Flag Burning

[Redhots]

Disagree. The US flag represents this Nation and its ideals. Burning the US flag is nothing more than symbolically attacking the ideals themselves.

I'll agree with that.

I'd also like to state while it may be a representation of American Ideals it is also a symbol of current American policy. It is not a static thing.

Compare the reactions of people outside America to the American flag today with their feelings about the American flag 10 years ago. The flag does not represent the same "ideals" today as it used to to them.

The same goes for some Americans who might decide to burn the flag. So what they burn in their eyes is what the flag has become, not what it was (again from their perspective). I imagine most of them are very patriotic too. They just have a different view than you.

This last part is a bit over the top though IMO.

It is an act of violence committed against this Nation, its ideals and the people who live within the bounds of those ideals.

It isn't anymore "violent" than a group of citizens holding book burnings and CD smashings.

Its just angery people attacking an abstact idea. It doesn't harm anyone.

For me its something I don't see myself ever doing, but have no major problems with other people doing.

I remember people used to think it was "disrespectful" to wear the American flag on clothing. My how times have changed.

 

[Gunny]

I'll agree with that.

I'd also like to state while it may be a representation of American Ideals it is also a symbol of current American policy. It is not a static thing.

The flag represents "we the people," and the ideals that make up this Nation as defined by the US Constitution. It is NOT a symbol of whichever party happens to control the government at the moment.
Compare the reactions of people outside America to the American flag today with their feelings about the American flag 10 years ago. The flag does not represent the same "ideals" today as it used to to them.

What people outside of this Nation think of us means very little to me; especially, since 9 times out of 10, those verysame people are ignoring logic and common sense for what they feel suits them best at the moment with no thought to future consequences of their shortsightedness.

The same goes for some Americans who might decide to burn the flag. So what they burn in their eyes is what the flag has become, not what it was (again from their perspective). I imagine most of them are very patriotic too. They just have a different view than you.

There is NOTHING patriotic about burning the symbol of this Nation, regardless the reason. That amounts to nothing more than making excuses for piss-poor, ungrateful behavior.

This last part is a bit over the top though IMO.



It isn't anymore "violent" than a group of citizens holding book burnings and CD smashings.

Its just angery people attacking an abstact idea. It doesn't harm anyone.

For me its something I don't see myself ever doing, but have no major problems with other people doing.

I remember people used to think it was "disrespectful" to wear the American flag on clothing. My how times have changed.

Burning the US flag is an act of violence. So is burning books, cd's, or whatever. Nothing over the top about a matter-of-fact statement.

Burning the flag is symbolically burning this Nation to the ground for extremist reasons. While you choose to simplify it into a thoughtless act of protest, I do not. I take it for what it actually is.

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

Disagree. The US flag represents this Nation and its ideals. Burning the US flag is nothing more than symbolically attacking the ideals themselves.

Okay, so it's symbolic.

It is an act of violence committed against this Nation, its ideals and the people who live within the bounds of those ideals.

But umm wait, you just said it was symbolic; now you're saying it's an actual act of violence?

It's a symbolic act which isn't anywhere near as dangerous to the US government as say, writing a persuasive anti-government article. That's because an op-ed piece in your local paper might actually influence voters, whereas burning a flag instantly marginalizes you as a kook not worth listening to. Has a flag burner ever gained an increasing number of followers, who then turned out to the voting booths? No. In fact, I'm trying really hard to think of the last time I saw an american flag burner on TV, american citizens I mean.

If we're going to ban anything in the name of protecting the government (that's what you mean by "this Nation" I assume--treating the government and the nation as though they were the same), we really need to start with anti-government speeches, or at least speeches that are critical of the constitution, the foundation of the government itself.

 

[nukeman]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to GunnyL again

 

[007]

I'll agree with that.

I'd also like to state while it may be a representation of American Ideals it is also a symbol of current American policy. It is not a static thing.

Trying to describe the flag as just some sort of mediocre symbol is bullshit. It's the flag of our NATION, and it's been paid for in blood. You burn it, you're pissing on, with disrespect, the dead bodies of all those who paid for it with their blood.

Compare the reactions of people outside America to the American flag today with their feelings about the American flag 10 years ago. The flag does not represent the same "ideals" today as it used to to them.

Then fuck 'em... who cares.

The same goes for some Americans who might decide to burn the flag. So what they burn in their eyes is what the flag has become, not what it was (again from their perspective). I imagine most of them are very patriotic too. They just have a different view than you.

Then they need to be educated about what the flag really is.

It isn't anymore "violent" than a group of citizens holding book burnings and CD smashings.

Its just angery people attacking an abstact idea. It doesn't harm anyone.

Again.. bullshit. If you think the American flag is nothing more than an ABSTRACT IDEA, then you're a fucking communist, because you're talking like a goddamned enemy of America.

For me its something I don't see myself ever doing, but have no major problems with other people doing.

You're a pathetic liberal pile of shit. Anyone who would stand by and watch the American flag be burnt, AND NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT, needs his skull caved in.

 

[GotZoom]

I'll agree with that.

I'd also like to state while it may be a representation of American Ideals it is also a symbol of current American policy. It is not a static thing.

Compare the reactions of people outside America to the American flag today with their feelings about the American flag 10 years ago. The flag does not represent the same "ideals" today as it used to to them.

The same goes for some Americans who might decide to burn the flag. So what they burn in their eyes is what the flag has become, not what it was (again from their perspective). I imagine most of them are very patriotic too. They just have a different view than you.

This last part is a bit over the top though IMO.



It isn't anymore "violent" than a group of citizens holding book burnings and CD smashings.

Its just angery people attacking an abstact idea. It doesn't harm anyone.

For me its something I don't see myself ever doing, but have no major problems with other people doing.

I remember people used to think it was "disrespectful" to wear the American flag on clothing. My how times have changed.

Would you have a problem with someone walking up to your mom, standing directly in her face, and calling her a filthy little C*#%-sucking, slut?

You shouldn't. After all, freedom of speech.

(Don't misunderstand. I'm making a point. I am not saying anything disparaging aginst your family. Simply making a point)

 

[Nuc]

I get equally disgusted by people using the confederate flag as by people burning the US flag. If our flag is so sacred, why do we allow people to fly the flag of a defeated wannabe country? Germany doesn't allow the swastika. Face it if we have enough freedom to fly something ridiculous like the confederate flag, we must also have enough freedom to burn the flag. That's what freedom is about, and freedom is not always in good taste.

 

[007]

I get equally disgusted by people using the confederate flag as by people burning the US flag. If our flag is so sacred, why do we allow people to fly the flag of a defeated wannabe country? Germany doesn't allow the swastika. Face it if we have enough freedom to fly something ridiculous like the confederate flag, we must also have enough freedom to burn the flag. That's what freedom is about, and freedom is not always in good taste.

I'm all for freedom Nuc, but I believe sometimes you have to draw the line somewhere, and when it comes to our flag, burning it is over the line, in my opinion.

I don't look at the Confederate flag any different than I do one of the many early flags of America. It's our history.

 

[nosarcasm]

Disagree. The US flag represents this Nation and its ideals. Burning the US flag is nothing more than symbolically attacking the ideals themselves. It is an act of violence committed against this Nation, its ideals and the people who live within the bounds of those ideals.

it symbols somebody does not agree with the US government. Hey its a disrespectful act but I wouldnt want people to go to prison over it.

Foreigners that do it should be denied entry to the US.

 

[Nuc]

I'm all for freedom Nuc, but I believe sometimes you have to draw the line somewhere, and when it comes to our flag, burning it is over the line, in my opinion.

I don't look at the Confederate flag any different than I do one of the many early flags of America. It's our history.

There was the recent case of a German dude who got jailed for making and selling toilet paper with the Koran on it. I thought it was wrong, that if he wants to express himself that way, who cares? But if you make one offensive thing illegal, like flag burning it opens the door for making a lot of other things which are offensive to some people illegal.

 

[Semper Fi]

There was the recent case of a German dude who got jailed for making and selling toilet paper with the Koran on it. I thought it was wrong, that if he wants to express himself that way, who cares? But if you make one offensive thing illegal, like flag burning it opens the door for making a lot of other things which are offensive to some people illegal.

No way. If there's this much fuss over ONE thing, the nation would be in uproar if anything else was wanted to be banned, and it would not go through.

 

[Gunny]

Okay, so it's symbolic.



But umm wait, you just said it was symbolic; now you're saying it's an actual act of violence?

I wasn't aware symbolic and violence were mutually exclusive. The act is violent, and it is symbolic. Pretty simple math.

It's a symbolic act which isn't anywhere near as dangerous to the US government as say, writing a persuasive anti-government article. That's because an op-ed piece in your local paper might actually influence voters, whereas burning a flag instantly marginalizes you as a kook not worth listening to. Has a flag burner ever gained an increasing number of followers, who then turned out to the voting booths? No. In fact, I'm trying really hard to think of the last time I saw an american flag burner on TV, american citizens I mean.

If we're going to ban anything in the name of protecting the government (that's what you mean by "this Nation" I assume--treating the government and the nation as though they were the same), we really need to start with anti-government speeches, or at least speeches that are critical of the constitution, the foundation of the government itself.

One of the better tries I've seen by someone trying to corner me into saying I'm all about censoring freedom of expression.

An op-ed falls within the framework of voicing dissent in a proper forum, agree with it or not.

Burning a flag is ACTING, not voicing, and the sidewalk is NOT a proper forum, I don't care what activists think about it.

If the purpose of the op-ed is to change votes, it is just subversive propaganda, not "voicing dissent." Voicing dissent is addressing grievances with the government TO the government.

I haven't seen ANYWHERE in the Constitution where it says extremist idiots are allowed to do whatever the Hell they want if it isn't strictly prohibited by the Constitution.

Then again, people use to apply common sense and logic to their actions.

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

An op-ed falls within the framework of voicing dissent in a proper forum, agree with it or not.

Burning a flag is ACTING, not voicing, and the sidewalk is NOT a proper forum, I don't care what activists think about it.

Who gets to decide which forums are proper and which aren't? Should we ban flag burning, but allow Koran and Bible burning? Those are "acting" too. Surely burning a bible is more offensive than burning a flag? What about cross burning?

I agree that a sidewalk is not a proper forum for flag burning, mainly due to the fire code. It should be restricted to private property. Of course if I had my way, there wouldn't be much of any public property, and private road and sidewalk owners would decide if they want to allow protestors and flag burners, but that's a different thread.

If the purpose of the op-ed is to change votes, it is just subversive propaganda, not "voicing dissent." Voicing dissent is addressing grievances with the government TO the government.

Should peaceful-but-subversive propaganda be allowed?

I haven't seen ANYWHERE in the Constitution where it says extremist idiots are allowed to do whatever the Hell they want if it isn't strictly prohibited by the Constitution.

Then again, people use to apply common sense and logic to their actions.

The constitution isn't a document which lays out a list of what you may do, or a document which states that the government may do as it pleases except for X, Y, and Z. It's a document of enumerated powers, where the federal government is allowed a short list of things which it may do, and nothing more. And deciding what constitutes acceptable expression is not on that list. Granted, this principle has been increasingly ignored for 70+ years, but that's what it actually says.

 

[007]

There was the recent case of a German dude who got jailed for making and selling toilet paper with the Koran on it. I thought it was wrong, that if he wants to express himself that way, who cares? But if you make one offensive thing illegal, like flag burning it opens the door for making a lot of other things which are offensive to some people illegal.

There's lots of debate in the world about religon. No one can prove there's a god. Most religons as Christianty is, is faith based. Unlike the American flag, which is a tangible symbol of this country you can hold and see. Our flag holds the blood of everyone that has fought for it, and died for it. It's our one and only flag, and I just feel it deserves protection from acts of desecration by zealots and fanatics.

I think anyone who burns the American flag, IN America, shouldn't be allowed to be here. Burning the American flag IN America should carry deportation, to say Iraq. Stand in the middle of Baghdad and burn the Iraqi flag, and see what happens.

 

[Redhots]

Would you have a problem with someone walking up to your mom, standing directly in her face, and calling her a filthy little C*#%-sucking, slut?

You shouldn't. After all, freedom of speech.

(Don't misunderstand. I'm making a point. I am not saying anything disparaging aginst your family. Simply making a point)

What point is that? That the American flag is the same thing as a living human being?

No i'm sure that isn't it.

I think what you want to ask is if I understand that some people get very upset about flag burning because the flag represents for them something important, just like I might view my mother as something important to me.

I understand that.

Now this bit about why I shouldn't be upset "because its just free speach"... I never said anywhere that people don't have the right to be offended by flag burning, or even that they shouldn't. I also said that it doesn't upset me because really its just a childish act, a group of strangers throwing a temper tantrum.

All I did was try to add some perspective to the thread about how other people might view the flag.

And what kind of responses do I get?

You're a pathetic liberal pile of shit. Anyone who would stand by and watch the American flag be burnt, AND NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT, needs his skull caved in.

Anyone who advocates physical violence against another person because that person "attacked" an inamimet ojbect (an object that they own) is a little unhinged in the head or needs to grow up.

What does bother me is when people advocate violence against someone engaging in that behaviour.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

One demensional my ass you fucking prick. Take your flag burning liberal crap to the D.U. We don't need your liberal contemptuous swagger here.

The only kind of politics you want to talk is liberal politics, and screw anybody that disagrees with you.

Fuck off jackass.

Sounds to me that you are the one who doesn't wish to respect the views of others. Liberal politics are politics too. Is this a conservative message board? The welcome page says otherwise.

 

[007]

Anyone who advocates physical violence against another person because that person "attacked" an inamimet ojbect (an object that they own) is a little unhinged in the head or needs to grow up.

What does bother me is when people advocate violence against someone engaging in that behaviour.

That's my opinion. I couldn't give a shit less how you feel about it.

 

[007]

Sounds to me that you are the one who doesn't wish to respect the views of others. Liberal politics are politics too. Is this a conservative message board? The welcome page says otherwise.

I don't respect liberals. So no, I don't respect his views.

You'll find that the majority here are conservatives.

 

[Semper Fi]

That's my opinion. I couldn't give a shit less how you feel about it.

Rarely do I advocate violence on a personal level, but anything against America and what she stands for is a whole new ball game. I'm with ya on this one Pale Rider.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

I'm all for freedom Nuc, but I believe sometimes you have to draw the line somewhere, and when it comes to our flag, burning it is over the line, in my opinion.

Now you talking like a Democrat. The Democrat Party is all for restricting the rights the American people. They'd be glad to have you.



"You know the one thing that's wrong with this country? Everyone gets a chance to have their fair say."
President William Clinton addressing the people of Philadelphia, May 28, 1993 in the Courtyard, City Hall, Philadelphia, PA