'Fight them over there vs. over here' a false choice

[Article 15]

Nobody incited hatred amongst the Islamic extremists. Their hatred begins and ends with them. And it is, after all, their sworn duty to conquer and kill Christians and any non-Muslim nation.

Likewise, we never incited hatred amongst the Japanese.

You don't think all the bombings, interventions, sanctions, and our military presence in their countries had anything to do with why they don't like us?

Of course not.

Why would they care about such trivial things?

They hate us because we can choose between Coke and Pepsi. Duh.

 

[elvis]

The idiot GoP simply adopted the FDR/Truman thing about being world police and now they can't let go.
Why do we have to 'fight them' anywhere?
I find I really don't care who runs Iran as long as they leave me alone.

Sounds like the attitude most Americans had just before WWII.

And what did the US get out of WWII, besides killing nearly half a million americans?

How exactly was supporting Stalin better then defeating Hitler?

What was the good benifit for supporting a fascist thug like Chiang Kai Shek?

How did the US benifit by prolonging the two biggest slave empires in the world, the UK and France?

The USA did the heavy lifting, but for what?

What did the US get out of WWII? She became the world economic power. Supporting Chiang Kai Shek would have guaranteed the US access to China's markets had he been victorious over Mao. Many historians think FDR provoked Japan into war because the Chinese markets were the most prized in the world and Japan was beating us to the punch.
UK and France's empires crumbled because of World War II.

 

[elvis]

The idiot GoP simply adopted the FDR/Truman thing about being world police and now they can't let go.
Why do we have to 'fight them' anywhere?
I find I really don't care who runs Iran as long as they leave me alone.

Sounds like the attitude most Americans had just before WWII.

Most Americans, not counting the government whose "neutrality" vastly favored the Allies.

Good point. Giving cheap loans to China and trading destroyers to England for eight European air bases lets you know that FDR was far from neutral.

 

[AllieBaba]

Given our wide open borders the whole 'Fight them over there vs. over here' thing makes me chuckle.

And should make us all feel good about fighting them over there. If they aren't bombing us here now, as they profess (and have proven) they want to do, obviously the strategy works.

The people in Iraq, and now Iran, want a peaceful and democratic government which honors human rights.

I know, that's a terrible thing. But still, as the (as of today) #1 superpower in the world it is rather our job to support them in their attainment of it.

Sad but true. But cheer up, perhaps we will be knocked off our repugnant superpower throne and be replaced by China....or Iran.....perhaps even Russia.

 

[elvis]

Because had we not done so The odds are better than even that Hitler wins. And Patton was right as soon as we were done with Hitler we should have just headed East.

A 'Hitler win' is the same as a Stalin win.

The only difference is the Russians hid the bodies better.

There were many in America, including Harry Truman who celebrated the idea of fascists killing communists (in regards to the war between Russia and Germany, 1941)

 

[AllieBaba]

Nobody incited hatred amongst the Islamic extremists. Their hatred begins and ends with them. And it is, after all, their sworn duty to conquer and kill Christians and any non-Muslim nation.

Likewise, we never incited hatred amongst the Japanese.

You don't think all the bombings, interventions, sanctions, and our military presence in their countries had anything to do with why they don't like us?

No, and neither would you if you knew a tiny shitball about the history of Islam.

 

[editec]

We're going about this terrorist threat all wrong in my opinion.

America is not about to be invaded by Alqaeda.

The fight them there or fight them here slogan is as dumb as everything else the NEo-cons had been selling us.

 

[Gurdari]

The idiot GoP simply adopted the FDR/Truman thing about being world police and now they can't let go.
Why do we have to 'fight them' anywhere?
I find I really don't care who runs Iran as long as they leave me alone.

Sounds like the attitude most Americans had just before WWII.

and during WW2... until the early 1940s

Well Al-qaeda decided to fight us over here, and we of course stayed over here because that's where they fighted us.

 

[geauxtohell]

Esoteric constitutional arguements aside, the "fight them over there so we don't fight them here" talking point makes no tactical, strategic, or operational sense when not dealing with a conventional enemy that is tied to a governmental infrastructure and populace that supports it.

We are dealing with a de-centralized group of individuals that can't be suppressed or contained by putting boots on the ground in another country.

The fact that the public bought this bogus talking point that the Bush Administration shilled, shows how ignorant people are of the nature of the threat we face.

We can't simply ignore islamic extremism, but using a conventional war to try and stop terrorism is like trying to do brain surgery with a mallet.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Nobody incited hatred amongst the Islamic extremists. Their hatred begins and ends with them. And it is, after all, their sworn duty to conquer and kill Christians and any non-Muslim nation.

Likewise, we never incited hatred amongst the Japanese.

You don't think all the bombings, interventions, sanctions, and our military presence in their countries had anything to do with why they don't like us?

No, and neither would you if you knew a tiny shitball about the history of Islam.

Well I'm afraid that ignores reality. You inspire people to hate you when you bomb their country and kill friends, family, and countrymen. Or when sanctions imposed on a country kill hundreds of thousands of people. Or when you militarily occupy their holy lands or throw out their elected leaders for repressive regimes.

 

[elvis]

You don't think all the bombings, interventions, sanctions, and our military presence in their countries had anything to do with why they don't like us?

No, and neither would you if you knew a tiny shitball about the history of Islam.

Well I'm afraid that ignores reality. You inspire people to hate you when you bomb their country and kill friends, family, and countrymen. Or when sanctions imposed on a country kill hundreds of thousands of people. Or when you militarily occupy their holy lands or throw out their elected leaders for repressive regimes.

I don't think those things were what motivated al qaeda, though.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

No, and neither would you if you knew a tiny shitball about the history of Islam.

Well I'm afraid that ignores reality. You inspire people to hate you when you bomb their country and kill friends, family, and countrymen. Or when sanctions imposed on a country kill hundreds of thousands of people. Or when you militarily occupy their holy lands or throw out their elected leaders for repressive regimes.

I don't think those things were what motivated al qaeda, though.

Osama has stated that those were among his motivations. However, there are always going to be those who simply hate the United States for no reason, but you give them potential allies when you give them bread-and-butter issues they can use to recruit others.

 

[elvis]

Well I'm afraid that ignores reality. You inspire people to hate you when you bomb their country and kill friends, family, and countrymen. Or when sanctions imposed on a country kill hundreds of thousands of people. Or when you militarily occupy their holy lands or throw out their elected leaders for repressive regimes.

I don't think those things were what motivated al qaeda, though.

Osama has stated that those were among his motivations. However, there are always going to be those who simply hate the United States for no reason, but you give them potential allies when you give them bread-and-butter issues they can use to recruit others.

What did bin Laden say was his reasoning? That we had occupied Saudi? What would happen if Saddam controlled the Arabian Peninsula?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I don't think those things were what motivated al qaeda, though.

Osama has stated that those were among his motivations. However, there are always going to be those who simply hate the United States for no reason, but you give them potential allies when you give them bread-and-butter issues they can use to recruit others.

What did bin Laden say was his reasoning? That we had occupied Saudi? What would happen if Saddam controlled the Arabian Peninsula?

That was one of his reasons. He saw our military presence there as disrespecting Islam, and he also didn't like that we support the Saudi Arabian government which he sees as repressive. I'm not sure I understand the Saddam question, but Osama and Saddam were not allies to begin with.

 

[elvis]

Osama has stated that those were among his motivations. However, there are always going to be those who simply hate the United States for no reason, but you give them potential allies when you give them bread-and-butter issues they can use to recruit others.

What did bin Laden say was his reasoning? That we had occupied Saudi? What would happen if Saddam controlled the Arabian Peninsula?

That was one of his reasons. He saw our military presence there as disrespecting Islam, and he also didn't like that we support the Saudi Arabian government which he sees as repressive. I'm not sure I understand the Saddam question, but Osama and Saddam were not allies to begin with.

It would follow that your opinion would be we should have pulled out of Saudi Arabia because bin Laden listed it as his reasons and because you don't advocate foreign intervention.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

What did bin Laden say was his reasoning? That we had occupied Saudi? What would happen if Saddam controlled the Arabian Peninsula?

That was one of his reasons. He saw our military presence there as disrespecting Islam, and he also didn't like that we support the Saudi Arabian government which he sees as repressive. I'm not sure I understand the Saddam question, but Osama and Saddam were not allies to begin with.

It would follow that your opinion would be we should have pulled out of Saudi Arabia because bin Laden listed it as his reasons and because you don't advocate foreign intervention.

Well we should never have been there in the first place, but that about sums it up.

 

[elvis]

That was one of his reasons. He saw our military presence there as disrespecting Islam, and he also didn't like that we support the Saudi Arabian government which he sees as repressive. I'm not sure I understand the Saddam question, but Osama and Saddam were not allies to begin with.

It would follow that your opinion would be we should have pulled out of Saudi Arabia because bin Laden listed it as his reasons and because you don't advocate foreign intervention.

Well we should never have been there in the first place, but that about sums it up.

so you'd be fine with Saddam Hussein controlling 75 percent of the world's oil?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

It would follow that your opinion would be we should have pulled out of Saudi Arabia because bin Laden listed it as his reasons and because you don't advocate foreign intervention.

Well we should never have been there in the first place, but that about sums it up.

so you'd be fine with Saddam Hussein controlling 75 percent of the world's oil?

How would this have happened?

 

[elvis]

Well we should never have been there in the first place, but that about sums it up.

so you'd be fine with Saddam Hussein controlling 75 percent of the world's oil?

How would this have happened?

He wasn't going to stop at Kuwait. he was going to take over Saudi Arabia and probably the entire peninsula. That must be close to 75 percent.

 

[Ravi]

Well we should never have been there in the first place, but that about sums it up.

Did you see this bit of news yesterday:

Yesterday, the National Security Archive released declassified FBI reports detailing both the bureau’s interrogations and “casual conversations” with former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein. According to the documents, Hussein told FBI agent George Piro (one of only a few agents who spoke Arabic) that he let the world believe he had weapons of mass destruction because he feared appearing weak to what he considered his country’s real threat, Iran:

Think Progress » Saddam Hussein Considered ‘Security Agreement’ With U.S. To Counter Threat From ‘Fanatics’ In Iran

Apparently there was no need to fight them at all.