Could we ban abortion on the state level?

[Immanuel]

At what point has brain function developed enough that abortion is no longer okay for you?

Actually, I see criteria for abortion where the medical community draws the cutoff, which is reliant on the viability of the fetus outside the womb.

I have seen an unborn human being or at least a part of one, just after the mother and father found out a child was on the way... it was in my bed when my wife and I awoke. My wife lost our first child about a week after missing her period. It was rather bloody and we didn't exactly exam it as we were kind of heartbroken. And guess, what, it is pretty easy to say it didn't look human. It kind of relieves the pain somewhat. But, it was still human... the DOCTORS ACTUALLY CONFIRMED THAT! Can you believe that? It wasn't an alien. It was human. Go figure!

Most women discover they are pregnant well after we did. We were newlyweds and really wanted children so shortly after missing the first period, we had a test done. Three days later we woke up to bloody sheets. Just enough time to be thrilled to death that we were going to be parents.

Regardless of any of that, it is still a human being regardless of what you think and nothing you say can change that fact.

So what if it looks like any other mammal? It still looks human and it is still human. It won't become a cat or a dog or a whale or any other species. It is human thus... it looks like a human in the early stages of life.

You don't seem to know much about the topic at all, yet you have the mistaken impression that anyone gives a damn about your extremely biased opinion.

Care's description pretty much guts your so-called case.

Immie

I'm sorry for your loss.

That aside, Care's copy and paste in no way refutes anything I've said. In your own description, I couldn't help but notice you contradicted yourself. You refer to the fetus you saw as "part of" a human being. You acknowledge it looks like any other mammal and in the next sentence claim it *really* looks human. Well which is it? Does it look like any mammal or does it look human? Last I checked, the two were easy to differentiate. Does it look human or like part of one? Did it look human or did it look like a bloody mess of tissue?

And this is exactly the type of twisted reasoning I referred to. You are trying to convince yourself that this traumatic experience was not as foreign as it appeared, which explains the inherent contradictions. You are understandably upset by the personal experience and would naturally take the stance that such outcomes are bad. But what is emotional and traumatic and horrible for you is not the same for others. Because at the end of the day, you know for a fact that the bloody mess you saw was not a human being. You know what humans look like, and what you saw was not it. The doctors might have told you it was human tissue, but it was not a human being. You can't even claim that fetus was developing into a human being for the sheer fact of its unfortunate fate. It could not and did not become a human being.

Look, I owe you an apology. I was offended by your first post to me. Please forgive me.

I did not say that we should ban abortions. I don't even know where you came up with that idea from me unless you know me from other sites ten years ago?

I would love to entirely eliminate all abortions, but as I said in my last post, that will not happen by force. It can only happen through education and compassion. Compassion for the mothers as well as the fetus. Compassion for the people in this world that are starving. Compassion for the orphaned etc. And you want to know something? It takes both sides (pro-life and pro-choice) to come together on this issue in order to solve it. Quite frankly, we need to get the damned political parties out of the fray because both are doing their damnedest to interfere with the solution.

One more thing, what a human being looks like from the moment of conception through birth is completely immaterial. The fact is that it is a human being. It will never become anything else. The Pro-choice argument that it doesn't even look like a human being is a ridiculous argument that only seeks to hide the fact that it is a human being and always will be a human being. It is a deceptive argument. I'm not saying you are attempting to be deceptive, you are simply using an argument that has been brought forth before, but the truth is that regardless of what it looks like, it is still a human being.

I believe that it is actually you, yourself, who are trying to convince yourself that it is not a human being. How could it not be? There is no biological way that it could be anything besides a human being.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

I agree, Mr. Time, but that's not how I read Madeline's point. I believe she is correct in believing that these "morals" would not be in place if the historically dominant gender had to personally deal with the consequences of pregnancy. Do you disagree?

Some lucky chick is this guy's Mom, and likely others are his wife, daughter and woman friend. It takes compassion and respect to reach this POV...and very few men possess enough of either towards womankind, IMO.

Madeline,

All Father Time said was that it is wrong to claim that anyone who is opposed to abortions wants to put women back into the dark ages. You really were painting with a very broad brush with your insinuation.

I'm opposed to abortion. But that does not mean that I want women to be barefoot and pregnant. There is much more to life than that.

Immie

 

[Father Time]

I agree, Mr. Time, but that's not how I read Madeline's point. I believe she is correct in believing that these "morals" would not be in place if the historically dominant gender had to personally deal with the consequences of pregnancy. Do you disagree?

No, lots of people of all stripes like to abandon their ethics when the shit hits the fan (not to say I think abortion is unethical).

With that in mind there are some women even non-conservative ones who have ethical qualms with abortion.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

I always find it amusing when people online refer to others as "thinking they are too smart", because they would need to by necessity believe that person IS smart to bring up such a thing in the first place.

 

[Bern80]

I always find it amusing when people online refer to others as "thinking they are too smart", because they would need to by necessity believe that person IS smart to bring up such a thing in the first place.

I think you just proved their point for them.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

order counts in this world. had I made a remark about my own intelligence previously, then you would be correct. but the fact that he brought it up first by necessity means he perceived me as intelligent. After all, there are tons of people on this forum who throw out ridiculously inane ideas all the time. Why would it happen to be one person he perceives as "thinking they are too smart" unless he actually thought I was smart and felt threatened by it enough to make that remark?

 

[Madeline]

I agree, Mr. Time, but that's not how I read Madeline's point. I believe she is correct in believing that these "morals" would not be in place if the historically dominant gender had to personally deal with the consequences of pregnancy. Do you disagree?

Some lucky chick is this guy's Mom, and likely others are his wife, daughter and woman friend. It takes compassion and respect to reach this POV...and very few men possess enough of either towards womankind, IMO.

Madeline,

All Father Time said was that it is wrong to claim that anyone who is opposed to abortions wants to put women back into the dark ages. You really were painting with a very broad brush with your insinuation.

I'm opposed to abortion. But that does not mean that I want women to be barefoot and pregnant. There is much more to life than that.

Immie

Immie, every healhy and ethical human "opposes abortion". It's a fallacy that the battlecry "legalize abortion on demand" was EVER about substituting abortion for contraception. Anyone who has ever had to face the terror and shock of an unwanted pregnancy and has undergone an abortion procedure did so with a heavy heart. It is nobody's idea of a good thing -- just the avoidance of something much worse.

I truely do not see how any thinking person can claim they seek to end the right to legal abortion on demand, but yet they are not a mysoginist. You cannot carve out an exception of privacy rights and say that the single most fundamental one -- the right to control one's body and one's reproduction -- shall be denied to women. Without that aspect of their constitutional rights, women ARE subjugated and oppressed.

Sorry Immie...you know I like you. But if you agitate against legal abortion on demand, then at the very core of you, IMO you don't like me, and women generally. To love and respect us, you must agree we have the same rights as you -- to choose the lives we want.

Ordinarially I'd say to another who disagreed with me that "reasonable people can disagree".

However, not as to legal abortion on demand. If you oppose it, you oppose self-control and dignity for women. In my book, that makes you a mysoginst. There just is no middle ground where you can sorta interfere with my basic rights and I nonetheless feel respected by you, as a chick or as a human.

 

[Bern80]

order counts in this world. had I made a remark about my own intelligence previously, then you would be correct. but the fact that he brought it up first by necessity means he perceived me as intelligent. After all, there are tons of people on this forum who throw out ridiculously inane ideas all the time. Why would it happen to be one person he perceives as "thinking they are too smart" unless he actually thought I was smart and felt threatened by it enough to make that remark?

Because they are observing that YOU seem to think you are smarter than you are. Whether you explicitly said so or not is irrelevant. The manner in which you converse conveys a lot.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

and how would one observe that exactly? what traits or qualities allow you to believe someone thinks they are smarter than they really are? hahaha

 

[Bern80]

and how would one observe that exactly? what traits or qualities allow you to believe someone thinks they are smarter than they really are? hahaha

When they make statements that aren't true.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

correct. except that is the case with the majority of posters here, and nothing I've said has actually been contested or refuted, so clearly that's not the reason behind the statement. I mean if he told everyone who said something wrong they think they are smarter then they are, or if he pointed out something I said as incorrect, it'd be a different story. By the way, I'm happy to support everything I've said with credible sources if requested.

So if it has nothing to do with my making statements that aren't true, what are some other traits or qualities that allow you to believe someone thinks they are smarter than they really are?

 

[Madeline]

Not to worry, SmartrerThanHicks.

People dun always enjoy being forced to see the truth, and the truth about the "anti-abortion rights" zealots is this:

Either you are a mysoginist or a complete fucking sheeple such that FORTY fucking years of explanation that you are wrong-wrong-wrong has not penetrated. There are ways to reduce unprotected sex, and thereby reduce the abortion rate. Ones that we can all get behind. There IS no way to reduce abortion rates -- only to subject poor and middle class women to deaths and devastation from illegal ones. Wanna reduce the number of abortions? Stand outside high schools and nightclubs, giving away condoms. THAT would actually be effective.

Wake the fuck up, if you are in a la la land where it might could be that no woman ever aborted again. The fucking Ancients had abortificants, you fuckwhits.

And if you just sliding into the "anti-abortion rights movement" because really, you just fucking hate chicks, then say so.

Quit all this preposterous pussyfooting around.

We can take it. We've been dealing with this type of hatred and bullshit since BIRTH.

 

[Immanuel]

order counts in this world. had I made a remark about my own intelligence previously, then you would be correct. but the fact that he brought it up first by necessity means he perceived me as intelligent. After all, there are tons of people on this forum who throw out ridiculously inane ideas all the time. Why would it happen to be one person he perceives as "thinking they are too smart" unless he actually thought I was smart and felt threatened by it enough to make that remark?

Wrong!

Your handle is "smarterthanhick". You remark about your own intelligence every time you post. The comment was more about your arrogance than your intelligence.

Immie