Evolution

[MissileMan]

(Genesis 6:17) I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.

(Genesis 7:11) In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.

(Genesis 7:17-23) For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. 18 The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet. , [c] 21 Every living thing that moved on the earth perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.

Ahh, when I hear volcanic, I'm thinking lava and ash. When you say volcanic, you are referring to springs.

 

[MissileMan]

P.S. This link also shows that cave drawing of the sauropod that I have been talking about.

And laughably enough, this same link claims that Noah had 2 of all of the dinosaurs on the ark with him. So much for reliable.

As for the drawing of the dinosaur on the cave wall, do you know for a fact that it wasn't a rendition based on a fossilized skeleton that had been unearthed by a landslide or similar event? There are too few such cave paintings to support the idea that man and dinosaurs shared the earth.

Lastly, the stories of dragons could be nothing more than encounters with modern reptiles, like crocodiles, pythons, cobras, etc. that have been embellished in the same manner as fish stories.

 

[Nienna]

Ahh, when I hear volcanic, I'm thinking lava and ash. When you say volcanic, you are referring to springs.

expulsions from the depth of the planet. Water, perhaps some molten ore. Probably from the deep rift in the Atlantic.

 

[Nienna]

And laughably enough, this same link claims that Noah had 2 of all of the dinosaurs on the ark with him. So much for reliable.

Why is this laughable?

As for the drawing of the dinosaur on the cave wall, do you know for a fact that it wasn't a rendition based on a fossilized skeleton that had been unearthed by a landslide or similar event? There are too few such cave paintings to support the idea that man and dinosaurs shared the earth.

No one can travel back in time and personally ask the artist what his subject was. However, I doubt it was a skeleton. It seems to be a solid mass, not a bony outline.

Lastly, the stories of dragons could be nothing more than encounters with modern reptiles, like crocodiles, pythons, cobras, etc. that have been embellished in the same manner as fish stories.

Once again, we cannot know for certain what exact animals were described in these encounters. However, the people who recorded these events give statements which include measurements, dates, and other details. The first, John of Damascus was writing specifically to debunk popular horror stories of magical creatures with facts about the real creatures.

 

[MissileMan]

Why is this laughable?

You can't refute the existence of the dinosaurs and the evidence that their fossils are millions of years old, so you arbitrarily dismiss carbon dating and toss the dinosaurs onto Noah's Ark as an afterthought and say, "See, it fits the description of what happened in Genesis".

No one can travel back in time and personally ask the artist what his subject was. However, I doubt it was a skeleton. It seems to be a solid mass, not a bony outline.

Ever see an artist's rendition of what they believe dinosaurs looked like? They didn't use a polaroid picture.

 

[Nienna]

You can't refute the existence of the dinosaurs...

Would never want to.

... and the evidence that their fossils are millions of years old, so you arbitrarily dismiss carbon dating...

The dismissal of carbon dating is hardly arbitrary. There are serious flaws with the assumptions behind radiometric dating processes. Simply described, specimens contain isotopes (parent isotopes) which decay into other isotopes (daughter isotopes). Scientists measure the concentrations of both isotopes to determine how long the specimen has been decaying. Thus, they arrive at approximate ages.
1) Scientists assume that there was no daughter isotope (DI) present to begin with, or that the amount of the PI/DI is known.
This is an unwise assumption to make, since the starting conditions have not been observed.
2) Scientists assume that the decay rates have always been constant, or that all inconsistencies are known.
Many things can affect the decay rates of isotopes, including industrialization as well as natural phenomena. Once again, all the conditions affecting the specimen have usually not been observed.
3) Scientists assume that the systems affecting the specimen have always been closed, so that no parent or daughter isotopes have been lost or added.
We do not find closed systems in natural settings. Specimens are almost always open to outside influences.

Also, we have examples of specimens of known age (their formation was observed), and yet the radiometric dates were off by thousands or even millions of years.

As far as refuting evidence of their being millions of years old, the bones themselves can do that. Several unfossilized specimens have been found, including some with soft tissue. Bones can fossilize in only hundreds of years. Soft tissue cannot survive millions of years. It would decay.

...and toss the dinosaurs onto Noah's Ark as an afterthought and say, "See, it fits the description of what happened in Genesis".

It wasn't an afterthought. (Genesis 6:20) Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. I assume that "every kind" would include dinosaurs.

Ever see an artist's rendition of what they believe dinosaurs looked like? They didn't use a polaroid picture.

Okay....

 

[gaffer]

God is infinate and doesn't exist it the constraints of time. Therefore what is a billion years to him? If he wants to creat life he simply sets up the conditions for life to exist and makes life. A simple celled life that he can then, over time, shape into as many forms as he wishes. Eventually forming a self aware intellegent species. So you have God, you have creation and you have evolution.

Evolution is not something that can be viewed in a lifetime. That makes it more difficult to prove evolution. The closest we can come is to watch small organisms such as bacteria that develope immunity to the anti-bodies developed to kill them. That is a process of evolution. Its scientific evidence. The only other evidence comes from fossils and geography.

Creationism is purely a belief. There is no fact to base anything on. There are scores of creation stories for all religions. They were all told or written by men of that religion. Its the ancients way of explaining how things came to be, when they actually had no clue. The book of genisis was written by the hebrews to explain the creation of the world. They had no concept of space, the sun, planets or even other parts of the world. Yet creationist want to take it for granted that they were absolute in their depiction of creation.

The problem I see with the creation story is that it puts God into a position of weakness. He worked for 6 days and rested on the seventh. Was he tired? Or was it that everyone should have a day of rest from their labors so lets have God rest for a day? Shows a human trait, not a God trait. If there's no measure of time. No people to note the passing of time. Then how do they know the world was made in 6 days? God told them is not an answer. It ranks right up there with the devil made me do it, or I drown my five children because God told me they were evil.

On to the begats. Here all these fellows lived to be hundreds of years old. No mention of whether their wives lived as long. Did you know that their are two parts of the human body that never stop growing. The nose and the ears. Think what these guys would have looked like. The snoz on Mathuzala must have been astronomical. Of course after Noah all of a sudden men didn't live that long anymore. hmmmm, evolution? Noah built an ark, took two of every unclean animal and seven of every clean animal. Considering the millions of species of animals throughout the world that is quite an accomplishment. Not to mention they all got off on the same mountain in Turkey. So how did the platapuss get to Austrailia from there? One creationist actually told me there were only a few species of animals and that after they got off the ark they "evolved". woohoo!

The rest of the bible is either factual accounts or morality stories, depending on how you view it. But the book of genisis is pure myth. Like all the other creation stories.

 

[Gunny]

The problem I see with the creation story is that it puts God into a position of weakness. He worked for 6 days and rested on the seventh. Was he tired? Or was it that everyone should have a day of rest from their labors so lets have God rest for a day?

Dude, the NFL was on CBS ............

 

[Gunny]

God is infinate and doesn't exist it the constraints of time. Therefore what is a billion years to him? If he wants to creat life he simply sets up the conditions for life to exist and makes life. A simple celled life that he can then, over time, shape into as many forms as he wishes. Eventually forming a self aware intellegent species. So you have God, you have creation and you have evolution.

Evolution is not something that can be viewed in a lifetime. That makes it more difficult to prove evolution. The closest we can come is to watch small organisms such as bacteria that develope immunity to the anti-bodies developed to kill them. That is a process of evolution. Its scientific evidence. The only other evidence comes from fossils and geography.

Creationism is purely a belief. There is no fact to base anything on. There are scores of creation stories for all religions. They were all told or written by men of that religion. Its the ancients way of explaining how things came to be, when they actually had no clue. The book of genisis was written by the hebrews to explain the creation of the world. They had no concept of space, the sun, planets or even other parts of the world. Yet creationist want to take it for granted that they were absolute in their depiction of creation.

The problem I see with the creation story is that it puts God into a position of weakness. He worked for 6 days and rested on the seventh. Was he tired? Or was it that everyone should have a day of rest from their labors so lets have God rest for a day? Shows a human trait, not a God trait. If there's no measure of time. No people to note the passing of time. Then how do they know the world was made in 6 days? God told them is not an answer. It ranks right up there with the devil made me do it, or I drown my five children because God told me they were evil.

On to the begats. Here all these fellows lived to be hundreds of years old. No mention of whether their wives lived as long. Did you know that their are two parts of the human body that never stop growing. The nose and the ears. Think what these guys would have looked like. The snoz on Mathuzala must have been astronomical. Of course after Noah all of a sudden men didn't live that long anymore. hmmmm, evolution? Noah built an ark, took two of every unclean animal and seven of every clean animal. Considering the millions of species of animals throughout the world that is quite an accomplishment. Not to mention they all got off on the same mountain in Turkey. So how did the platapuss get to Austrailia from there? One creationist actually told me there were only a few species of animals and that after they got off the ark they "evolved". woohoo!

The rest of the bible is either factual accounts or morality stories, depending on how you view it. But the book of genisis is pure myth. Like all the other creation stories.

If you include scientific theories of origin in that, I can at least respect your opinion while I disagree with it.

 

[Nuc]

Noah built an ark, took two of every unclean animal and seven of every clean animal. Considering the millions of species of animals throughout the world that is quite an accomplishment. Not to mention they all got off on the same mountain in Turkey. So how did the platapuss get to Austrailia from there? One creationist actually told me there were only a few species of animals and that after they got off the ark they "evolved". woohoo!

I asked this question of my sunday school teacher. The church asked my parents not to send me any more. That was my escape from X-ianity. They said I was bad for business. I figured any religion that was afraid of a 14 year old kid must be pretty weak.

 

[MissileMan]

The dismissal of carbon dating is hardly arbitrary. There are serious flaws with the assumptions behind radiometric dating processes. Simply described, specimens contain isotopes (parent isotopes) which decay into other isotopes (daughter isotopes). Scientists measure the concentrations of both isotopes to determine how long the specimen has been decaying. Thus, they arrive at approximate ages.
1) Scientists assume that there was no daughter isotope (DI) present to begin with, or that the amount of the PI/DI is known.
This is an unwise assumption to make, since the starting conditions have not been observed.
2) Scientists assume that the decay rates have always been constant, or that all inconsistencies are known.
Many things can affect the decay rates of isotopes, including industrialization as well as natural phenomena. Once again, all the conditions affecting the specimen have usually not been observed.
3) Scientists assume that the systems affecting the specimen have always been closed, so that no parent or daughter isotopes have been lost or added.
We do not find closed systems in natural settings. Specimens are almost always open to outside influences.

Like I said, arbitrary. Provide some links to studies by credible scientists that prove that carbon-dating doesn't work.

As far as refuting evidence of their being millions of years old, the bones themselves can do that. Several unfossilized specimens have been found, including some with soft tissue. Bones can fossilize in only hundreds of years. Soft tissue cannot survive millions of years. It would decay.

For giggles, I googled this and guess what I found? The only sites that claim this as truth are either religious or creation based. No major university, no world-renowned paleontologists, only Young-Earthers.

It wasn't an afterthought. (Genesis 6:20) Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. I assume that "every kind" would include dinosaurs.

But they weren't called dinosaurs, remember? You'd think something as remarkable as a dragon would rate a mention on the manifest. And not just one dragon, but thousands. Uh, no wait. It was only 2 dragons, and after the waters receded, they evolved into hundreds of species of dragons and went extinct all over the world in a couple thousand years.

 

[manu1959]

if you take the works of the bible as a litteral history book it makes it difficult to accept certain things.....jesus existed and dinosaurs existed.....why is it so difficult to accept both and marvel at the existence of dinosaurs and learn from the life and teachings of christ

 

[MissileMan]

if you take the works of the bible as a litteral history book it makes it difficult to accept certain things.....jesus existed and dinosaurs existed.....why is it so difficult to accept both and marvel at the existence of dinosaurs and learn from the life and teachings of christ

There are many who claim that the Bible is to be taken 100% literally until you ask a question that isn't, but should be, explained by it, and then they start making interpretations and excuses to account for the shortfalls.

 

[Variati0nal]

To god, 5 billion years could be like 7 days....

 

[manu1959]

There are many who claim that the Bible is to be taken 100% literally until you ask a question that isn't, but should be, explained by it, and then they start making interpretations and excuses to account for the shortfalls.

peole can chose what ever they like....if someone wants to treat the bible as a book of facts and historical events i have no problem with that.....every minister or priest that i have ever discused religion with taught me that the stories of the bible are to be learned from in the conext of how to deal with life....works for me...live and let live i always say

 

[Variati0nal]

I asked this question of my sunday school teacher. The church asked my parents not to send me any more. That was my escape from X-ianity. They said I was bad for business. I figured any religion that was afraid of a 14 year old kid must be pretty weak.

You really are an uneducated little kid. No wonder you thought that President Bush having an accent meant he was illiterate. You must have been dropped on the head when you were in the hospital as a baby. Your parents took you to church so they obviously tried to raise you right but your mental retardation overpowered anything they did right. Nucular instead Nuclear. He can give the order to use them, he doesn't have to say it correctly to be able to nuke your ass. You complain about so much stupid crap, you should move to russia. People like you don't deserve the liberties the U.S. gives to all its citizens.

 

[Nuc]

You really are an uneducated little kid. No wonder you thought that President Bush having an accent meant he was illiterate. You must have been dropped on the head when you were in the hospital as a baby. Your parents took you to church so they obviously tried to raise you right but your mental retardation overpowered anything they did right. Nucular instead Nuclear. He can give the order to use them, he doesn't have to say it correctly to be able to nuke your ass. You complain about so much stupid crap, you should move to russia. People like you don't deserve the liberties the U.S. gives to all its citizens.

You have a pretty low threshold of what a nukeable offense is! And what gives you the right to determine who is or is not entitled to citizenship? If you think it is the likes of you rather than the constitution that gives me the right to speak my mind, then you belong in Russia, not me.

 

[MissileMan]

peole can chose what ever they like....if someone wants to treat the bible as a book of facts and historical events i have no problem with that.....every minister or priest that i have ever discused religion with taught me that the stories of the bible are to be learned from in the conext of how to deal with life....works for me...live and let live i always say

No argument here that the Bible offers some good advice on how to interact with your fellow man. It's the literalists that I have a problem with. They want to throw reason and science and logic out the window, and teach schoolkids nonsense.

 

[-Cp]

No argument here that the Bible offers some good advice on how to interact with your fellow man. It's the literalists that I have a problem with. They want to throw reason and science and logic out the window, and teach schoolkids nonsense.

That's because you're assuming that science knows more than God does...

 

[GotZoom]

Waaaay too long to cut and past in a post; you'll have to go to the link.

Carbon Dating - http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/carbon_dating.asp

Dinosaurs - http://www.contenderministries.org/evolution/dinosaurs.php


From Dinosaurs - the Bible references a "dinosaur":

One of the oldest books of the Bible – Job – mentions creatures that were most likely dinosaurs. The book of Job was probably written around 2,000 years before Jesus was born. The Bible's best description of a dinosaur-like animal is recorded in Job chapter 40. "Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox. What strength he has in his loins, what power in the muscles of his belly! His tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are close-knit. His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like rods of iron. He ranks first among the works of God..."(Job 40:15-19) The behemoth were not afraid. They did not need to be; they were huge. Their tails were so long and strong that God compared them to cedars - one of the largest and most spectacular trees of the ancient world. Some Bible scholars think this passage refers to elephants or hippopotami. This is incongruent with the description though, as elephants and hippopotami have tails like ropes or cords, not like “cedars” as described in Job. The next chapter of Job talks about another huge, fierce animal – a sea monster named Leviathan. It was not a whale or crocodile, because the Hebrew language had other words to describe such animals. Leviathan may be a plesiosaur – a large, seagoing reptile that evolutionists say became extinct 60 million years before man evolved.