Could we ban abortion on the state level?

[Dr Gregg]

To quote you... blah, blah, blah... what gives you the right to decide?

Immie

The supreme court decided

Hehehe,

I knew you would say that, so let me ask you this, if we pro-lifers found a way to convince the Supreme Court of the errors of its ways, would you simply give up?

Somehow, I kind doubt it.

Immie

For one, not going to happen.

Also, its totally impractical to make it illegal. How would it be enforced, what charges for those that abort? How do you prove that the woman didn't purposely cause a miscarriage. What if the woman would die if the pregnancy continues? What about all the hungry in the world, all the unwanted children in foster care?

The fantasy world people rarely ever view the reality of life, without ever thinking of the ramifications of doing such a thing as making abortion illegal. Who gives a shit what the actual living, breathing, thinking, feeling human mother, got to protect the fetus at all costs. Also, doesn't really resemble a human yet as a fetus, as it looks nearly identical to all other mammals at that stage. Go look at developmental stages of embryonic development of other organisms, looks nearly identical to that of human embryonic development all up until the later, viable stages

 

[Immanuel]

The supreme court decided

Hehehe,

I knew you would say that, so let me ask you this, if we pro-lifers found a way to convince the Supreme Court of the errors of its ways, would you simply give up?

Somehow, I kind doubt it.

Immie

For one, not going to happen.

Also, its totally impractical to make it illegal. How would it be enforced,

Um, you are repeating what I said. See post number 94 and I believe several days ago in this very thread I said the same thing.

what charges for those that abort?

I suspect if they were going to do so, then the doctor would risk losing his license to practice medicine. As for the woman? Well, I personally am hesitant to prescribe any punishment at this point. I look at it in the same way that I look at those who smoke today. It is politically incorrect for people to smoke today. People who do are made out to be monsters who don't care about other people's health. Well, it was not so long ago that people were encouraged to smoke and every other ad on tv and probably 60% of magazine ads were advertising cigarettes. Now, people want to string the smokers up. For nearly 40 years this government has supported and damn near promoted abortion. Now you want to punish the woman? I'd be satisfied with eliminating the need for abortion rather than making it a crime.

How do you prove that the woman didn't purposely cause a miscarriage.

Again, that is part of the problem with making it illegal. You simply can't prove that she didn't have a miscarriage.

What if the woman would die if the pregnancy continues?

I almost have to ask... did you even read my post? I mentioned medical necessity as being part of the compromise we are willing to make.

What about all the hungry in the world[?]

I'm open to solving that problem, but it is not part of this discussion.

all the unwanted children in foster care?

Again, briefly discussed in post number 94. Briefly, I didn't go into detail.

The fantasy world people rarely ever view the reality of life, without ever thinking of the ramifications of doing such a thing as making abortion illegal.

Now, I know you didn't read either one of my posts!

Who gives a shit what the actual living, breathing, thinking, feeling human mother, got to protect the fetus at all costs.

I care. But, I also believe in protecting life. "At all costs"? You are putting words in our mouths. I can't speak for other pro-lifers, but I value the life of the woman as well as that of the fetus. The question simply is not easy for me to answer.

Also, doesn't really resemble a human yet as a fetus, as it looks nearly identical to all other mammals at that stage. Go look at developmental stages of embryonic development of other organisms, looks nearly identical to that of human embryonic development all up until the later, viable stages

I've seen them. They look pretty human to me. In fact, much more human than they look like a Clump of Cells that you want to call them.

Immie

 

[SmarterThanHick]

Here's an idea, how about letting the voters have a voice on abortion for once? Or does that prospect scare you too much?

because voters are ignorant and undereducated. let's just get this out there. all opinions are not created equal. You have the medical profession, comprised of some of the smartest and more well-informed minds in the country dealing with this issue. You think your opinion has value? You think you should be able to vote on what OTHER people do with their body?

I cannot compromise with you and say, "oh well big deal it is just a fetus", because it is not. It is a developing human being in the early stages of life.

You say you want compromise, but what you seem to really want is for people who believe in the right to life to simply cave in to things that they believe are extremely immoral.

Except, it is a fetus. That DEFINES fetus. Ignorant people have this habit of making up definitions. No, it's not just a little human. In its early stages, it looks like a fish, complete with gill slits. It is tissue. Brain function has not developed. The tissue is not viable at all for survival outside the mother.

I hope you realize that by the time most women find out that they are pregnant, the so-called clump of cells has developed into something that actually can be identified as a human being. If is no longer just a "clump of cells". You do... don't you?

By the time a woman has missed her first period, the clump of cells has taken one week to travel to the uterus, and has been implanting for one week. It is a small disk made of two layers. Not only can it not be identified as human, but it can't be identified without a microscope.

As someone else mentioned, later stages appear like any other mammal. If you have ever seen a premie which unfortunately has not matured in the uterus enough to survive outside it, you know they appear alien. But you don't know these facts. You don't know much about the topic at all, and yet you believe your opinion matters.

 

[Bern80]

Except, it is a fetus. That DEFINES fetus. Ignorant people have this habit of making up definitions. No, it's not just a little human. In its early stages, it looks like a fish, complete with gill slits. It is tissue. Brain function has not developed. The tissue is not viable at all for survival outside the mother.

At what point has brain function developed enough that abortion is no longer okay for you?

 

[Care4all]

Week 6
(counting from first day of last menstrual period)
Around 4 Weeks After Conception

Fetal Development: My Heart Belongs to You!
The first heartbeats have begun! The baby is now an embryo and is about 1/17 of an inch long. Growth is very rapid this week. The umbilical cord develops. The eyes and ears begin to form as well as an opening for the mouth. The heart has begun to pump blood and most of the other organs are well under construction. Buds form on the body that will become the arms and legs.
Exciting week!



Week 8
(counting from first day of last menstrual period)
Around 6 Weeks After Conception

Fetal Development: An ultrasound done at this stage should show a fluttering heartbeat. Elbows begin to form in the arms and fingers start to develop. The leg buds begin to show feet with tiny notches for the toes. The face continues to change as the ears, eyes and the tip of the nose appear. The intestines start to form in the umbilical cord. Teeth develop under the gums.


Week 11
(counting from first day of last menstrual period)
Around 9 Weeks After Conception

Fetal Development: I'm a Fetus!

Starting with this week, the baby is now called a fetus. The most critical part of the baby's development is over. This is a period of rapid growth, and the baby is about an inch or so in length at the beginning of the week and will be about 2 inches by the end of the week. The baby's head is about half its length. The eyelids will fuse shut, and the irises will begin to develop. Sometime during this week or the next week, blood will begin to circulate between the baby and uterus and the placenta starts to function.

http://www.pregnancyguideonline.com/wk6.htm

 

[Care4all]

Week 12
(counting from first day of last menstrual period)
Around 10 Weeks After Conception

Fetal Development: By this point, nearly all of the organs and structures of the fetus are formed. They will continue to grow and develop until delivery. Fingers and toes have separated and hair and nails begin to grow. The genitals begin to take on their gender characteristics. Amniotic fluid begins to accumulate as the baby's kidneys begin to produce and excrete urine. The muscles in the intestinal walls begin to practice peristalsis - contractions within the intestines that digest food.

 

[Immanuel]

Here's an idea, how about letting the voters have a voice on abortion for once? Or does that prospect scare you too much?

because voters are ignorant and undereducated. let's just get this out there. all opinions are not created equal. You have the medical profession, comprised of some of the smartest and more well-informed minds in the country dealing with this issue. You think your opinion has value? You think you should be able to vote on what OTHER people do with their body?

I cannot compromise with you and say, "oh well big deal it is just a fetus", because it is not. It is a developing human being in the early stages of life.

You say you want compromise, but what you seem to really want is for people who believe in the right to life to simply cave in to things that they believe are extremely immoral.

Except, it is a fetus. That DEFINES fetus. Ignorant people have this habit of making up definitions. No, it's not just a little human. In its early stages, it looks like a fish, complete with gill slits. It is tissue. Brain function has not developed. The tissue is not viable at all for survival outside the mother.

I hope you realize that by the time most women find out that they are pregnant, the so-called clump of cells has developed into something that actually can be identified as a human being. If is no longer just a "clump of cells". You do... don't you?

By the time a woman has missed her first period, the clump of cells has taken one week to travel to the uterus, and has been implanting for one week. It is a small disk made of two layers. Not only can it not be identified as human, but it can't be identified without a microscope.

As someone else mentioned, later stages appear like any other mammal. If you have ever seen a premie which unfortunately has not matured in the uterus enough to survive outside it, you know they appear alien. But you don't know these facts. You don't know much about the topic at all, and yet you believe your opinion matters.

I have seen an unborn human being or at least a part of one, just after the mother and father found out a child was on the way... it was in my bed when my wife and I awoke. My wife lost our first child about a week after missing her period. It was rather bloody and we didn't exactly exam it as we were kind of heartbroken. And guess, what, it is pretty easy to say it didn't look human. It kind of relieves the pain somewhat. But, it was still human... the DOCTORS ACTUALLY CONFIRMED THAT! Can you believe that? It wasn't an alien. It was human. Go figure!

Most women discover they are pregnant well after we did. We were newlyweds and really wanted children so shortly after missing the first period, we had a test done. Three days later we woke up to bloody sheets. Just enough time to be thrilled to death that we were going to be parents.

Regardless of any of that, it is still a human being regardless of what you think and nothing you say can change that fact.

So what if it looks like any other mammal? It still looks human and it is still human. It won't become a cat or a dog or a whale or any other species. It is human thus... it looks like a human in the early stages of life.

You don't seem to know much about the topic at all, yet you have the mistaken impression that anyone gives a damn about your extremely biased opinion.

Care's description pretty much guts your so-called case.

Immie

 

[JakeStarkey]

The reality rests somewhere between smarterthanhick and Immanuel. Roe v. Wade is fact, legitimate, will not be overturned. I suspect that most Americans believe abortion should be permitted within certain limitations, probably rape, incest, and if continued pregnancy would harm the mother. Small minority difference simply don't matter in the larger debate.

 

[Madeline]

I see, so you get to determine what is human life and at what stage it is worth protecting. If an unborn child isn't human life then what is it? Something between "conception and birth"? Wow, thats insightful.

Here's an idea, how about letting the voters have a voice on abortion for once? Or does that prospect scare you too much?

constitutional rights are up for a vote now?

theHawk, I presume you're a man? If the possibility of an unwanted pregnancy so horrifies you, QUIT FUCKING WOMEN. All forms of birth control are somewhat less than 1090% effective, even sterilization.

If the mysoginsts stopped fucking they could no longer reproduce and we'd stamp out Woman-Hatred in a single generation. Works for me.

BTW, theHawk, did you ask every lover you have ever had what birth control she was using BEFORE fucking her? Did YOU Always Wear a Condom? Did you teach your sons to do this as well?

Unwanted pregnancy is not a virus one catches, yanno. Dislike abortion? Then take PERSONAL RESPONSIBLITY to assure no women you stick your dick in ever has to face that horror -- and do not fuck anyone on a whim. Stay in touch for at least nine months with everyone you fuck, to visibly see they have no baby, as sometimes the chick does not show.

In short, weave your bizarre and unrealistic beliefs into YOUR life and YOUR patterns of conduct and stay the fuck out of the lives of women you don't know, who owe you Zippity-Do-Da in the way of obedience.

Drag those knuckles around on your OWN bedroom carpet, theHawk.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

At what point has brain function developed enough that abortion is no longer okay for you?

Actually, I see criteria for abortion where the medical community draws the cutoff, which is reliant on the viability of the fetus outside the womb.

I have seen an unborn human being or at least a part of one, just after the mother and father found out a child was on the way... it was in my bed when my wife and I awoke. My wife lost our first child about a week after missing her period. It was rather bloody and we didn't exactly exam it as we were kind of heartbroken. And guess, what, it is pretty easy to say it didn't look human. It kind of relieves the pain somewhat. But, it was still human... the DOCTORS ACTUALLY CONFIRMED THAT! Can you believe that? It wasn't an alien. It was human. Go figure!

Most women discover they are pregnant well after we did. We were newlyweds and really wanted children so shortly after missing the first period, we had a test done. Three days later we woke up to bloody sheets. Just enough time to be thrilled to death that we were going to be parents.

Regardless of any of that, it is still a human being regardless of what you think and nothing you say can change that fact.

So what if it looks like any other mammal? It still looks human and it is still human. It won't become a cat or a dog or a whale or any other species. It is human thus... it looks like a human in the early stages of life.

You don't seem to know much about the topic at all, yet you have the mistaken impression that anyone gives a damn about your extremely biased opinion.

Care's description pretty much guts your so-called case.

Immie

I'm sorry for your loss.

That aside, Care's copy and paste in no way refutes anything I've said. In your own description, I couldn't help but notice you contradicted yourself. You refer to the fetus you saw as "part of" a human being. You acknowledge it looks like any other mammal and in the next sentence claim it *really* looks human. Well which is it? Does it look like any mammal or does it look human? Last I checked, the two were easy to differentiate. Does it look human or like part of one? Did it look human or did it look like a bloody mess of tissue?

And this is exactly the type of twisted reasoning I referred to. You are trying to convince yourself that this traumatic experience was not as foreign as it appeared, which explains the inherent contradictions. You are understandably upset by the personal experience and would naturally take the stance that such outcomes are bad. But what is emotional and traumatic and horrible for you is not the same for others. Because at the end of the day, you know for a fact that the bloody mess you saw was not a human being. You know what humans look like, and what you saw was not it. The doctors might have told you it was human tissue, but it was not a human being. You can't even claim that fetus was developing into a human being for the sheer fact of its unfortunate fate. It could not and did not become a human being.

 

[Madeline]

Only an anarchist would say they don't want government involved in people's lives any any aspect. It is disingenuous to compare laws to punish violent behavior in society to that of government institutions and agencies intruding on the private sector or private lives. Punishing an individual for ending another human life isn't comparable to the Federal government running a bank or motor company.

the Hawk is losing the argument. An unborn is not simply "another human life." It is unborn, thus it is something, for sure, between conception and birth.

The right question is this: are all abortions wrong? Of course not, or human reason would stare. If an unborn threatens the mother's life, she takes precedence every time in every situation, unless she decides otherwise. Not you, not me, not the state.

I see, so you get to determine what is human life and at what stage it is worth protecting. If an unborn child isn't human life then what is it? Something between "conception and birth"? Wow, thats insightful.

Here's an idea, how about letting the voters have a voice on abortion for once? Or does that prospect scare you too much?

This nauseating over-sentimentalizing of conception is the Horse Chestnut mysoginists have been urping up since Time Immemorial. Why is it that when the baby is born you no longer give a shit about human life? Or in the case of female babies, you hate them when they reach maturity and become sexually active? If "human life is precious" why aren't you nutters running around with your hair on fire over Armed Combat or the Death Penalty?

Are you even a little acquainted with the history of abortion in the US, theHawk?

Before 1973, ALL rich women but no poor and very few middle class women could get a LEGAL abortion...all one needed was the cash to fly out of the country. There are tons of old rumors as to why exactly Mrs. Moneybags had to recuperate from a mysterious surgery over in Cuba or Paris for a week. The only abortion procedure available was dilation and cutterage...a vaccum aspiration was not available. No abortificant pills, etc. The women who underwent these procedures needed almost as much time to recuperate as if they had had an appendectomy.

The poor and middle class were relegated to abortionists. Some were decent health care providers but even so, none provided a hospital setting for the surgery or the recovery. Those women who did not die on the table often died or suffered harm from post-op infections, etc. Many/most/all state laws prohibitting abortion were adopted to serve the interests of Medical Doctors, who resented the loss of business to midwives and abortionists. These laws had ZERO to do with "the sanctity of human life". They were enacted to give Medical Doctors an exclusive stranglehold on profits from women's health care, and to criminalize the work of women and non-MDs Men who performed abortions.

The image of a rusty coat hanger is REAL. Women did submit themselves to such depravity...and that was not all. Some chicks tried to self-abort by douching with a caustic...and died the most horrific deaths imaginable.

After adjusting for population growth, the rate of abortion in the US every decade since 1960 has remained unchanged. The facts on rates of illegal abortions are admittedly hazy, but it cannot seriously be argued that Mysoginists are after an End to Abortion. None of their efforts are aimed at reducing the incidence of unplanned, unprotected sex. The choices available In Real Life are ONLY safe, legal abortion on demand OR illegal abortions for the poor and legal ones for the rich. An "End To Abortion" is about as likely as an "End To Sex".

What Woman-Haters are actually after is a return of the era in which hundreds of thousands of women died in abortion procedures so unsafe and revolting even to think of that they shock even the most jaded viewer. They want poor and middle class women to fear sex and pregnancy, and to believe again that someone else is running their lives. Mysoginists seek to return to an era before Roe, in which (they believe) Men oppressed Women and Women stayed in the kitchen and never spoke an opinion aloud.

FUCK THAT.

No genie the size of Women's Liberation EVER gets put back in the bottle. American chicks are NEVER going to sign up to wear a burka for life, you hateful, ignorant fuckwhit.

If you, as a Man, Hate Women..then FUCK OTHER MEN.

Don't like us now that we are mouthy and uppity? Go live in some fantasy all-gay male enclave with zero females and leave us chicks in dignity and peace.

You need to worry more about where you stick your dick, theHawk. Let me worry about how I manage my womb, and we'll both be happier.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

To add to what Madeline is saying: it has been clearly documented that the rate of abortions has not significantly changed in the US compared to when it was illegal. The only thing that has changed is that WOMEN DIE LESS. So seeing as no uppity law you attempt to force on people is going to actually accomplish anything anyway, the question you should be asking yourselves is "do I want to bring about a policy that will indirectly result in the deaths of women?" You can claim what SHOULD happen, but here in reality, we react to what DOES happen. Your choice:should those women die for an abortion or not?

 

[Madeline]

To add to what Madeline is saying: it has been clearly documented that the rate of abortions has not significantly changed in the US compared to when it was illegal. The only thing that has changed is that WOMEN DIE LESS. So seeing as no uppity law you attempt to force on people is going to actually accomplish anything anyway, the question you should be asking yourselves is "do I want to bring about a policy that will indirectly result in the deaths of women?" You can claim what SHOULD happen, but here in reality, we react to what DOES happen. Your choice:should those women die for an abortion or not?

Less vitriol than my post, and yet more sense...who is this Masked USMB-er?

*Wavies to the reality-connected Smarter than Hick*


If Men Could Get Pregnant, Abortion Would Be a Sacrament.

 

[Father Time]

"than 1090% effective,"

I shudder to think of what a birth control that's 1090% effect would look like.

I have a feeling it would involve mass genital mutilation or something like that.

 

[Father Time]

I think abortion should stay legal but to pretend everyone who's against abortion is a misogynist who secretly wants to return to ye olde oppressive times etc. etc. is just... well... stupid.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

I agree, Mr. Time, but that's not how I read Madeline's point. I believe she is correct in believing that these "morals" would not be in place if the historically dominant gender had to personally deal with the consequences of pregnancy. Do you disagree?

 

[Madeline]

"than 1090% effective,"

I shudder to think of what a birth control that's 1090% effect would look like.

I have a feeling it would involve mass genital mutilation or something like that.

LOL. Ah cannot proofread stuff written by me. Ahm math-impaired. Ah meant to say "100%".

*Winks*

 

[Madeline]

I think abortion should stay legal but to pretend everyone who's against abortion is a misogynist who secretly wants to return to ye olde oppressive times etc. etc. is just... well... stupid.

Perhaps it is unfair. Who is going to react well to images of medical waste from a vacuum aspiration or late-term abortion? Of course people can be propagandized.

But it's been forty fucking years. Time for the sheeple to wake the fuck up, donca think?

 

[Madeline]

I agree, Mr. Time, but that's not how I read Madeline's point. I believe she is correct in believing that these "morals" would not be in place if the historically dominant gender had to personally deal with the consequences of pregnancy. Do you disagree?

Some lucky chick is this guy's Mom, and likely others are his wife, daughter and woman friend. It takes compassion and respect to reach this POV...and very few men possess enough of either towards womankind, IMO.

 

[Immanuel]

The reality rests somewhere between smarterthanhick and Immanuel. Roe v. Wade is fact, legitimate, will not be overturned. I suspect that most Americans believe abortion should be permitted within certain limitations, probably rape, incest, and if continued pregnancy would harm the mother. Small minority difference simply don't matter in the larger debate.

Except, that I am pretty much middle of the road on this.

The dude that thinks he is so smart, did not even read my post before opening his mouth.

I never said anything at all about banning abortions or overturning Roe. That is not going to work and have now said that at least three times in this thread. In an ideal world abortion would be a thing of the past, but this is not an ideal world.

Pro-lifers have to realize that abortion is here to stay. Their ("our") best hope is to change the world through education AND compassion. Pro-lifers have to give up the dream of eliminating abortion and focus on reducing abortions. Maybe someday we will have that ideal world, but it is not going to come by force.

Immie