Catholics and Fundamentalists: How do we get to heaven?

[5stringJeff]

Hobbit already addressed the Evangelical/fundementalist differences. But let me address something else from the original post: the differences between salvation, justification, and sanctification.

Salvation is the process of being saved. There are two parts to salvation in life: justification and sanctification.
Justification is an instantaneous, one-time happening, which is the result of God's effort alone. It is a legal declaration that one is no longer guilty of wrongdoing. God can legally declare us innocent because the price for our sins has been paid already by Jesus Christ. Therefore, as the Bible mentions, we are justified freely, by faith. The work that has been done is 100% God's work; we only accept the justification by believing.
Sanctification is the process through which a believer, once justified, is made more and more like God in behavior and attitude. This is what we would refer to as "works." Sanctification is a process which involves both God's work (through the Holy Spirit, which indwells all Christians) and the believer, who chooses to modify his/her behavior, thoughts, etc. It is fully expected of every believer to travel down the road of sanctification, by ceasing to sin.

I would also like to point out the false dichotomy in the original article (Catholics vs. fundementalists). Catholicism is a denomination (or more appropriately, a branch) of Christianity. Fundamentalism is a school of thought, as is evangelicalism. There are fundemental Catholics in the world, just as there are fundamental Protestants and Orthodox. There are also Evangelical Catholics, Evangelical Protestants, etc.

 

[archangel]

Hobbit already addressed the Evangelical/fundementalist differences. But let me address something else from the original post: the differences between salvation, justification, and sanctification.

Salvation is the process of being saved. There are two parts to salvation in life: justification and sanctification.
Justification is an instantaneous, one-time happening, which is the result of God's effort alone. It is a legal declaration that one is no longer guilty of wrongdoing. God can legally declare us innocent because the price for our sins has been paid already by Jesus Christ. Therefore, as the Bible mentions, we are justified freely, by faith. The work that has been done is 100% God's work; we only accept the justification by believing.
Sanctification is the process through which a believer, once justified, is made more and more like God in behavior and attitude. This is what we would refer to as "works." Sanctification is a process which involves both God's work (through the Holy Spirit, which indwells all Christians) and the believer, who chooses to modify his/her behavior, thoughts, etc. It is fully expected of every believer to travel down the road of sanctification, by ceasing to sin.

I would also like to point out the false dichotomy in the original article (Catholics vs. fundementalists). Catholicism is a denomination (or more appropriately, a branch) of Christianity. Fundamentalism is a school of thought, as is evangelicalism. There are fundemental Catholics in the world, just as there are fundamental Protestants and Orthodox. There are also Evangelical Catholics, Evangelical Protestants, etc.

you are right and you are wrong...Catholicism is the founding church of all Christians...not a branch...then again it is a branch...Paul and Peter were the founders of the Catholic church...other denominations branched off the original "Christian" church "Catholic"...for political as well as in house fighting as to what the gospel and bible interpretations said...this is not to say that only one "Branch" is correct in the interpretation...all is good!

 

[Nienna]

I'm in an interesting position, having been raised Catholic, but as an adult, being called to an evangelical church. I did not leave Catholicism because I was upset with the beliefs, practices, etc. I joined the church I go to because my family felt comfortable there.
I do disagree with some of the teachings of the Catholic Church, but that wasn't enough to make me leave it. I think people think of the word "church" as being an organization or a building. It's really just a group of people. I was happy to worhsip in a Catholic church growing up, and grateful for the good education I received in Catholic school. But now, God wants us to be with a different group of people, to influence and be influenced. Different denominations may be nothing more than ways that God reaches out to His people; some things are more attractive than others to different sets of people. God enjoys variety in His relationships. Different parts of the Body have different functions. If we all keep our eyes focused on the Head, we won't be so caught up in "the liver is better than the Achilles tendon" (my church is better than your church) way of thinking.
Hope that makes sense.

 

[archangel]

I'm in an interesting position, having been raised Catholic, but as an adult, being called to an evangelical church. I did not leave Catholicism because I was upset with the beliefs, practices, etc. I joined the church I go to because my family felt comfortable there.
I do disagree with some of the teachings of the Catholic Church, but that wasn't enough to make me leave it. I think people think of the word "church" as being an organization or a building. It's really just a group of people. I was happy to worhsip in a Catholic church growing up, and grateful for the good education I received in Catholic school. But now, God wants us to be with a different group of people, to influence and be influenced. Different denominations may be nothing more than ways that God reaches out to His people; some things are more attractive than others to different sets of people. God enjoys variety in His relationships. Different parts of the Body have different functions. If we all keep our eyes focused on the Head, we won't be so caught up in "the liver is better than the Achilles tendon" (my church is better than your church) way of thinking.
Hope that makes sense.

if the shoe fits wear it...I for one stay with the Catholic church cause' I do like a beer or two...and like to dance...and have a smoke from time to time(cigs)..
I know they may be bad for me...but I still like em....still very healthy despite a industrial accident that put a damper on things...but survived the VN era praying to God to help me..he did and I remain faithful!

 

[Hobbit]

you are right and you are wrong...Catholicism is the founding church of all Christians...not a branch...then again it is a branch...Paul and Peter were the founders of the Catholic church...other denominations branched off the original "Christian" church "Catholic"...for political as well as in house fighting as to what the gospel and bible interpretations said...this is not to say that only one "Branch" is correct in the interpretation...all is good!

Those points are points of doctrine. Protestants believe that Roman Catholicism is not the direct result of the early church founded by the apostles and that Catholicism as it appears today was founded by Constantine (the Roman emporer, not the movie character portrayed by Keanu Reeves). However, as a non-fundamentalist Pentecostal, I believe that this difference in belief is merely a point of historical interest and has no relevance in salvation. Despite the writings of the fundies, I believe Catholics, like any denomination that believes in Christ, are saved and will go to Heaven.

 

[Gabriella84]

Despite the writings of the fundies, I believe Catholics, like any denomination that believes in Christ, are saved and will go to Heaven.

It is not merely enough to become a member of a certain religion to be saved. That is merely talking the talk. You have to walk the walk. You have to honestly be a follower of God and believe he is your Lord and Saviour.
Too many religions attach "stipulations" to this. You can't eat or drink this, or you can't do that. That is more fundamentalist than Jesus would have wanted. Some "religions" speak in tongues or handle snakes.
God knows we are all sinners. We will all succumb to temptation. Keep trying to overcome temptation and you will be saved.

 

[Hobbit]

It is not merely enough to become a member of a certain religion to be saved. That is merely talking the talk. You have to walk the walk. You have to honestly be a follower of God and believe he is your Lord and Saviour.
Too many religions attach "stipulations" to this. You can't eat or drink this, or you can't do that. That is more fundamentalist than Jesus would have wanted. Some "religions" speak in tongues or handle snakes.
God knows we are all sinners. We will all succumb to temptation. Keep trying to overcome temptation and you will be saved.

You misunderstood me. What I meant by my belief that Catholics would go to Heaven was a dispute with fundamentalists. Belief in Christ gets you into Heaven. Some fundies believe that Catholics (now, I mean good Catholics who DO walk the walk) won't go the Heaven because of some of their doctrine, which I believe is bullcrap. They believe in Christ, and that's good enough for me.

As for the speaking in tongues, I'll excuse you this one time for lumping us in with snake handlers. Speaking in tongues is Biblical. The apostles did it. Those they evangelized did it. In fact, the branch of denominations that believes in it is called 'Pentecostal' after the revival on the Day of Pentecost where thousands of newly evangelized Christians spoke in tongues.

Snake-handling, however, is a contradiction to the scripture where Jesus refused to jump off a cliff since you're not supposed to tempt God.

 

[archangel]

Those points are points of doctrine. Protestants believe that Roman Catholicism is not the direct result of the early church founded by the apostles and that Catholicism as it appears today was founded by Constantine (the Roman emporer, not the movie character portrayed by Keanu Reeves). However, as a non-fundamentalist Pentecostal, I believe that this difference in belief is merely a point of historical interest and has no relevance in salvation. Despite the writings of the fundies, I believe Catholics, like any denomination that believes in Christ, are saved and will go to Heaven.

Roman History 101...Constatine the Emperor did not found Christianity...he merely gave into his wifes wishes...she had converted to Christianity and he was appalled by the sacraficing of Christians in the Arena...he had compassion for his wifes new found religion and made it the religion of Rome...As he followed his wife and converted...so your argument does not hold water...fact is Christianity was founded by the Apostles and the religion was named Catholic although all became known as Christians! If we want to get technical I suppose we are all Jews....since Jesus was a Jew........

 

[-Cp]

You misunderstood me. What I meant by my belief that Catholics would go to Heaven was a dispute with fundamentalists. Belief in Christ gets you into Heaven. Some fundies believe that Catholics (now, I mean good Catholics who DO walk the walk) won't go the Heaven because of some of their doctrine, which I believe is bullcrap. They believe in Christ, and that's good enough for me.

As for the speaking in tongues, I'll excuse you this one time for lumping us in with snake handlers. Speaking in tongues is Biblical. The apostles did it. Those they evangelized did it. In fact, the branch of denominations that believes in it is called 'Pentecostal' after the revival on the Day of Pentecost where thousands of newly evangelized Christians spoke in tongues.

Snake-handling, however, is a contradiction to the scripture where Jesus refused to jump off a cliff since you're not supposed to tempt God.

Not to derail this thread - perhaps we could start a new one - but the apostles did a LOT of things that aren't necessarily for today or happening today... just because they did things, that doesn't mean that God still uses those same things today...

 

[KarlMarx]

If "fundamentalists" are overzealous extremists who have a narrow interpretation of their beliefs and are intolerant of any one that disagrees, even slightly, then I believe that most liberals are fundamentalists....

 

[deaddude]

Those points are points of doctrine. Protestants believe that Roman Catholicism is not the direct result of the early church founded by the apostles and that Catholicism as it appears today was founded by Constantine (the Roman emporer, not the movie character portrayed by Keanu Reeves). However, as a non-fundamentalist Pentecostal, I believe that this difference in belief is merely a point of historical interest and has no relevance in salvation. Despite the writings of the fundies, I believe Catholics, like any denomination that believes in Christ, are saved and will go to Heaven.

Dude you have seriously bismirched my religion (comic book nerdism) John Constantine was originally a comic book character, DC comics I believe.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

If "fundamentalists" are overzealous extremists who have a narrow interpretation of their beliefs and are intolerant of any one that disagrees, even slightly, then I believe that most liberals are fundamentalists....

Docrtrinnaire socialists all the way. equality by any means necessary is their highest good.

 

[Hobbit]

Not to derail this thread - perhaps we could start a new one - but the apostles did a LOT of things that aren't necessarily for today or happening today... just because they did things, that doesn't mean that God still uses those same things today...

It's that kind of attitude that keeps things like that from happening. People say, "Oh, that kind of stuff was good for them, but it just doesn't happen anymore." I believe that God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow and that the methods used throughout time are still open to us, it's just that modern Christians have taken a far too casual approach to the faith. It is my belief that if you take God seriously, he'll take you seriously. Tongues, healing, exorcisms...it's all still possible and the belief that it's not is all that's preventing it.

Call me crazy if you will, but I've seen it with my own two eyes, and I don't think the argument that I'm hallucinating will hold much water.

As for Constantine, the way the story goes is that he saw a cross in the sky before a battle, and so put the emblem on the shields of all his soldiers. They won the battle most decisively, so Constantine immediately converted to Christianity and made it the official religion of the Roman Empire, thus starting the Roman Catholic Church. Whether that's fully true, symbolic, or made up is up to debate, but that's how the story goes, anyway.

 

[archangel]

It's that kind of attitude that keeps things like that from happening. People say, "Oh, that kind of stuff was good for them, but it just doesn't happen anymore." I believe that God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow and that the methods used throughout time are still open to us, it's just that modern Christians have taken a far too casual approach to the faith. It is my belief that if you take God seriously, he'll take you seriously. Tongues, healing, exorcisms...it's all still possible and the belief that it's not is all that's preventing it.

Call me crazy if you will, but I've seen it with my own two eyes, and I don't think the argument that I'm hallucinating will hold much water.

As for Constantine, the way the story goes is that he saw a cross in the sky before a battle, and so put the emblem on the shields of all his soldiers. They won the battle most decisively, so Constantine immediately converted to Christianity and made it the official religion of the Roman Empire, thus starting the Roman Catholic Church. Whether that's fully true, symbolic, or made up is up to debate, but that's how the story goes, anyway.

as for the "cross in the sky" during a battle ,this is akin to "Urban Legends"...Constantine converted to protect his wife from the Arena Specticle...as she had already converted...as for "Roman Catholic" you are correct it did become the official religion of the Roman Empire!