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"Smart people" also told us that heavier-than-air flight was impossible, the sound barrier was impenetrable, the Earth is flat, the universe is fixed, etcetera.There will always be growth because there will always be people desiring to improve their lot in life.
It's basic physics that the economy can not grow forever. Every marginal increase in output requires a marginal increase in inputs, and inputs are not infinite. No strength of desire can create something from nothing.
Scientists figured learned this fact over a century ago. Most economists are still blissfully ignorant of said fact.
Consider, if for only a moment, that all we know now isn't all there is to know and/or worth knowing.
Who said about making something from nothing?
What of making more stuff out of stuff we've already made and is obsolete (i.e. recycling)?
Who said about making something from nothing?
What of making more stuff out of stuff we've already made and is obsolete (i.e. recycling)?
Thermodynamics doesn't apply to the inventiveness and and indomitably of the human spirit.Who said about making something from nothing?
What of making more stuff out of stuff we've already made and is obsolete (i.e. recycling)?
You also clearly lack any understanding of the basic laws of thermodynamics, as this weak-sauce post displays.
And the Earth won't escape a solar nova.Who said about making something from nothing?
What of making more stuff out of stuff we've already made and is obsolete (i.e. recycling)?
Even recycling can't escape entropy.
And the Earth won't escape a solar nova.Who said about making something from nothing?
What of making more stuff out of stuff we've already made and is obsolete (i.e. recycling)?
Even recycling can't escape entropy.
So what?
As far as you know....But I'm the only one here willing to admit that what we "know" isn't all there is to know.And the Earth won't escape a solar nova.Even recycling can't escape entropy.
So what?
So what? So the economic hypothesis of permanent economic growth (permanent increases in production) is patently false. It's a fine assumption for a first-year macro class that never looks beyond it's own nose, but it's not an assumption upon which to build economic theory.
And the Earth won't escape a solar nova.Even recycling can't escape entropy.
So what?
So what? So the economic hypothesis of permanent economic growth (permanent increases in production) is patently false. It's a fine assumption for a first-year macro class that never looks beyond it's own nose, but it's not an assumption upon which to build economic theory.
Below is a draft of a letter to an imaginary politician up for election later this year:
Dear ______________
You are currently running for office as _____________________ in ____________________. As you know, we are living through economically tough times, and I hear a lot about how the economy can be brought back to stability and prosperity.
However, have you ever considered that economic growth might actually not return? That we might have to build a societal infrastructure based on less?
If so, what would be your plans to mitigate such a situation, to make sure that life can go on for your constituents in a future where "more each year" is no longer possible?
Or alternatively, if you don't have any plans - are you 100 percent certain that growth and prosperity will ever return, and if so, why is it that you see no risk worth looking at?
Pretend you're the candidate. How would you answer this question?
The Oil Drum: Campfire | Dear Candidate - What Will You Do if Growth Is Over...?
Follow-up questions:
1. Is there a reason why this kind of letter shouldn't be sent to real people who want our vote?
2a. Would a candidate addressing these issues/questions stand any chance of winning?
2b. If not, might such a candidate, even in a losing effort, influence the election issues and as a result positively impact transition efforts away from growth based economy?
Carter tried this with his solar panels on the WH roof and "belt tightening" addresses to the American public and he got hamstrung by the military industrial complex.
If politicians admitted that growth was over they would have to suspend deficit spending and perhaps even install surplus budgets. Meaning a 40% reduction in federal spending.
Won't happen.
Happy talk wins elections
Sobering realities lose elections.
Even if one partisan spoke the truth the rival partisan would take the happy talk approach to win.
It's the economy stupid!
As far as you know....But I'm the only one here willing to admit that what we "know" isn't all there is to know.And the Earth won't escape a solar nova.
So what?
So what? So the economic hypothesis of permanent economic growth (permanent increases in production) is patently false. It's a fine assumption for a first-year macro class that never looks beyond it's own nose, but it's not an assumption upon which to build economic theory.
Moreover, I find the notion that economic growth is anywhere near its end, in any kind of near-term time frame to where the question is relevant in the here and now, beyond laughable, to the point of pure absurdity.
But please, carry on...All the world has loved a good dystopic Armageddon yarn, since at least the time of the Revelation.
So, the fiat money ponzi scheme comes crashing to the ground, like they always do...What makes that any kind of indicator that economic growth will cease?Carter tried this with his solar panels on the WH roof and "belt tightening" addresses to the American public and he got hamstrung by the military industrial complex.
If politicians admitted that growth was over they would have to suspend deficit spending and perhaps even install surplus budgets. Meaning a 40% reduction in federal spending.
Won't happen.
Happy talk wins elections
Sobering realities lose elections.
Even if one partisan spoke the truth the rival partisan would take the happy talk approach to win.
It's the economy stupid!
Finally, a post that addresses the original hypothetical. Thank you.
I agree with you that "happy talk" wins elections. But as each layer of the great ponzi scheme is stripped bare, this elephant in the room grows more and more unavoidable. It must be addressed, because it IS happening.
Chyst, 32 states are borrowing from the federal government in order to pay unemployment compensation. Municipalities can't plow or pave roads. Wages are essentially frozen. Manufacturing is kaput. Utilities and food costs skyrocketing. Growth is over. Period.
They'd better stop with the rainbows and gumdrops scheme and start being honest with the American people. They can't bullshit anyone any longer.
Carter tried this with his solar panels on the WH roof and "belt tightening" addresses to the American public and he got hamstrung by the military industrial complex.
If politicians admitted that growth was over they would have to suspend deficit spending and perhaps even install surplus budgets. Meaning a 40% reduction in federal spending.
Won't happen.
Happy talk wins elections
Sobering realities lose elections.
Even if one partisan spoke the truth the rival partisan would take the happy talk approach to win.
It's the economy stupid!
Finally, a post that addresses the original hypothetical. Thank you.
I agree with you that "happy talk" wins elections. But as each layer of the great ponzi scheme is stripped bare, this elephant in the room grows more and more unavoidable. It must be addressed, because it IS happening.
Chyst, 32 states are borrowing from the federal government in order to pay unemployment compensation. Municipalities can't plow or pave roads. Wages are essentially frozen. Manufacturing is kaput. Utilities and food costs skyrocketing. Growth is over. Period.
They'd better stop with the rainbows and gumdrops scheme and start being honest with the American people. They can't bullshit anyone any longer.
Wow...Who brought Paul Ehrlich to the party?I agree that growth is over for us, in the USA, unless we reject globalization asap.
And even doing that would only open a small window before the forces of population explosion and resource depletion overcome us.
So, the fiat money ponzi scheme comes crashing to the ground, like they always do...What makes that any kind of indicator that economic growth will cease?
People will find a way to create, trade and grow, no matter what the funny money banksters do.
BTW, how did that bet with Julian Simon work out for you, professor?
Check your premise.So, the fiat money ponzi scheme comes crashing to the ground, like they always do...What makes that any kind of indicator that economic growth will cease?
People will find a way to create, trade and grow, no matter what the funny money banksters do.
Are you fucking kidding? How will growth ever increase if resources are depleted toward a diminishing returns end and the very vehicles of industrial trade crashes around you?
You think mere "people" can create what industries did benefiting from economies of scale and specialization of labor?
As far as you know....But I'm the only one here willing to admit that what we "know" isn't all there is to know.And the Earth won't escape a solar nova.
So what?
So what? So the economic hypothesis of permanent economic growth (permanent increases in production) is patently false. It's a fine assumption for a first-year macro class that never looks beyond it's own nose, but it's not an assumption upon which to build economic theory.
Ah, now we can get somewhere. At least you admit that there could be an end to economic growth. And I agree that we're nowhere near it - especially if we don't concern ourselves with the post-peak results. But it's a fundamental flaw of mainstream economics to assume you can make something from nothing.Moreover, I find the notion that economic growth is anywhere near its end, in any kind of near-term time frame to where the question is relevant in the here and now, beyond laughable, to the point of pure absurdity.
