Christian questions

How can you hate something that shouldn't affect you, since you don't believe it's the truth anyway?

I guess that depends on how many christians are out forcing their beliefs onto people.


hear any good "athiest in the military" jokes lately? I can give you examples of christians taking an offensive approach to non-christians. Is there any way to blame a non-christian for that?

“Force” seems to be a strong word. Do you really mean to use the word “force”. Christians strongly encourage people to become Christians. They talk about their faith – their religion. You might hear about it everywhere you go. Still, I don’t see that anyone is “forcing” their religion on you.
 
clearly, you are a fan of the ole adage, "if you can't dazzle em with brilliance, baffle em with bullshit".

I take it you've totally missed the threads illustrating how the US military seems to think christianity is a prerequisite for serving our country.

Perhaps you prefer more concrete examples:

And last month, local pagans held a ritual celebration at a local hotel, Wise said. When the room they had rented was found to have a leaky roof, the hotel management moved them to an interior courtyard near the indoor pool. The courtyard was lined with balconies and one guest - at the sight of the witches in their ritual garb - threw a Bible at the group from the balcony, nearly hitting one of them, said Victoria Chance, who is called Taz.

In February 2005, the group’s contract for a spring celebration with the Hannibal Inn and Convention Center - now closed - was canceled after local ministers threatened to boycott the hotel, Wise said.

http://www.columbiatribune.com/2007/Nov/20071103Feat001.asp



Maybe manipulating the nomenclature will keep you from having to address the fact of christian harassment of non-christians...


Thankfully, we NEVER hear a bunch of boohoo martyr croc tears when christians are not allowed to make everyone else conform to their dogma junky beliefs. nope. that NEVER happens.

You gave one example of a classless alleged Christian lacking in character.

You gave an example of free enterprise.

You can easily find examples of people behaving badly. Still, these examples don’t constitute “forcing” religion on anyone.
 
“Force” seems to be a strong word. Do you really mean to use the word “force”. Christians strongly encourage people to become Christians. They talk about their faith – their religion. You might hear about it everywhere you go. Still, I don’t see that anyone is “forcing” their religion on you.

Yea.. I'm reminded of that every time an atheist wants to gather a group of like minded people while serving in the military..

Perhaps it's the same ole tired crybaby "But, the doorman didn't say Thank you Baby Jesus" that becomes an issue from the end of October to December 26.

Enjoy reading my posted link to an example of a local Pagan group trying to reserve a conference center in Hannibal, Mo... And, the subsequent reaction from christians.

Like I've said.. In this saturated nation dogma junkies it's a joke to look at our history and pretend that christians do not actively try to impose their beliefs onto the general population.

Maybe you can tell me why we still have blue laws..
 
You gave one example of a classless alleged Christian lacking in character.

You gave an example of free enterprise.

You can easily find examples of people behaving badly. Still, these examples don’t constitute “forcing” religion on anyone.

You can make as many excuses as necessary... Hell, Nazi germany was merely acting like Stanly Milgram told us they would, eh? No harm no foul?

No, I gave you an example of a CHRISTIAN reaction to seeing pagans in public. I gave you a specific example of a CHRISTIAN reaction to non-christians *GASP* renting convention space. Your contention is that they don't force their dogma onto the public and Im calling bullshit on your cycle of enabling that produces the same intolorance for non-christians now as it did back when they were burning witches.

FREE enterprise? would it have been mere FREE ENTERPRISE if I were to keep a christian out of a public convetion? No, THEN we'd be hearing about how picked on are poor christians are in this evil secular world.

And yes, having examples of such is exactly forcing their dogma onto the general population. Uh, what seems tobe YOUR standard of evidence? Burning bush's telling you that it is so?
 
You can make as many excuses as necessary... Hell, Nazi germany was merely acting like Stanly Milgram told us they would, eh? No harm no foul?

No, I gave you an example of a CHRISTIAN reaction to seeing pagans in public. I gave you a specific example of a CHRISTIAN reaction to non-christians *GASP* renting convention space. Your contention is that they don't force their dogma onto the public and Im calling bullshit on your cycle of enabling that produces the same intolorance for non-christians now as it did back when they were burning witches.

FREE enterprise? would it have been mere FREE ENTERPRISE if I were to keep a christian out of a public convetion? No, THEN we'd be hearing about how picked on are poor christians are in this evil secular world.

And yes, having examples of such is exactly forcing their dogma onto the general population. Uh, what seems tobe YOUR standard of evidence? Burning bush's telling you that it is so?

Yadda yadda. I’m sure that I could find examples of pagans and other non-Christian groups interrupting and interfering with Christian activities. Each basket has a few bad apples.

If non-Christian groups wanted to, they could put economic pressure on centers to prohibit Christian meetings. I just don’t see there being a big difference.
 
Yadda yadda. I’m sure that I could find examples of pagans and other non-Christian groups interrupting and interfering with Christian activities. Each basket has a few bad apples.

If non-Christian groups wanted to, they could put economic pressure on centers to prohibit Christian meetings. I just don’t see there being a big difference.

Go for it. This isn't sweden where churchs are burning down every weekend.


Pagan student settles case against Tennessee district
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/\news.aspx?id=14328

Feel free to tell me how this, and every nutter trying to inject dogma into the science classroom, is just free market capitalism or something..

Indeed, we all know how stark minority populations have the economic impact of christians in the US! Gosh, cold it be tht you don't want to see whta the big deal is because.... wait for it... you identify with christianity and don't mind when your team is the king of the hill?


How many more examples do you need to see?
 
Why don't we define "Forcing their Beliefs" first.

Last time I noticed in my neck of the woods here in the U.S.A., I hadn't seen anyone beheaded or tortured for not accepting the bible.

Last time I remember, Jesus emphatically told His followers to "Turn the other cheek". Doesn't sound very "forceful" from the very Author of Christianity, does it?

Also remember that all those folks in the O.T. that died as a result of God's judgement, are not necessarily going to eternal perishing, but have their moment of truth, and decision reserved. In fact all will or have faced the work of Christ at the cross and will be judged by their response, yeah or nay to His sacrifice for their souls eternal plight.

The N.T. says that during Jesus' 3 days of death, He proclaimed the Good news to those who were "asleep" or waiting.........Which is in reference to all those who died physically in the past in the O.T.. Jesus even condemned many of the people of His day and said that it would go easier for those that perished back in the time of Sodom, than for those nowadays who have actually seen Him and still refuse to believe in Him. Just look up in the book of John about the disciple/apostle Thomas when he first encountered the risen Jesus.

The "Ball" is in our court right now. What will we do with it? A time is coming when the "Ball" will be removed from our hands, and we won't have an opportunity to choose.
******
Bill Cosby told a humorous story dating back to his high school metal shop days. He had a metal shop teacher, that the boys called "Mr. Nasty". He was a mean old shop teacher, that constantly nagged the boys, and made metal shop not an enjoyable experience. "Mr. Nasty" had the reputation of getting confessions out of wrong doers with very cruel, but effective strategy.

One day, one of the boys in Cosby's class, decided to play a prank in Mr. Nasty's class. He brought a live bullet from home, and placed it in the metal shop furnace. All the boys in the class new about it, and quietly kept "tink, tink, tinking" away on their projects. There were little subtle chuckles between the boys as they worked on their projects and awaited that bullet's explosion in the furnace.

"POW!", that bullet went off. Mr. Nasty, immediately reacted after figuring out what caused the commotion. "Alright class, who put the bullet in the furnace?". "Tink, tink, tink", the boys quietly concentrated on their metal work projects. No one confessed, so Mr. Nasty applied his infamous method of finding the culprit. "Whoever put that bullet in the furnace must have a real rotten mother.". Immediately the perpetrator, screamed out, "I didn't put the bullet in the furnace, and my mother is not rotten!". Culprit caught............:rofl:
********
If that fictional scenario in the metal shop doesn't visualize what I expressed in my last thread, I don't know what will.

Folks deny things, cause it hurts to admit fault or wrong doing. The old saying, the best offence is a good defense, might have some similarities here. Only, instead of defense, lets replace it with "denial". Denial, is ........

1: refusal to satisfy a request or desire
2 a (1): refusal to admit the truth or reality (as of a statement or charge) (2): assertion that an allegation is false b: refusal to acknowledge a person or a thing : disavowal
3: the opposing by the defendant of an allegation of the opposite party in a lawsuit
4: self-denial
5: negation in logic
6: a psychological defense mechanism in which confrontation with a personal problem or with reality is avoided by denying the existence of the problem or reality
— in denial : refusing to admit the truth or reality of something unpleasant <a patient in denial about his health problems>


Mr. Nasty applied an untruth about the perpetrator's mother, but evoked a response of defense, as the perpetrator was carrying guilt or responsibility for the original offense, namely, placing the bullet in the furnace.

Now in the bible, God also makes some pretty brash statements about mankind. One comes to mind from the N.T. book of Romans, in the third chapter and verse number 23, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.". Now, contrary to Mr. Nasty's statement about this young man's, mother's reputation, God doesn't use unprincipled, or shrewdly premised methods to evoke responses from man. He flatly calls it as He sees and knows it!

Now what is man's defense? The bible is thousands of years old, and it's also written by mere man.

Here's where the denial happens. Clearly written in the scripture, it is stated that the bible is inspired by God, but human vessels/people have written down that inspiration for other fellow human beings to receive. Yes, under inspiration, the bible says. Now if God, is is not omnipotent, then I'd have my doubts about man being inspired by God, but I don't, because, I can't create a tree, an amoeba, a sun, a planet, an atom, nor life itself from mere atoms and molecules.

Mankind must refuse that last comment, because if mankind accepts it, then they have a metaphorical, hot potatoe to deal with.

If the bible is written by God-inspired men/women, then what must "I" Mr. Human Being, do with it, or deal with it's communicated contents?

Is that "Force"? If I was resisting what Jesus was saying about my spiritual condition in respect to God's desires, I might think that a "hard court press" was being exacted on me. :sad: Physically? No. Mentally? Most likely.

Now to be mentally battered, or feel or think there's exacting force on us, we must in certain ways, accept the statements that have evoked this mental disarray, don't we? I.E.. Romans 3:23......."For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.".

People who don't believe in God, or believe in some higher power other than the one revealed in the bible, will usually react with a certain amount of angst or upset, and claim the "Forcing" defense. What's evoking this upset......Well, it's pretty basic. "I'm not a sinner!" "I don't like being called a sinner!". So the old, "Your forcing your beliefs on me.", defense comes out in technicolor. Why? If one does not accept the bible as inspired by God, then why should one react with more than rejection, but transgress into emotional or reactive denial?

Thats the key to the "God inspired Word". It clearly cuts to the "quick". Paul said that God's word cuts so deep into a man/woman's soul that it is as though it pierced to the very marrow of the bones. Confucious sayings, astrology, fortune cookie nuggets of wisdom or hope, finding one's inner whatever, isn't what Jesus's earthly ministry for 33 human years was about. He flatly came to save the "sick". Sick in health?......Not really, although He convincingly displayed His divinity through the mass healings, mass feedings of thousands, yet He evoked anger, and rejection in many because of those deeds. He upset the "apple cart" of Jewish religious, life. The "sick" were the spiritually "sick", that He came to free or heal. He came to impart His Spirit, or new life in the sick, and or dead human spirits of mankind........the "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." masses of humanity. No one was exempt.

Paul said that one is either alive to the world or alive to God. There is no in-between.

I do understand, that "force" accusation, is in most cases the best defense for resisting the gospel or good news. It's a natural human response. The "force" is the uneasy feeling in the soul, when confronted with one's self smacked right up against what scripture says about us in respect to God's holiness. It's like "fight vs. flight". Of course there is another alternative......."Acceptance", that leads to repentance, which leads to salvation.

All the education or intellect in the world, doesn't negate the natural human beings innate nature. God says that no matter of smarts trumps, our innate, fallen nature before a holy and just God. Christ is the bridge between that "Grand Canyon" or gulf. He was the Passover Lamb. It was His protective blood that was symbolically sprinkled on the lintel posts of the children of Israel's homes while in Egypt when the "death angel" passed over and took the lives of the all the first born males in Egypt that didn't have that sprinkled blood as a protection.

The O.T. is filled with myriads of words, and happenings, pointing straight at Jesus's future incarnation/birth in Bethlehem. Prophets wrote of his birth, and even the form of death by crucifixion hundreds of years before His birth. Their writings of death by crucifixion wasn't even a form of Roman execution at the time of their writings. So much fullfilled prophecy, and so much more that awaits fullfilling. It is awesome to some and chilling to others.

Sadly, people will grab little snippets here and their from scripture and use it to deny, deny, deny.

I've yet to read a novel, and just read snippets and get the full gist of the author's intent.

Yes, your right. There is a force exacted......but it isn't physical, its internal...........it cuts right to the very marrow of man. Now other systems of belief, categorized as religions, do not duplicate or evoke this reaction. Why? Cause they are man made IMO. When man authors a system of belief, it will give accolades to humanity, and will raise humanity to a pedestal, as it has no other source of inspiration or direction but itself. It has no accountability, but to set it's own parameters.
The flaws in your argument is that you consider the Bible to be an authoritative source. The Bible was written by men over a period of 400 years. It is flawed, it is contradictory, it id bigoted and archaic.

You put too much faith for a living God in a dead book.
 
The flaws in your argument is that you consider the Bible to be an authoritative source. The Bible was written by men over a period of 400 years. It is flawed, it is contradictory, it id bigoted and archaic.

You put too much faith for a living God in a dead book.

Your reply was totally expected/anticipated and covered in my reply that you copy/pasted. :)

When man is confronted with scripture, he is placed at a sort of "crossroads" of conscience. He either starts to consider it's merits or blows it off. :)

Human free-will in action; a quality that Christians see as a gift from God. :)
 
Your reply was totally expected/anticipated and covered in my reply that you copy/pasted. :)

When man is confronted with scripture, he is placed at a sort of "crossroads" of conscience. He either starts to consider it's merits or blows it off. :)

Human free-will in action; a quality that Christians see as a gift from God. :)

yea.. scipture.. or rabid fundie christians outside the abortion clinic... yes, CLEARLY free will is a quality that christians enjoy...

homosexuality... heavy metal music... dungeons and dragons... yup.. the list of free will appreciated goes on and on and on and on and....
 
The answer is the Bible contends that God is fallible and that Jesus was created to save us from a God that has shown human emotions (according to the stories within).

And my contention is that God is real, Jesus was a great man - buit no God and the Bible is flawed (to put it nicely).

No, the Bible contends that God is infallible, and too complex for our pea-brains to assimilate. Hence the need for faith.

God does have human attributes, or rather, we have attributes of God, since we were made in his image.

Jesus was not created to save us from God. Jesus existed before the world began, and the plan all along was for him to save us from ourselves.
 
I paraphrased some of the quotes. This is my understanding of the Bible as it relates to your questions.

1. "Does God loathe Himself" - John the Evangelist discribes God as "Light" and "Love". 1John chapters 1-4

2. "Did God create Jesus to save man from Himself (God)? " - Jesus was not created he was begotten. He did indeed, "empty himself", came down from heaven and became man in order to save man from the effects of sin, that is spiritual and eternal death. Thus God should be viewed as a Father who does not want any one to die eternally. The path by which we are saved from the wrath of God involves believing God did this work, believing that Jesus paid the required price as our redeemer, his sinless death, to satisfy God's justice and our trusting in the results, rebirth (born again).

"Is damnation from God". Yes, it is God who condemns unrepentent, sinfull man to Hell for their sin. It is also God that provides a way back into his good graces. I find it interesting to note that Hell was not made for man but for Satan and the other fallen angels but man is going there because he follows the lies of the devil.

Since the fall of man in Genesis, our carnal nature was weakened and we tend toward sin or rebellion. I really intend to have a few words with Adam and Eve on the other side - like "what were you thinking".

4. "It seems like a bizarre dual-nature of a diety to at once condemn and pardon those that he created". God explicitly warned Adam and Eve about the consequences of eating that apple. But noooooo, it was good for food, pleasant to the eye and would open their eyes and make them like God. As Paul says in the Epistle to the Romans, through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin and so death spread to all men because all sinned. Even so through one act of righteousness (Jesus' obedience to be the blood sacrifice) the many will be made righteous (before God). Please read Romans chapters 1 throug 8 for a more detailed account.

For Midcan5: It was St Augustine that had the vision of the child on the shore line. He was contemplating the mystery of the Trinity.

Regards,

Pat
 
God is a myth, period. Did Jesus exist? Pretty sure he did. Was he the son of a god? Very doubtful. Did he die and come back to life? Even more doubtful. It's all in the hands of those who believe or don't. There are no right or wrongs IMO. Just believe what you want to believe and be done with it. All I ask is that Christians, Muslims and any other religions that prothelyse - just leave me the fuck alone please....:cool: :cool:
 
Your reply was totally expected/anticipated and covered in my reply that you copy/pasted. :)

When man is confronted with scripture, he is placed at a sort of "crossroads" of conscience. He either starts to consider it's merits or blows it off. :)

Human free-will in action; a quality that Christians see as a gift from God. :)

Unless you do not believe as they do.
 
No, the Bible contends that God is infallible, and too complex for our pea-brains to assimilate. Hence the need for faith.

God does have human attributes, or rather, we have attributes of God, since we were made in his image.

Jesus was not created to save us from God. Jesus existed before the world began, and the plan all along was for him to save us from ourselves.

And your beliefs are based on what? Not proof, not evidence...just your own fantasy.
 
Faith, just as you place your faith in your ability to understand the creation of man and universe.

If I'm going to follow somebody blindly, I think I'd prefer to follow a perfect being, rather than irrational and innately evil men.
 
God is a myth, period. Did Jesus exist? Pretty sure he did. Was he the son of a god? Very doubtful. Did he die and come back to life? Even more doubtful. It's all in the hands of those who believe or don't. There are no right or wrongs IMO. Just believe what you want to believe and be done with it. All I ask is that Christians, Muslims and any other religions that prothelyse - just leave me the fuck alone please....:cool: :cool:

If you really wanted to be left alone, you probably shouldn't attack Christians and Christianity all the time.
 
If you really wanted to be left alone, you probably shouldn't attack Christians and Christianity all the time.

Put on earplugs when the local church rings its bells. Don’t answer the door when Jehovah’s Witnesses come knocking. Avoid flipping channels on your television on Sunday morning. Try to ignore “In God We Trust” on your currency. Close your ears when you come to “under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance.
 
"It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so".

Robert A. Heinlein, author


Although I agree with that observation, I key on the word legislate. Our constitution forbids a state sponsored religion but there is nothing to impede a duly elected congress from enacting legislation or confirming judges that reflect the agenda of a particular religion. The ban on partial birth abortion comes to mind.

The Christian Right movement seems to be very involved and somewhat successful in getting candidates into office or seated on court benches that reflect their view of what is right and proper for the country.

While I view the CR as generally benign as far as my situation is concerned others may feel their ox is being gored.

What would happen if a large latino or Muslim contingent made it's way into the government legislative and/or judicial branches. Things in America would certainly change but would that be bad?

Instead of a fence between the USA and Mexico there would be four lane one way bridges across the border, south to north with only a green light for traffic signals. Women would have to dress a lot more modestly, no more bikini's or skin flicks on the airways.
I could go on forever. Execute dope dealers, cut off the limbs of thieves, especialy corporate ones, ad infinitum.

Time to take my meds.
 

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