Do You Consider the Destruction of Israel a "Personal Tragedy?"

[JWBooth]

No more or less than I would the destruction of Greece, Chad, Surinam...

 

[georgephillip]

Israel was designed to guarantee equal rights to all of its citizens. In all countries, despite legal guarantees of equal rights, minorities often feel and sometimes are disadvantaged, and Israel is no exception here, but Israel has done a better job than most democracies in providing and protecting equal rights for its minorities. Not only is Arabic an official language of Israel and every Knesset since the founding of the state had Arab Israeli members, but Arab Israelis are better represented in proportion to their percentage of the population in the Knesset than African Americans are in the US Congress or than minorities are in the British or French parliaments.

Arab Israelis have been ministers in several Israeli governments, have risen to high ranks in the police and IDF and in many government ministries, have been ambassadors and have held seats on the Supreme Court. They are guaranteed by law seats on the boards of directors of government owned corporation in proportion to their numbers in the population.

No country is more vigilant in not only protecting equal rights for its minorities, but in trying to provide equal opportunities for them, and no country is more self critical of its failures in these areas. Because recent studies showed lower levels of academic achievement for most Arab Israelis who chose to attend Arab language schools, funding regulations have been changed so that in the future more money will be spent per capita on Arab Israeli school children than on other Israeli children. Because of a recent study that showed Arab Israelis are under represented in academia, Israel's colleges and universities now have outreach programs that attempt to entice qualified Arab Israelis to choose an academic career.

Israel has a distinctly Jewish character precisely because it is a democracy and has a large Jewish majority, just as the US has a distinctly Christian character because it is a democracy that has a large Christian majority. There is no rational basis for claiming Israel is not a democracy just because its sabbath is on Saturday.

The US doesn't encourage Christians from around the world to immigrate and attain citizenship based solely on religion.
The US doesn't distinguish between nationality and citizenship in the same way Israel does.
The US doesn't formalize different levels of citizenship as the Jewish state allegedly does:

"Class 'A' citizenship : Jews.

"Privileged access to the material resources of the State and the social as well as the welfare services of the State. Are able to utilize the 93 per cent of pre-1967 Israel, controlled by the Land Agency. Note that no-one can actually purchase the Agency land and that it is leased to Jews only.

"Class 'B' citizenship : Non Jews/Arabs.

"Taxpayers and citizens with voting rights. Are denied the right to utilize the 93 per cent of pre-1967 Israel controlled by the Land Agency. They are also denied equal access to water and social and welfare services. Are generally not permitted to serve in the military which means they are automatically denied the many social and welfare services available to those who complete compulsory (for Jews) military service.

"Class 'C' citizenship : Non Jews/Arabs.

"Taxpayers and citizens with voting rights, but classified as 'absentees'. Comprises some 200,000 persons. Are denied the right to utilize property in 93 per cent of pre-1967 Israel. They are also denied equal access to water and social and welfare services. They have also been denied all rights to their own property (lands, houses, corporations, shares, bank accounts, bank safes, etc.) that they owned until confiscated by the Jewish state. This theft was made 'legal' by the Absentees Property Law of 1950.

"Class 'D' citizenship : Non Jews/Arabs.

"Taxpayers, but without voting rights. Comprises some 3,000,000 persons. Are also denied the right to utilize or buy property anywhere in pre-1967 Israel. Have no access to social and welfare services. Many (mostly those who once lived in pre-1967 Israel) have had all their property confiscated by the Jewish state without compensation and have been forced to live in ghettos spread throughout two areas that today resemble concentration camps.

"Information From 'Israel: An Apartheid State' (Zed Books, London and New Jersey, 1987) by Uri Davis."

Israeli Apartheid.

Nonsense. There are no classes of citizens and all Israeli citizens have the same rights to lease state lands. Israeli laws and courts have held that discrimination on the basis race, ethnicity, religion, etc. is illegal. These are lies invented by people who understand that the facts do not support their irrational hatreds of Israel and Jews.

There's nothing irrational about hating people who are stealing your land and water and using your children for target practice.

Israel was never intended as a state for all its citizens; it was intended as a state where every Jewish individual across the planet would be a potential citizen. Two Israeli laws passed in 1950 included the Law of Return which defined boundaries for inclusion (every Jew has the right to immigrate) and the Absentee Property Law which defined who was left out.

"Under these laws, every Jew throughout the world is legally entitled to become a citizen of the state of Israel upon immigration into the country, while some two million people, the 1948 Palestinian Arabs and their descendants, who were exiled as a consequence of the 1948-9 and the 1967 wars, are denied the rights of citizenship.

"Nevertheless, their right of return is universally recognized in international law and in repeated UN resolutions (beginning with Resolution 194 (III), 11 December 1948). They clearly exist. Yet, they are defined in Israeli law as 'non-existent', and as 'absentees', and they are excluded by law from actual or potential citizenship in the Jewish state."

Israeli Apartheid.

 

[Ropey]

Israel is recreated existentially strong.

 

[georgephillip]

Israel is recreated existentially strong.

By whom?

"First, Zionism did not believe in the existence of God; the movement was secular, not religious...Zionism insisted that suffering in exile was a result of a minority status, not of sin.

"Zionism preached that the Jews must act on their own behalf to create their state in Zion, rather than wait till God did it for them...(Orr, The unJewish State, p.6)

"And yet, by every conventional criterion, the state of Israel is a theocracy.

"Civil marriage is not permitted under Israeli law, and marriage can be legally consecrated only by Rabbinical, Church or Shari'a courts.

"The same applies to divorce. Under Israeli law (Jurisdiction of Rabbinical Courts (Marriage and Divorce), 1953), religious courts are state courts and the religious judiciary (Rabbinical, Church and Shari'a) are paid by the state."

Israeli Apartheid.

 

[Ropey]

Israel is recreated existentially strong.

By whom?

"First, Zionism did not believe in the existence of God; the movement was secular, not religious...Zionism insisted that suffering in exile was a result of a minority status, not of sin.

"Zionism preached that the Jews must act on their own behalf to create their state in Zion, rather than wait till God did it for them...(Orr, The unJewish State, p.6)

"And yet, by every conventional criterion, the state of Israel is a theocracy.

"Civil marriage is not permitted under Israeli law, and marriage can be legally consecrated only by Rabbinical, Church or Shari'a courts.

"The same applies to divorce. Under Israeli law (Jurisdiction of Rabbinical Courts (Marriage and Divorce), 1953), religious courts are state courts and the religious judiciary (Rabbinical, Church and Shari'a) are paid by the state."

Israeli Apartheid.

Arabs, Christians, Druze, etc. are married by their own conventions as long as they follow the civil criminal laws. The same thing with divorces.

Sorry, no head cutting divorces in Israel.

Israel is recreated existentially strong.

By whom?

By the very nature of its existence and second strike capability.

 

[P F Tinmore]

First Israel does have borders , if you choose to stick your head in the sand and ignore this fact does not make you right.

Second, "in their country" ?
Their 'country' is the Palestinian teritories which is the West bank and Gaza. Israel is not inside Gaza or the West Bank ... How would they put it there ?

Can you prove that?

Cue song and dance.
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Sure (no song and dance needed when Wiki knows the answer)

Israel's borders are the borders of the State of Israel. The borders have changed from time to time with developments in Israel's military and diplomatic situation. It borders Lebanon in the north, Syria in the northeast, Jordan and the West Bank in the east, the Gaza Strip and Egypt on the southwest

Borders of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now
Cue song and dance.
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2
1

Border with Lebanon

The United Nations in June 2000 was called upon to decide the Lebanese border in order to determine whether Israel had fully withdrawn from Lebanon in compliance with Security Council Resolution 425. This line came to be called the Blue Line.

The Blue Line, which the UN had to determine was the line of deployment of the IDF prior to March 14, 1978, when Israel invaded Lebanon. In effect that line was recognised by both Lebanon and by Israel as the international border, and not just as the Armistice Demarcation Line of 1949[citation needed] (what is commonly called the Green Line) following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.

The Blue Line? Why not call it the international border?

In effect? Is this some new terminology in international law?

[citation needed] Indeed.

 

[Wolverine1984]

You see , as I said ... 'Song and Dance'.
I have proved to you that Israel has borders, and you choose to babble about how the borders is named and what 'in effect' means ...
You have no case.

 

[Ropey]

You see , as I said ... 'Song and Dance'.
I have proved to you that Israel has borders, and you choose to babble about how the borders is named and what 'in effect' means ...

You have no case.

 

[P F Tinmore]

You see , as I said ... 'Song and Dance'.
I have proved to you that Israel has borders, and you choose to babble about how the borders is named and what 'in effect' means ...
You have no case.

No you haven't. Borders are more than just say so. They are established by official agreements. These agreements are documented. These documents are held by the agreeing parties and are usually archived at the UN, the Avalon project at Yale, The Jewish Virtual Library, etc.

Where are these documents?

BTW, nobody has ever been able to find a 1948 map of Israel.

 

[Hossfly]

Israel is recreated existentially strong.

By whom?

"First, Zionism did not believe in the existence of God; the movement was secular, not religious...Zionism insisted that suffering in exile was a result of a minority status, not of sin.

"Zionism preached that the Jews must act on their own behalf to create their state in Zion, rather than wait till God did it for them...(Orr, The unJewish State, p.6)

"And yet, by every conventional criterion, the state of Israel is a theocracy.

"Civil marriage is not permitted under Israeli law, and marriage can be legally consecrated only by Rabbinical, Church or Shari'a courts.

"The same applies to divorce. Under Israeli law (Jurisdiction of Rabbinical Courts (Marriage and Divorce), 1953), religious courts are state courts and the religious judiciary (Rabbinical, Church and Shari'a) are paid by the state."

Israeli Apartheid.

How nice it is for Georgie to let us know that Israel pays for Sharia courts for Muslims and for religious courts for Christians also. Can Georgie point out to us any Muslim countries that pay for the religious courts of the people of different religions who happen to live in those countries?

 

[Wolverine1984]

You see , as I said ... 'Song and Dance'.
I have proved to you that Israel has borders, and you choose to babble about how the borders is named and what 'in effect' means ...
You have no case.

No you haven't. Borders are more than just say so. They are established by official agreements. These agreements are documented. These documents are held by the agreeing parties and are usually archived at the UN, the Avalon project at Yale, The Jewish Virtual Library, etc.

Where are these documents?

BTW, nobody has ever been able to find a 1948 map of Israel.

1949 Armistice Agreements

 

[Hossfly]

You see , as I said ... 'Song and Dance'.
I have proved to you that Israel has borders, and you choose to babble about how the borders is named and what 'in effect' means ...
You have no case.

No you haven't. Borders are more than just say so. They are established by official agreements. These agreements are documented. These documents are held by the agreeing parties and are usually archived at the UN, the Avalon project at Yale, The Jewish Virtual Library, etc.

Where are these documents?

BTW, nobody has ever been able to find a 1948 map of Israel.

Does this map meet with your approval? If not I have others.

Israel's Borders After 1948 War

 

[georgephillip]

You see , as I said ... 'Song and Dance'.
I have proved to you that Israel has borders, and you choose to babble about how the borders is named and what 'in effect' means ...
You have no case.

No you haven't. Borders are more than just say so. They are established by official agreements. These agreements are documented. These documents are held by the agreeing parties and are usually archived at the UN, the Avalon project at Yale, The Jewish Virtual Library, etc.

Where are these documents?

BTW, nobody has ever been able to find a 1948 map of Israel.

Does this map meet with your approval? If not I have others.

Israel's Borders After 1948 War

Put up one from the UN's November '47 partition plan

"The ordinary Israeli perceives the 'Green Line,' that is, the 1949 cease-fire lines, as the unchallenged international borders of his State, and withdrawal to those borders as the ultimate withdrawal. He could not be more mistaken.

"The ceasefire lines are defined as follows:

"In no sense are the cease-fire lines to be interpreted as political or territorial borders and their delineation in no way affects the rights, demands or positions of any of the parties to the cease-fire agreements regarding the final disposition of the Palestine question.

"The fundamental objective of the cease-fire lines is to serve as a line beyond which the armed forces of each of the parties will deploy.

"Thus Israel has no 'safe and recognized' borders, and the cease-fire lines, as the above agreements signed in Rhodes in 1949 make clear, are unacceptable to the Arab countries and will be unacceptable to the international community as soon as the issue is raised.

"The only internationally recognized borders are the UN's November 1947 partition borders."

Outpost, September 1999, p. 3

 

[georgephillip]

Israel is recreated existentially strong.

By whom?

"First, Zionism did not believe in the existence of God; the movement was secular, not religious...Zionism insisted that suffering in exile was a result of a minority status, not of sin.

"Zionism preached that the Jews must act on their own behalf to create their state in Zion, rather than wait till God did it for them...(Orr, The unJewish State, p.6)

"And yet, by every conventional criterion, the state of Israel is a theocracy.

"Civil marriage is not permitted under Israeli law, and marriage can be legally consecrated only by Rabbinical, Church or Shari'a courts.

"The same applies to divorce. Under Israeli law (Jurisdiction of Rabbinical Courts (Marriage and Divorce), 1953), religious courts are state courts and the religious judiciary (Rabbinical, Church and Shari'a) are paid by the state."

Israeli Apartheid.

How nice it is for Georgie to let us know that Israel pays for Sharia courts for Muslims and for religious courts for Christians also. Can Georgie point out to us any Muslim countries that pay for the religious courts of the people of different religions who happen to live in those countries?

Theocracies that provide three times as many religious courts as other theocracies are three times the threat to democracy. Are you looking forward to Rapture, Hossie?

 

[Wolverine1984]

No you haven't. Borders are more than just say so. They are established by official agreements. These agreements are documented. These documents are held by the agreeing parties and are usually archived at the UN, the Avalon project at Yale, The Jewish Virtual Library, etc.

Where are these documents?

BTW, nobody has ever been able to find a 1948 map of Israel.

Does this map meet with your approval? If not I have others.

Israel's Borders After 1948 War

Put up one from the UN's November '47 partition plan

"The ordinary Israeli perceives the 'Green Line,' that is, the 1949 cease-fire lines, as the unchallenged international borders of his State, and withdrawal to those borders as the ultimate withdrawal. He could not be more mistaken.

"The ceasefire lines are defined as follows:

"In no sense are the cease-fire lines to be interpreted as political or territorial borders and their delineation in no way affects the rights, demands or positions of any of the parties to the cease-fire agreements regarding the final disposition of the Palestine question.

"The fundamental objective of the cease-fire lines is to serve as a line beyond which the armed forces of each of the parties will deploy.

"Thus Israel has no 'safe and recognized' borders, and the cease-fire lines, as the above agreements signed in Rhodes in 1949 make clear, are unacceptable to the Arab countries and will be unacceptable to the international community as soon as the issue is raised.

"The only internationally recognized borders are the UN's November 1947 partition borders."

Outpost, September 1999, p. 3

This is a load of bull.

The armistice agreements were clear (at Arab insistence) that they were not creating permanent borders. The Egyptian-Israeli agreement stated "The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary, and is delineated without prejudice to rights, claims and positions of either Party to the Armistice as regards ultimate settlement of the Palestine question."[1]

In short until a permanent settlement can be achieved the 1949 armistice lines serve as borders.

 

[Hossfly]

By whom?

"First, Zionism did not believe in the existence of God; the movement was secular, not religious...Zionism insisted that suffering in exile was a result of a minority status, not of sin.

"Zionism preached that the Jews must act on their own behalf to create their state in Zion, rather than wait till God did it for them...(Orr, The unJewish State, p.6)

"And yet, by every conventional criterion, the state of Israel is a theocracy.

"Civil marriage is not permitted under Israeli law, and marriage can be legally consecrated only by Rabbinical, Church or Shari'a courts.

"The same applies to divorce. Under Israeli law (Jurisdiction of Rabbinical Courts (Marriage and Divorce), 1953), religious courts are state courts and the religious judiciary (Rabbinical, Church and Shari'a) are paid by the state."

Israeli Apartheid.

How nice it is for Georgie to let us know that Israel pays for Sharia courts for Muslims and for religious courts for Christians also. Can Georgie point out to us any Muslim countries that pay for the religious courts of the people of different religions who happen to live in those countries?

Theocracies that provide three times as many religious courts as other theocracies are three times the threat to democracy. Are you looking forward to Rapture, Hossie?

Tinmore wanted 1948, you want 1947. Jaysus, what does it take to convince you?
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts About Israel/Israel in Maps/Armistice Lines 1949-1967

You can read up on Res 242


United Nations Security Council Resolution 242

 

[georgephillip]

Does this map meet with your approval? If not I have others.

Israel's Borders After 1948 War

Put up one from the UN's November '47 partition plan

"The ordinary Israeli perceives the 'Green Line,' that is, the 1949 cease-fire lines, as the unchallenged international borders of his State, and withdrawal to those borders as the ultimate withdrawal. He could not be more mistaken.

"The ceasefire lines are defined as follows:

"In no sense are the cease-fire lines to be interpreted as political or territorial borders and their delineation in no way affects the rights, demands or positions of any of the parties to the cease-fire agreements regarding the final disposition of the Palestine question.

"The fundamental objective of the cease-fire lines is to serve as a line beyond which the armed forces of each of the parties will deploy.

"Thus Israel has no 'safe and recognized' borders, and the cease-fire lines, as the above agreements signed in Rhodes in 1949 make clear, are unacceptable to the Arab countries and will be unacceptable to the international community as soon as the issue is raised.

"The only internationally recognized borders are the UN's November 1947 partition borders."

Outpost, September 1999, p. 3

This is a load of bull.

The armistice agreements were clear (at Arab insistence) that they were not creating permanent borders. The Egyptian-Israeli agreement stated "The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary, and is delineated without prejudice to rights, claims and positions of either Party to the Armistice as regards ultimate settlement of the Palestine question."[1]

In short until a permanent settlement can be achieved the 1949 armistice lines serve as borders.

In January of 1976 the Arab states offered a permanent two state solution at the Security Council based on pre-'67 borders with minor and mutual modifications. Israel refused to attend the session, and the US vetoed the resolution.

Is that because there's more money in stealing your neighbors land and water?

 

[Hossfly]

Put up one from the UN's November '47 partition plan

"The ordinary Israeli perceives the 'Green Line,' that is, the 1949 cease-fire lines, as the unchallenged international borders of his State, and withdrawal to those borders as the ultimate withdrawal. He could not be more mistaken.

"The ceasefire lines are defined as follows:

"In no sense are the cease-fire lines to be interpreted as political or territorial borders and their delineation in no way affects the rights, demands or positions of any of the parties to the cease-fire agreements regarding the final disposition of the Palestine question.

"The fundamental objective of the cease-fire lines is to serve as a line beyond which the armed forces of each of the parties will deploy.

"Thus Israel has no 'safe and recognized' borders, and the cease-fire lines, as the above agreements signed in Rhodes in 1949 make clear, are unacceptable to the Arab countries and will be unacceptable to the international community as soon as the issue is raised.

"The only internationally recognized borders are the UN's November 1947 partition borders."

Outpost, September 1999, p. 3

This is a load of bull.

The armistice agreements were clear (at Arab insistence) that they were not creating permanent borders. The Egyptian-Israeli agreement stated "The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary, and is delineated without prejudice to rights, claims and positions of either Party to the Armistice as regards ultimate settlement of the Palestine question."[1]

In short until a permanent settlement can be achieved the 1949 armistice lines serve as borders.

In January of 1976 the Arab states offered a permanent two state solution at the Security Council based on pre-'67 borders with minor and mutual modifications. Israel refused to attend the session, and the US vetoed the resolution.

Is that because there's more money in stealing your neighbors land and water?

Hmm, Georgie seems to be obsessed with money. Maybe he should get a better job. Meanwhile, I wonder if Georgie can tell us why the Palestinians weren't clamoring for a state when the Egyptians and Jordanians were administering these territories. Look at how all the years passed when they said nothing about establishing a state of their own. Could it be that they felt they didn't need a state as long as the Egyptians and Jordanians were in charge, but when Israel started administering the territories, they couldn't bear the thought that it was the Jews who were in charge?

 

[P F Tinmore]

You see , as I said ... 'Song and Dance'.
I have proved to you that Israel has borders, and you choose to babble about how the borders is named and what 'in effect' means ...
You have no case.

No you haven't. Borders are more than just say so. They are established by official agreements. These agreements are documented. These documents are held by the agreeing parties and are usually archived at the UN, the Avalon project at Yale, The Jewish Virtual Library, etc.

Where are these documents?

BTW, nobody has ever been able to find a 1948 map of Israel.

1949 Armistice Agreements

1949.

 

[P F Tinmore]

How nice it is for Georgie to let us know that Israel pays for Sharia courts for Muslims and for religious courts for Christians also. Can Georgie point out to us any Muslim countries that pay for the religious courts of the people of different religions who happen to live in those countries?

Theocracies that provide three times as many religious courts as other theocracies are three times the threat to democracy. Are you looking forward to Rapture, Hossie?

Tinmore wanted 1948, you want 1947. Jaysus, what does it take to convince you?
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts About Israel/Israel in Maps/Armistice Lines 1949-1967

You can read up on Res 242


United Nations Security Council Resolution 242

Armistice Lines 1949-1967

Nope. No 1948 map here.