Facing reality in Iraq

[Comrade]

What is Europe going to do? Condemn America in the UN for trying to deliver democracy in Iraq? This is war. What is the alternative? Full scale military invasion? Giving up? Re-flagged ships can be stopped at sea. The French will not choose combat with America. Oil exports flowing to others though pipelines can have transmission facilities destroyed. The fight to win democracy in Iraq is going to take far longer than Americans realize. If we do not do not halt the international help received by Iraqi insurgents, we (and the Iraqi people) will ultimately lose. This is the same battleground-logistics scenario that prolonged the Southeast Asia regional war for 25 years. It is the same scenario that caused the Soviet defeat in Afghanistan.

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But an expanded invasion strategy would be prerequisite upon a buildup of our national strategic oil reserves!

http://www.fe.doe.gov/programs/reserves/spr/spr-facts.html

The Strategic Petroleum Reserve is a U.S. Government complex of four sites created in deep underground salt caverns along the Texas and Louisiana Gulf Coast that hold emergency supplies of crude oil.

Inventory
Current inventory: Click to open inventory update window
Highest inventory - The SPR is now at its highest level and continues to grow as additional crude oil is received.
Current storage capacity - 727 million barrels

http://www2.spr.doe.gov/DIR/SilverStream/Pages/pgDailyInventoryReportViewDOE_new.html

Current Inventory

674.2 million bbls

To be Delivered

12.3 million bbls

Hmmmm.....

 

[Comrade]

What do you mean? We can afford it and last far longer than the Saudis. Do you think that they would choose economic suicide rather than control the Wahabis?

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No. But I still don't think the Saudis can both control the Wahabbis and continue to assist us in any meaningful way. I think the time has come for their regime to fall... the new government arising from this inevitable revolution will determine the fate of the entire region.

 

[onedomino]

But such a strategy would be prerequisite upon a buildup of our national strategic oil reserves!

I do not think that the strategic oil reserve would provide enough help. There would be temporary oil shortages and associated distress if the Saudis actually chose economic suicide. But if they were convinced we were serious, I do not think they would choose their own destruction. Do we really want to win democracy in Iraq? Or are we just looking for an exit strategy?

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[Comrade]

I do not think that the strategic oil reserve would provide enough help. There would be temporary oil shortages and associated distress if the Saudis actually chose economic suicide. But if they were convinced we were serious, I do not think they would choose their own destruction. Do we really want to win democracy in Iraq? Or are we just looking for an exit strategy?

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Win Democracy.

 

[onedomino]

But I still don't think the Saudis can both control the Wahabbis and continue to assist us in any meaningful way.

I believe that they can disrupt enough of the poison cash flow that Iraqi democracy will have a better chance to get off the ground. We must block the flow of money to the Iraqi Bathists operating with impunity in Syria, and the Iraqi insurgents in the combat zones.

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[NATO AIR]

List of Responses, please forgive

- Young Assad does want to reform his nation. I do understand Baathists are intertwined in nearly everything in Syria, but by eliminating the old guard of Baathist leaders who stand most in the way of reform and a more competetive society, Assad and us can both win. I often wonder if he is even in control at this point, to risk open war with the US over the continued support of oppression in Lebanon and the insurgency in Iraq, the old guard of his father must be in control. They're sipping the Kool-Aid, the rest of the Baathists are more than likely pragmatists who wouldn't mind a break from problems with the US and Israel.

- India is quite ready to make a peace deal over Kashmir, and to an extent, so is Musharraf. Sadly, a compromise over Kashmir would only further ignite the flames of the fundamentalists and facists who want him dead there. In the long run though, a final peace over Kashmir would remove a major stumbling block for both nations on their path to prosperity and peace. Pakistan cannot have a democratic, open society and be prosperous with a continued insurgency in Kashmir. It must be ended, now and forever, and then we can see real progress made in Pakistan, and in India as a bonus.

- The Saudis are a huge problem, I do wonder if what Onedomino is talking about could work, because the current regime and the fundamentalists fighting it are both quite dangerous to the US and its interests, as well as to people in the region.

- We've got to help civil society grow and reform in Iran, and democratize young (and the disillusioned old) Iranians, enabling them to challenge the mullahs. We cannot sit idly by and hope for sanctions to do the trick.

 

[Adam's Apple]

We need to spin the news our way, even if we have to start our own Arab news network.

A novel idea! And how about instituting a Radio Free Iraq? We could do more to counter Al Jazeera's effect in the Arab world than is currently being done.

 

[onedomino]

A novel idea! And how about instituting a Radio Free Iraq? We could do more to counter Al Jazeera's effect in the Arab world than is currently being done.

This idea has been in operation since February: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,118600,00.html

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[Adam's Apple]

Thanks. I missed that story. Any links available on how successful this radio station has or has not been since its inception in February?

 

[Fmr jarhead]

I would encourage anyone to buy the book America's Secret War to get an in depth analysis of this discussion we are having.

There are reasons we went in to Iraq that have never seen the light of day, that make perfect sense, but the administration did not think we were savvy enough to understand (and I think members of this forum are an exception...most here are very intelligent and more aware than "Joe Average")

Part of the reason we went in to Iraq was to push the Saudis in to confronting the Wahabbis (sp), since the Saudi's did not think we had the resolve to stomach the long term losses that we would encounter facing the insurgency that would arise supported by the radical Islamist al Qaeda sympathizers,

The latest explosions in Saudia Arabia are a result of the House of Saud finally getting the message from the radicals that their "support" of the infidels will not be tolerated, and we will now see over the next 18 months a fight for the very existence of the roayl family in Saudia Arabia.

It is going to get murkier before the water clears, in my opinion, and our resolve must come from within, unless al Qaeda or it's sympathizers can coordinate another attack on US soil to rally the slumbering giant, again.

 

[Doc Holiday]

Not really a load of crap, as you put it, but an honest look and opinion from an analytical mind that has been right more often than naught.

Your suggestions as to how we get out of Iraq are noble, but it is not the end game the US truly seeks. We are in the middle east to stay, my friend, and we need to minimize our losses in the most horrific and shocking way that we can, so that these medieval thugs understand that we are not going to back down!

I think Afghanistan has already shown them that we don't back down. What else do we need to show them? We need to show them that we aren't interested in an occupation, since that's what history has shown them that Westerners do. Quit thinking like an American and put yourself in the Arab shoes, maybe you'll do better with your analysis.

 

[Doc Holiday]

I would encourage anyone to buy the book America's Secret War to get an in depth analysis of this discussion we are having.

There are reasons we went in to Iraq that have never seen the light of day, that make perfect sense, but the administration did not think we were savvy enough to understand (and I think members of this forum are an exception...most here are very intelligent and more aware than "Joe Average")

Part of the reason we went in to Iraq was to push the Saudis in to confronting the Wahabbis (sp), since the Saudi's did not think we had the resolve to stomach the long term losses that we would encounter facing the insurgency that would arise supported by the radical Islamist al Qaeda sympathizers,

The latest explosions in Saudia Arabia are a result of the House of Saud finally getting the message from the radicals that their "support" of the infidels will not be tolerated, and we will now see over the next 18 months a fight for the very existence of the roayl family in Saudia Arabia.

It is going to get murkier before the water clears, in my opinion, and our resolve must come from within, unless al Qaeda or it's sympathizers can coordinate another attack on US soil to rally the slumbering giant, again.

I agree that the Saudis need to confront the Wahabbis, though I'm not sure that the US invasion of Iraq would make that happen. Since the Wahabbis are the power behind the Saudi throne and the reason the House of Saud became King, it will be difficult for the Saudi Royal family to make the break.

 

[Adam's Apple]

I would encourage anyone to buy the book America's Secret War to get an in depth analysis of this discussion we are having.

Thanks for bringing this book to our attention. I have put it on my "to read" list. I received a gift card from Barnes & Noble for Xmas, so this will be a good way to use it. I really enjoy reading books like this that give you the "dope" you would not ordinarily get from daily news releases.

 

[Fmr jarhead]

I think Afghanistan has already shown them that we don't back down. What else do we need to show them? We need to show them that we aren't interested in an occupation, since that's what history has shown them that Westerners do. Quit thinking like an American and put yourself in the Arab shoes, maybe you'll do better with your analysis.

Afghanistan has not "shown" or proven any resolve of the Americans to the Islamic fundamentalists, at all. WE have over 2 decades worth of examples of how resolved we are to defeat their cause....going back to the hostages taken in Iran in the late 70's. (if you would like me to script the examples of how we have cut and run so many times, I would be happy to do so....beginning with Reagan pulling our Marines out of Beirut, after being slaughtered in their sleep)

Unlike you, I am certain that we (the modern civilized world) will indeed become a presence in the middle east....and the perception will remain that we are occupiers, as long as it takes to re-educate the generation of radical followers of bin Laden and Abdullah Azzam.

To ask me to not think like an American is about as moronic as asking you to speak intelligently. It is an impossibility for each of us. (not really trying to insult you, directly, just trying to make a point)

 

[Fmr jarhead]

I agree that the Saudis need to confront the Wahabbis, though I'm not sure that the US invasion of Iraq would make that happen. Since the Wahabbis are the power behind the Saudi throne and the reason the House of Saud became King, it will be difficult for the Saudi Royal family to make the break.

The house of suad had every opportunity at the run up to the invasion of Iraq to back the US, but declined to do so, not only because of internal pressure from their radical element, but also because they did not think we would do it without them.....and "stir the pot," so to speak.

They are beginning to reap the rewards of sowing the seeds of duplicity within their society.

Have a nice day.

 

[Doc Holiday]

Unlike you, I am certain that we (the modern civilized world) will indeed become a presence in the middle east....and the perception will remain that we are occupiers, as long as it takes to re-educate the generation of radical followers of bin Laden and Abdullah Azzam.

Where did I say that we wouldn't become a presence in the Middle East? If you would take the time to read and quit being such an egotistical jackass, maybe you would understand what I'm trying to say.

To ask me to not think like an American is about as moronic as asking you to speak intelligently. It is an impossibility for each of us. (not really trying to insult you, directly, just trying to make a point)

Thank you for showing everyone why Marines are known as the stupidest part of the armed forces. And yes, I was trying to insult you directly.

 

[Fmr jarhead]

Where did I say that we wouldn't become a presence in the Middle East? If you would take the time to read and quit being such an egotistical jackass, maybe you would understand what I'm trying to say.



Thank you for showing everyone why Marines are known as the stupidest part of the armed forces. And yes, I was trying to insult you directly.

This must have confused me when you said,

We need to show them that we aren't interested in an occupation, since that's what history has shown them that Westerners do.

How do you recommend we "show" them we are not interested in occupation, if not by leaving the country where our troops are stationed?

Resorting to insults must mean you have no more substance to offer. I accept your apologies, in advance, for such chioldish, and immature behavior while trying to conduct an intelligent conversation with adults, and others who really want to try and expand their horizons.

(I would gladly sit down with you and an IQ test any day.....)

 

[Doc Holiday]

Resorting to insults must mean you have no more substance to offer. I accept your apologies, in advance, for such chioldish, and immature behavior while trying to conduct an intelligent conversation with adults, and others who really want to try and expand their horizons.

(I would gladly sit down with you and an IQ test any day.....)

Weren't you the one that stated I was too moronic to speak intelligently? So, since you are flinging insults, don't start crying about them when someone flings them back.

 

[Patriot]

To ask me to not think like an American is about as moronic as asking you to speak intelligently. It is an impossibility for each of us. (not really trying to insult you, directly, just trying to make a point)

Obviously YOU are the moron for if you can NOT put yourself in someone elses shoes. You are headed for a life of misery and stupidity since you will know NOTHING about your enemy NOR your friends.


Oh and fraging someone cause you dont like to be called names means you have lost the battle.





*Note* I am being concillitory here as anyone who knows me knows I am about ready to unleash.

 

[Patriot]

Unlike you, I am certain that we (the modern civilized world) will indeed become a presence in the middle east....and the perception will remain that we are occupiers, as long as it takes to re-educate the generation of radical followers of bin Laden and Abdullah Azzam.

What part of NO ONE can RE-EDUCATE fuckin EVIL DONT you get?