iceweasel]

If Christianity is not the ruling religion, then our gov't is not a Christian gov't. In that case, as I have said before, we are a secular nation that is predominantly Christian by population. The nation (laws, gov't ect) is not Christian.

Jesus Christ! Christianity isn't ruling and I've said about five times now that the government is secular. The culture Christian, not the government. Although there are many examples of government doing Christian things they aren't passing Christian law (except for the local blue laws I mentioned) because even Christians aren't living under the law. There is NO Christian Law.

Then, by your definition, we are a secular nation that is predominantly Christian. That is far different than being a Christian nation. The OP was trying to prove that our gov't was formed as a Christian organization.

You and I have been agreeing.

I didn't see that in the OP but the predominant culture is what defines a nation. Muslim countries are mostly Muslim, not all are 100% Muslim.

 

[Wyatt earp]

when a person tradionaly swears Under oath what does he put his left on? The constitution ? The Koran ?

Or the Bible?

Is that because using the Bible is required? Or because it is a choice?

Seems to me I don't remember a president in history put his right hand up and his left hand on the Koran being sworn in as president of the USA

How come no separation of church and state during that ceremony?

Because the president being sworn in CHOSE to use the Bible. Not all presidents used the same Bible, and two were sworn in without a Bible at all. Were Teddy Roosevelt and John Quincy Adams not presidents?

I have never said that religion is forbidden. Just that we are not a Christian nation. There is a difference.

If we arent a Christian nation then why do people swear on a Bible? The fact that a couple didnt just enforces the idea that the norm is to do so. Only Christians swear on a Bible.

Because they do so by choice? No. If it were a Christian nation it would be required.

And at least one congressman has taken his oath with his hand upon the Quran.

Really who?

Thats very interesting , you have a link?

 

[The Rabbi]

If we arent a Christian nation then why do people swear on a Bible? The fact that a couple didnt just enforces the idea that the norm is to do so. Only Christians swear on a Bible.

Because they do so by choice? No. If it were a Christian nation it would be required.

And at least one congressman has taken his oath with his hand upon the Quran.

They do so by custom. A custom created by Christians and continued by them. Again the fact that a few dont indicates how widespread it is.

That it is a custom and not a rule or law means everything. It means that the person being sworn in is a Christian. It does NOT mean the nation is Christian.

It is a nation founded and run by Christians and holds assumptions that are based on Christianity.

And yet, the gov't is certainly not Christian. What an individuals beliefs are is not the point.

The US is not a theocracy. I dont think anyone says it is or ought to be.

 

[The Rabbi]

when a person tradionaly swears Under oath what does he put his left on? The constitution ? The Koran ?

Or the Bible?

Is that because using the Bible is required? Or because it is a choice?

Seems to me I don't remember a president in history put his right hand up and his left hand on the Koran being sworn in as president of the USA

How come no separation of church and state during that ceremony?

Because the president being sworn in CHOSE to use the Bible. Not all presidents used the same Bible, and two were sworn in without a Bible at all. Were Teddy Roosevelt and John Quincy Adams not presidents?

I have never said that religion is forbidden. Just that we are not a Christian nation. There is a difference.

If we arent a Christian nation then why do people swear on a Bible? The fact that a couple didnt just enforces the idea that the norm is to do so. Only Christians swear on a Bible.

Because they do so by choice? No. If it were a Christian nation it would be required.

And at least one congressman has taken his oath with his hand upon the Quran.

Really who?

Thats very interesting , you have a link?

There's a Muslim Congressman from Michigan. This is probably who he means.

 

[WinterBorn]

If Christianity is not the ruling religion, then our gov't is not a Christian gov't. In that case, as I have said before, we are a secular nation that is predominantly Christian by population. The nation (laws, gov't ect) is not Christian.

Jesus Christ! Christianity isn't ruling and I've said about five times now that the government is secular. The culture Christian, not the government. Although there are many examples of government doing Christian things they aren't passing Christian law (except for the local blue laws I mentioned) because even Christians aren't living under the law. There is NO Christian Law.

Then, by your definition, we are a secular nation that is predominantly Christian. That is far different than being a Christian nation. The OP was trying to prove that our gov't was formed as a Christian organization.

You and I have been agreeing.

I didn't see that in the OP but the predominant culture is what defines a nation. Muslim countries are mostly Muslim, not all are 100% Muslim.

There is a difference between a population being mostly one faith and the nation being of that faith.

We are a mostly Christian people with a secular gov't.

 

[BULLDOG]

The fact that the founding fathers were mostly christian shows the level of their dedication to creating a secular nation.

Bullshit.
The Constitution barred the FEDERAL government from establishing religion. But state governments were free to do so. And they did.
Religion is interwoven into our system because the people who founded it and governed it were religious people. They damnsure werent Muslims either.

Damn you're dumb.