Cryptic speciation and evolution

[rdean]

Just watching a special on 16 mouse lemur species in northwestern Madagascar. Seems there used to be one but when continents collided and created the Himalayas the weather patterns changed and created the Monsoons. Six months dry and six months of rain with as much as 10 inches falling in a day.

The downpour created deeper and wider rivers which eventually created islands. The separation over millions of years let mouse lemurs evolve into separate species which can no longer successfully mate because of genetic divergence.

Scientists thought there was only one species because they look the same. Visually, you can't tell them apart. "Classic" Cryptic Speciation. Only by genetic study. Or so we thought. So if we can't tell the difference, how can they?

Being nocturnal, they have no need of "color". Their habitats are similar so there is no driving environmental change making them different.

It's all about "smell" and their "song". Each species has it's own smell and it's own song. Because, like bats, their voice is above our range, we can only hear the song if we lower the frequency. And the songs are extremely different. They only react to those of their same species.

You know what this means, right? It means evolution is going to change us even without being driven by environmental changes. As scientists learn more and more, there is a "correction factor". It shows that science is not dogma. Study and research can change perception. Even when our eyes tell us these are the same, science tells us, "No, they are different".

I wonder if zoo breeders had a difficult time trying to breed these creatures without realizing they are different species. I wonder how many others there are? I wonder how long the right wing can cling to the idea that "mysticism" is the driving force of evolution? And that science is a faith?

 

[rdean]

I thought Republicans would be all over this explaining how "magical creation" was at the "root".

 

[Steven_R]

You do realize that not every Republican believes in creationism and not every Democrat believes in science, right? 41% of Democrats are YEC believers. The Liberals' War on Science: Scientific American

 

[Mr. H.]

Don't even attempt to use logic and reason with The Dean.
It's a futile effort.

 

[Sunni Man]

I actually thought rdean was going to make an OP on an interesting subject without the usual partisan nonsense.

And as I read the post I felt maybe Deanie Boy had turned a new leaf.

But when I got to the last sentence.......disappointment struck.

Seems that in rdeans world, every event since the Ice Age can be blamed on right wing conservative Republicans. .

 

[rdean]

You do realize that not every Republican believes in creationism and not every Democrat believes in science, right? 41% of Democrats are YEC believers. The Liberals' War on Science: Scientific American

The vast majority of Republicans believe in magical creation. And 9 out of 10 of their presidential nominees.

Democrats are smart enough to let the educated design our science classes, not our clergy.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Just watching a special on 16 mouse lemur species in northwestern Madagascar. Seems there used to be one but when continents collided and created the Himalayas the weather patterns changed and created the Monsoons. Six months dry and six months of rain with as much as 10 inches falling in a day.

The downpour created deeper and wider rivers which eventually created islands. The separation over millions of years let mouse lemurs evolve into separate species which can no longer successfully mate because of genetic divergence.

Scientists thought there was only one species because they look the same. Visually, you can't tell them apart. "Classic" Cryptic Speciation. Only by genetic study. Or so we thought. So if we can't tell the difference, how can they?

Being nocturnal, they have no need of "color". Their habitats are similar so there is no driving environmental change making them different.

It's all about "smell" and their "song". Each species has it's own smell and it's own song. Because, like bats, their voice is above our range, we can only hear the song if we lower the frequency. And the songs are extremely different. They only react to those of their same species.

You know what this means, right? It means evolution is going to change us even without being driven by environmental changes. As scientists learn more and more, there is a "correction factor". It shows that science is not dogma. Study and research can change perception. Even when our eyes tell us these are the same, science tells us, "No, they are different".

I wonder if zoo breeders had a difficult time trying to breed these creatures without realizing they are different species. I wonder how many others there are? I wonder how long the right wing can cling to the idea that "mysticism" is the driving force of evolution? And that science is a faith?

Somebody needs to explain why species means that they can interbreed, but aren't the same species.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You do realize that not every Republican believes in creationism and not every Democrat believes in science, right? 41% of Democrats are YEC believers. The Liberals' War on Science: Scientific American

rweanie still doesn't admit that Democrats are more likely to believe that Jesus will return by 2050 than Republicans.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You do realize that not every Republican believes in creationism and not every Democrat believes in science, right? 41% of Democrats are YEC believers. The Liberals' War on Science: Scientific American

The vast majority of Republicans believe in magical creation. And 9 out of 10 of their presidential nominees.

Democrats are smart enough to let the educated design our science classes, not our clergy.

If they were, I would vote for them, The truth is they want politicians to design them, just like Republicans.

 

[flacaltenn]

Gee. Now I understand why I didn't belong in California. The vocalizations were different.
And all that time --- I thought we were one happy species...

In the case of Honey Boo Boo or Ozzie Osbournes' family -- it always was clear to me that I was observing a completely different species.

 

[rdean]

Just watching a special on 16 mouse lemur species in northwestern Madagascar. Seems there used to be one but when continents collided and created the Himalayas the weather patterns changed and created the Monsoons. Six months dry and six months of rain with as much as 10 inches falling in a day.

The downpour created deeper and wider rivers which eventually created islands. The separation over millions of years let mouse lemurs evolve into separate species which can no longer successfully mate because of genetic divergence.

Scientists thought there was only one species because they look the same. Visually, you can't tell them apart. "Classic" Cryptic Speciation. Only by genetic study. Or so we thought. So if we can't tell the difference, how can they?

Being nocturnal, they have no need of "color". Their habitats are similar so there is no driving environmental change making them different.

It's all about "smell" and their "song". Each species has it's own smell and it's own song. Because, like bats, their voice is above our range, we can only hear the song if we lower the frequency. And the songs are extremely different. They only react to those of their same species.

You know what this means, right? It means evolution is going to change us even without being driven by environmental changes. As scientists learn more and more, there is a "correction factor". It shows that science is not dogma. Study and research can change perception. Even when our eyes tell us these are the same, science tells us, "No, they are different".

I wonder if zoo breeders had a difficult time trying to breed these creatures without realizing they are different species. I wonder how many others there are? I wonder how long the right wing can cling to the idea that "mysticism" is the driving force of evolution? And that science is a faith?

Somebody needs to explain why species means that they can interbreed, but aren't the same species.

Evolution 101: Speciation

Apparently, it has been explained.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Just watching a special on 16 mouse lemur species in northwestern Madagascar. Seems there used to be one but when continents collided and created the Himalayas the weather patterns changed and created the Monsoons. Six months dry and six months of rain with as much as 10 inches falling in a day.

The downpour created deeper and wider rivers which eventually created islands. The separation over millions of years let mouse lemurs evolve into separate species which can no longer successfully mate because of genetic divergence.

Scientists thought there was only one species because they look the same. Visually, you can't tell them apart. "Classic" Cryptic Speciation. Only by genetic study. Or so we thought. So if we can't tell the difference, how can they?

Being nocturnal, they have no need of "color". Their habitats are similar so there is no driving environmental change making them different.

It's all about "smell" and their "song". Each species has it's own smell and it's own song. Because, like bats, their voice is above our range, we can only hear the song if we lower the frequency. And the songs are extremely different. They only react to those of their same species.

You know what this means, right? It means evolution is going to change us even without being driven by environmental changes. As scientists learn more and more, there is a "correction factor". It shows that science is not dogma. Study and research can change perception. Even when our eyes tell us these are the same, science tells us, "No, they are different".

I wonder if zoo breeders had a difficult time trying to breed these creatures without realizing they are different species. I wonder how many others there are? I wonder how long the right wing can cling to the idea that "mysticism" is the driving force of evolution? And that science is a faith?

It must be true because you've evolved a weird "it's the Republicans fault" song irrespective of the topic.

 

[alan1]

I actually thought rdean was going to make an OP on an interesting subject without the usual partisan nonsense.

And as I read the post I felt maybe Deanie Boy had turned a new leaf.

But when I got to the last sentence.......disappointment struck.

Seems that in rdeans world, every event since the Ice Age can be blamed on right wing conservative Republicans. .

Sunni Man,
I had the same experience as I was reading his post.
He did do one thing different though, this time he said "right wing", not "Republicans".
I almost felt as if he was talking to me, except I'm "extreme right wing".

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Just watching a special on 16 mouse lemur species in northwestern Madagascar. Seems there used to be one but when continents collided and created the Himalayas the weather patterns changed and created the Monsoons. Six months dry and six months of rain with as much as 10 inches falling in a day.

The downpour created deeper and wider rivers which eventually created islands. The separation over millions of years let mouse lemurs evolve into separate species which can no longer successfully mate because of genetic divergence.

Scientists thought there was only one species because they look the same. Visually, you can't tell them apart. "Classic" Cryptic Speciation. Only by genetic study. Or so we thought. So if we can't tell the difference, how can they?

Being nocturnal, they have no need of "color". Their habitats are similar so there is no driving environmental change making them different.

It's all about "smell" and their "song". Each species has it's own smell and it's own song. Because, like bats, their voice is above our range, we can only hear the song if we lower the frequency. And the songs are extremely different. They only react to those of their same species.

You know what this means, right? It means evolution is going to change us even without being driven by environmental changes. As scientists learn more and more, there is a "correction factor". It shows that science is not dogma. Study and research can change perception. Even when our eyes tell us these are the same, science tells us, "No, they are different".

I wonder if zoo breeders had a difficult time trying to breed these creatures without realizing they are different species. I wonder how many others there are? I wonder how long the right wing can cling to the idea that "mysticism" is the driving force of evolution? And that science is a faith?

Somebody needs to explain why species means that they can interbreed, but aren't the same species.

Evolution 101: Speciation

Apparently, it has been explained.

Your understanding of science approaches the level I had in 2nd grade.

From your link.

A species is often defined as a group of individuals that actually or potentially interbreed in nature. In this sense, a species is the biggest gene pool possible under natural conditions.

...

If two lineages of oak look quite different, but occasionally form hybrids with each other, should we count them as different species? There are lots of other places where the boundary of a species is blurred. It’s not so surprising that these blurry places exist—after all, the idea of a species is something that we humans invented for our own convenience!

I think I just insulted myself.

 

[rdean]

Somebody needs to explain why species means that they can interbreed, but aren't the same species.

Evolution 101: Speciation

Apparently, it has been explained.

Your understanding of science approaches the level I had in 2nd grade.

From your link.

A species is often defined as a group of individuals that actually or potentially interbreed in nature. In this sense, a species is the biggest gene pool possible under natural conditions.

...

If two lineages of oak look quite different, but occasionally form hybrids with each other, should we count them as different species? There are lots of other places where the boundary of a species is blurred. It’s not so surprising that these blurry places exist—after all, the idea of a species is something that we humans invented for our own convenience!

I think I just insulted myself.

Species branch out over time. There is no "cut off" period. It's why Zebra's and horses and donkeys can all continue to breed with each other. Or Lions and Tigers. But animals that have diverged so far apart introduce defects. It's why inter-species colts are often called "mules" (think of why they are called "mules"). Or the why the product of a lion/tiger union often experiences unrestrained growth. That is the evidence of evolution and divergence.

What makes the mouse lemurs unique is that they can no longer produce inter species offspring. And they look exactly alike. Their environments are the same but separate. That means that right wing bullshit about "kinds" is just that. Bull shit. It means that evolution isn't just "change" in an obvious way, like the finches at the Galapagos islands. But that species will change genetically over time because that is the very nature of genetics. Every generation is a different combination and introduces some minute change. And that it's not always driven by environment. That it's inherent to reproduction.

How come right wingers always need the obvious spelled out to them? Don't they get anything?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Evolution 101: Speciation

Apparently, it has been explained.

Your understanding of science approaches the level I had in 2nd grade.

From your link.

A species is often defined as a group of individuals that actually or potentially interbreed in nature. In this sense, a species is the biggest gene pool possible under natural conditions.

...

If two lineages of oak look quite different, but occasionally form hybrids with each other, should we count them as different species? There are lots of other places where the boundary of a species is blurred. It’s not so surprising that these blurry places exist—after all, the idea of a species is something that we humans invented for our own convenience!

I think I just insulted myself.

Species branch out over time. There is no "cut off" period. It's why Zebra's and horses and donkeys can all continue to breed with each other. Or Lions and Tigers. But animals that have diverged so far apart introduce defects. It's why inter-species colts are often called "mules" (think of why they are called "mules"). Or the why the product of a lion/tiger union often experiences unrestrained growth. That is the evidence of evolution and divergence.

What makes the mouse lemurs unique is that they can no longer produce inter species offspring. And they look exactly alike. Their environments are the same but separate. That means that right wing bullshit about "kinds" is just that. Bull shit. It means that evolution isn't just "change" in an obvious way, like the finches at the Galapagos islands. But that species will change genetically over time because that is the very nature of genetics. Every generation is a different combination and introduces some minute change. And that it's not always driven by environment. That it's inherent to reproduction.

How come right wingers always need the obvious spelled out to them? Don't they get anything?

I keep forgetting I am talking to a guy that is so stupid he doesn't understand how little he knows.

The very first paragraph of your link said that species, by definition, are defined by the ability to breed. It then goes on to explain that that defintion is completely wrong, and that no one actually has a definition of species that is simple to explain because it can vary arbitrarily.

If you go back and reread my first post, I said that we need to settle on a definition of species that includes the ability to breed, and produce fertile offspring, yet still allows us to explain it simply. since that point you have tried to prove that a) I don't know what the fuck I am talking about and that, b) no one who you label as right wing understands basic science.

So far all you have accomplished is a) you are a genius at finding links that make my case for me and make you look like an idiot and b) sounding like a lunatic.

To demonstrate both of those points let me go back to your first post in this thread. You provided no links, yet you now claim that the individual species, even though they appear to be identical, cannot interbreed. In scientific circles, that is known as a lie.

There is something known as Taxonomic inflation in scientific circles. You really should educate yourself on the debate before you try to prove you understand more about science than I do.

Madagascar's Lemurs: Cryptic diversity or taxonomic inflation? - Tattersall - 2007 - Evolutionary Anthropology: Issues, News, and Reviews - Wiley Online Library

 

[Harry Dresden]

what the hell happened to Dean?.....

 

[whitehall]

It don't take much to piss off lefties these days. Even zebras and mules are cause for political speculation and outrage. Beats talking about health care anyway.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Actually your article does not say they can't breed, it says they won't breed due to mating habits.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

what the hell happened to Dean?.....

He tried to prove he knows more about science than me.

He failed, again.