Flag Burning

[007]

Now you talking like a Democrat. The Democrat Party is all for restricting the rights the American people. They'd be glad to have you.

Bullshit. The liberals are the ones that stand back and, "don't have a problem with it".

 

[Semper Fi]

"You know the one thing that's wrong with this country? Everyone gets a chance to have their fair say."
President William Clinton addressing the people of Philadelphia, May 28, 1993 in the Courtyard, City Hall, Philadelphia, PA

Spoken like a true prick, Willy...

 

[Redhots]

That's my opinion. I couldn't give a shit less how you feel about it.

Do you think people should respect your opinions?

 

[CSM]

...Anyone who advocates physical violence against another person because that person "attacked" an inamimet ojbect (an object that they own) is a little unhinged in the head or needs to grow up.

...QUOTE]

I dunno about that. I advocate, approve and helped in the past execute physical violence against those who attacke two inanimate objects on 9/11. I am all grown up and my last psyc eval says I am not unhinged either.

Utopian ideals are great in books and on college campuses but are not worth crap in the real world.

 

[GotZoom]

What point is that? That the American flag is the same thing as a living human being?

No i'm sure that isn't it.

It most certainly is. It deserves respect; just as human beings deserve respect.

You don't have to like the POTUS but you have to respect the position. Same as with your teacher, your boss, etc.

You may not like our country..or our flag; but you should give it respect.

I think what you want to ask is if I understand that some people get very upset about flag burning because the flag represents for them something important, just like I might view my mother as something important to me.

I understand that.

No. What I want to ask is what would you do if you witnessed someone saying those things to your mother? Would you let it go? Or would you kick his ass?

I would hope that you would kick his ass..several times over. Why? Because he is disrespecting your mother. He is saying things to your mother that people shouldn't say to anyone.

He is disrespecting your mother. You will react in a way to stop the disrespect.

No different than those who respect the flag. Should they see someone doing something disrespectful, they will stop it.

Why do you feel the passion should be different? Don't respect my family, my friends, my country.

Now this bit about why I shouldn't be upset "because its just free speach"... I never said anywhere that people don't have the right to be offended by flag burning, or even that they shouldn't. I also said that it doesn't upset me because really its just a childish act, a group of strangers throwing a temper tantrum.

All I did was try to add some perspective to the thread about how other people might view the flag.

And what kind of responses do I get?

Again...I was asking you a question that you did not answer. Just because you don't feel that burning the flag is a sign of disrespect to our country and to everyone who has ever served/died defending it, doesn't mean that everyone should just blow it up and not be bothered by it.

Anyone who advocates physical violence against another person because that person "attacked" an inamimet ojbect (an object that they own) is a little unhinged in the head or needs to grow up.

What does bother me is when people advocate violence against someone engaging in that behaviour.

Why? If someone took a hammer to your car, would you not strike out? If someone threw a Molotov cocktail at your house, would you not be upset and do what you had to do to stop them?

Those are inanimate objects...would you just let it go?

 

[007]

Do you think people should respect your opinions?

I'm not here to win a popularity contest. I'm here to voice my opinion. Whether you respect them or not doesn't make any difference to me.

 

[Nuc]

There's lots of debate in the world about religon. No one can prove there's a god. Most religons as Christianty is, is faith based. Unlike the American flag, which is a tangible symbol of this country you can hold and see. Our flag holds the blood of everyone that has fought for it, and died for it. It's our one and only flag, and I just feel it deserves protection from acts of desecration by zealots and fanatics.

I think anyone who burns the American flag, IN America, shouldn't be allowed to be here. Burning the American flag IN America should carry deportation, to say Iraq. Stand in the middle of Baghdad and burn the Iraqi flag, and see what happens.

Maybe this should be the case, but SCOTUS has spoken on this issue and it's not likely to change, so isn't it a bit of wasted energy to get wound up about it? I personally have never seen anybody burning the flag. It's not really a big deal, in fact most of us would never encounter it if not for the media blowing it up.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

I'm not here to win a popularity contest. I'm here to voice my opinion. Whether you respect them or not doesn't make any difference to me.

I don't think the issue is respsecting your opinions. The pattern I have seen is you not respecting anyone else's opinion. Flag Burning is a civil liberty. It is meant to get the attention of whomever the protester is petitioning. Am I for flag burning? Its not a black and white, for or agianst issue. I would personally defend the flag if I were ever to see it burned. I have shed blood in protection in the most holy of symbols that represents this great nation, but unfortunatly, that blood was shed in defense of that assholes right to burn the flag as well.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

I think anyone who burns the American flag, IN America, shouldn't be allowed to be here. Burning the American flag IN America should carry deportation, to say Iraq. Stand in the middle of Baghdad and burn the Iraqi flag, and see what happens.

Are you saying that we should be more like the third world countries that kill people for shits and giggles? What makes our country great is that a citizen can burn a flag and you and I can get pissed off about it. Burning a flag isn't treason. The flag is a piece of cloth. It has thirteen stripes and fifty stars, but is nothing more than cloth. It will burn, but the ideaology that it stands for can never burn. The flag hasn't been bought by blood, the ideals behind it have. Burn the flag, I don't care. I didn't fight for a flag. I fought for for the idea that democracy will overcome and that one day no one will feel the need to burn the flag.

 

[GotZoom]

Are you saying that we should be more like the third world countries that kill people for shits and giggles? What makes our country great is that a citizen can burn a flag and you and I can get pissed off about it. Burning a flag isn't treason. The flag is a piece of cloth. It has thirteen stripes and fifty stars, but is nothing more than cloth. It will burn, but the ideaology that it stands for can never burn. The flag hasn't been bought by blood, the ideals behind it have. Burn the flag, I don't care. I didn't fight for a flag. I fought for for the idea that democracy will overcome and that one day no one will feel the need to burn the flag.

A very sad commentary.

You don't see how the flag is a symbol of everything...our country...the people who fought and died for our country, and the ideas that are our country.

When you say the flag is nothing but a piece of cloth...you just don't get it.

Sad. Very sad.

 

[Dr Grump]

...you just don't get it.

He gets it. He just doesnt' agree with the POV of most.

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

I dunno about that. I advocate, approve and helped in the past execute physical violence against those who attacke two inanimate objects on 9/11. I am all grown up and my last psyc eval says I am not unhinged either.

Utopian ideals are great in books and on college campuses but are not worth crap in the real world.

The attacks on 9/11 were against other people's property. If someone wants to crash their own airplane into their own building (away from other buildings), they should be able to.

And utopian ideals are what this country was founded on.

 

[Hobbit]

The attacks on 9/11 were against other people's property. If someone wants to crash their own airplane into their own building (away from other buildings), they should be able to.

And utopian ideals are what this country was founded on.

Hardly. The founding fathers knew that Utopia was nothing but a pipe dream (the word literally means "nowhere"). That's why they put so many restrictions on the federal government. They knew that they had to limit the rights and powers of the federal government to obtain a free society.

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

Eh, maybe that's not the right word, I just meant that founding a nation with no monarch, free press, freedom of religion, a decentralized government, etc. probably seemed fairly utopian to some at the time.

 

[Annie]

Eh, maybe that's not the right word, I just meant that founding a nation with no monarch, free press, freedom of religion, a decentralized government, etc. probably seemed fairly utopian to some at the time.

Funny, still strikes me as unique...

 

[CrimsonWhite]

A very sad commentary.

You don't see how the flag is a symbol of everything...our country...the people who fought and died for our country, and the ideas that are our country.

When you say the flag is nothing but a piece of cloth...you just don't get it.

Sad. Very sad.

Trust me, I get it. Am I wrong for seeing the United States as something more than a flag? I don't think so. Seeing the red, white, and blue flying over sports stadiums and government buildings makes me proud and seeing Old Glory draped over the coffins of my brethren brings me to tears. The flag is a piece of cloth. Don't tell me I don't get it. You don't get it. If you need a piece of cloth to represent your ideals, then you have none of your own. I love the flag. A direct quote from my post before. "I would personally defend the flag if I were ever to see it burned. I have shed blood in protection in the most holy of symbols that represents this great nation, but unfortunatly, that blood was shed in defense of that assholes right to burn the flag as well."

I get it and I love, but it doesn't define me. If you don't like my opinion, that's fine. Just don't tell me that I don't get it, when it is obvious that you don't either.

 

[GotZoom]

Trust me, I get it. Am I wrong for seeing the United States as something more than a flag? I don't think so. Seeing the red, white, and blue flying over sports stadiums and government buildings makes me proud and seeing Old Glory draped over the coffins of my brethren brings me to tears. The flag is a piece of cloth. Don't tell me I don't get it. You don't get it. If you need a piece of cloth to represent your ideals, then you have none of your own. I love the flag. A direct quote from my post before. "I would personally defend the flag if I were ever to see it burned. I have shed blood in protection in the most holy of symbols that represents this great nation, but unfortunatly, that blood was shed in defense of that assholes right to burn the flag as well."

I get it and I love, but it doesn't define me. If you don't like my opinion, that's fine. Just don't tell me that I don't get it, when it is obvious that you don't either.

It is amazing to me how, in one sentence you can say "the flag is a piece of cloth - if I need a cloth to represent my ideals, then I have none of my own" but then in another you would defend the flag if you ever saw it burned.

Why would you defend the flag if you saw it being burned?

It is only a piece of cloth...it doesn't represent any ideals..just a piece of cloth.

 

[Gunny]

Who gets to decide which forums are proper and which aren't? Should we ban flag burning, but allow Koran and Bible burning? Those are "acting" too. Surely burning a bible is more offensive than burning a flag? What about cross burning?

You're arguing a literalist argument for the sake of argument, outside the context of the intent of my statement, and/or the law.

It appears you are more concerned with your individual right to scratch your ass in public than appropriate public decorum. A proper forum would be a setting where an individual/group of individuals can voice their grievances to the appropriate officials in a reasonable manner. Burning the symbol of this Nation is NOT voicing a grievance in a reasonble manner.

I do not advocate the desecration of anything solely for the sake of sensationalism/getting some attention.

I agree that a sidewalk is not a proper forum for flag burning, mainly due to the fire code. It should be restricted to private property. Of course if I had my way, there wouldn't be much of any public property, and private road and sidewalk owners would decide if they want to allow protestors and flag burners, but that's a different thread.



Should peaceful-but-subversive propaganda be allowed?

Would I personally allow it? No. Is it allowed by law in this Nation? Yes.

The constitution isn't a document which lays out a list of what you may do, or a document which states that the government may do as it pleases except for X, Y, and Z. It's a document of enumerated powers, where the federal government is allowed a short list of things which it may do, and nothing more. And deciding what constitutes acceptable expression is not on that list. Granted, this principle has been increasingly ignored for 70+ years, but that's what it actually says.

Well gee,thanks for the class. I'm well aware of what the Constitution says and does.

As I stated before, people used to use logic and common sense. Now, if it is not expressly prohibited, then it's fair game, and that's just bullshit.

 

[007]

Maybe this should be the case, but SCOTUS has spoken on this issue and it's not likely to change, so isn't it a bit of wasted energy to get wound up about it? I personally have never seen anybody burning the flag. It's not really a big deal, in fact most of us would never encounter it if not for the media blowing it up.

I'm far from wound up. And yes, burning the American flag is a big deal to this veteran.

So you think so what, who cares. I think you burn one if front of me, and we have a problem. Probably that will end in some sort of physical confrontation.

I'm not saying YOU are going to burn one. Just that I'd intervene if I ever saw it happening, where you wouldn't. I guess I'm just more patriotic than you are.

 

[007]

I don't think the issue is respsecting your opinions. The pattern I have seen is you not respecting anyone else's opinion.

There's plenty of people here that I respect their opinions. And there's people here that respect mine. You being a cherry here with very little time on the board haven't been able to see that yet. You're assuming, and you know what they say about that.

Flag Burning is a civil liberty. It is meant to get the attention of whomever the protester is petitioning. Am I for flag burning? Its not a black and white, for or agianst issue. I would personally defend the flag if I were ever to see it burned. I have shed blood in protection in the most holy of symbols that represents this great nation, but unfortunatly, that blood was shed in defense of that assholes right to burn the flag as well.

Burning the American flag is about as cut and dried of an act of total disrespect and outright irreverence for America and all that died defending it as possible. If you don't think the American flag is worth defending from such treatment, then what are you doing here?

Respect that.