Capitalism vs Corporatism

[sealybobo]

The GOP is set to complete what the railroad barons pushed the Grant administration to start: to take democracy and its institutions of governance from the hands of the human citizen/voters the Founders fought and died for, and give it to the very types of monopolistic corporations the Founders fought against when they led the Tea Party revolt against the East India Company in Boston Harbor in 1773.

So, how does this compare with Obama's gift to the insurance industry? At least Grant didn't mandate that we all ride the rails.

The GOP have moved so far to the right that today Democrats aren't liberal anymore. We call them corporate Democrats. In some ways, no better than the GOP. But if you know how the game is rigged, you know they have no choice.

And who helped the Insurance Industry block real healthcare reform? Republicans did. I bet not one of them voted yes to any healthcare reform, even though reform was long overdue.

But don't blame Obama for writing the healthcare reform so that it also benefits the insurance companies. I thought you wanted them to be profitable? One way to lower the costs per person is to have everyone participate.

And don't forget the GOP were in favor of the individual mandate until Obama agreed to it. Then they flop flopped on the mandate. Hell, Romney invented it.

And we had enough seats in the Senate to get real good healthcare reform, but the lobbyists got to blue dog democrats like Max Baucus.

But what we got was better than the status quo that the GOP were trying to protect. In the long run, its going to keep healthcare costs in check. That is unless we put the GOP back in charge of our government.

Clinton and Obama go along with the GOP because if they don't, they get Carter'ed or worse, Kennedied. I am furious with all the stuff Clinton went along with. Deregulations, corporate tax breaks, looting the ss fund, welfare reform, nafta. But none of these things make me want to vote Republicans because they are the ones that pushed for these things.

If Democrats don't get along with the robber barons, they get ignored. Sort of like how they are ignoring Ron Paul.

 

[konradv]

:yawn:

It's as if people believe if they repeat the same thing over and over, it will some how become true. Yes, public campaign finance reform laws will stop corporations from buying politicians because OF COURSE! we have judges and prosecutors and jails! And politicians and large corporate donators caught in misconduct and scandals ALWAYS go to jail! See!

treating a symptom of the disease will not cure the disease. Keep table pounding.

But you offer no cure either. If the thought of going to jail won't bother the politicians, that's their concern. They and you will just have to be proven wrong. This isn't about thinking all bad actors will be rooted out, just that it wouldn't be allowed as a matter of course. You seem to have given up. Why should we listen?

Actually, I did. You just don't seem to get. Review my posts and come back and try again. I have given up on corporatism. You want to publically finance it. Which works wonders for the cause of corporatism.

Now if you'd just explain how, we might have something. I'm afraid without some explanation, I might as well just read C&Ps. Aren't we here to discuss? Telling me to read something isn't discussion and certainly doesn't tell me you understand what you read.

 

[Contumacious]

Nope its the people.

we rent them out

hummmmmmmmmmm ---the people------we------

So is we , white man?

.

 

[Mr. Peepers]

The answer, is to get the government OUT OF BUSINESS and put them back in their original and proper role. This restores capitalism, which is the best system we've nearly never had.

Horse shit. You can have capitalism or some form of democracy... you can't have both - democracy is not possible within free market capitalism and what you're calling for is unfettered capitalism. The already abused and suffering proles of this country would never stand for that. They saw what the robber barons did up to the great depression, which is the closest we've come to unfettered capitalism. What we need is to get all private money OUT of government. Fire all lobbyists. Period. Only real humans with a voter registration # can vote (or contribute to a presidential campaign)- and cap the limit at $100 per registration #. Done. Now the election process is now controlled by the people directly affected by PUBLIC policy instead protections by & for the moneyed interests and the 1%.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

But you offer no cure either. If the thought of going to jail won't bother the politicians, that's their concern. They and you will just have to be proven wrong. This isn't about thinking all bad actors will be rooted out, just that it wouldn't be allowed as a matter of course. You seem to have given up. Why should we listen?

Actually, I did. You just don't seem to get. Review my posts and come back and try again. I have given up on corporatism. You want to publically finance it. Which works wonders for the cause of corporatism.

Now if you'd just explain how, we might have something. I'm afraid without some explanation, I might as well just read C&Ps. Aren't we here to discuss? Telling me to read something isn't discussion and certainly doesn't tell me you understand what you read.

Put someone in office that will begin to dismantle the madness. Other than that. It's going to break and the best we can hope for his to see capitalism re-emerge. Repeal the nonsense laws, not make more. It's really, even from your POV and solution, something that has to occur through popular understanding. We dont have it, so I suppose both of us get the moot point button.

 

[Truthmatters]

Nope its the people.

we rent them out

hummmmmmmmmmm ---the people------we------

So is we , white man?

.

who do you claim owns the air waves?

 

[konradv]

Corporations (or individuals for that matter) should be able to donate as much as they like to a campaign - they just shouldn't expect any favors in return.

And you expect to change human nature how? If they can't expect favors, they won't contribute, but since there's no way you could make that work, it's just "business as usual" without public financing.

You're right I cant change human nature...

I suppose it sucks living in a world where 99.9% of the public lack morals, ethics and integrity. A world where people need to buy favors and whom want to manipulate an economic model just to get ahead.

If I give someone something I expect nothing of significance in return. It's a gesture of kindness not a purchased favor for later..

Obama is a fantastic example of greedy asshole. The best example of this is his UAW bailout. UAW (and unions in general) vote and contribute Obama into office and Obama bails them out with American tax dollars -- not only that but creates another taxpayer funded program called Cash for Clunkers to stimulate demand for autos manufactured by -- no other than UAW.

That's why I say it's a non-partisan issue. I could say the same kinds of things about Republican presidents. Want the unions out? Go to public financing. Want corporations out? Go to public financing.

 

[Mac1958]

.

Yeah, this is a problem, and an underestimated problem at that. Corporatism has so badly bastardized capitalism that it has opened the door nice and wide for anti-capitalists to scream "See? Capitalism doesn't work!", as if this were capitalism. Corporatism has made capitalism terribly vulnerable, and we're at a tipping point.

And as far as editec's comment above about how both parties are involved, I couldn't agree more. I'd think the GOP has more to worry about here, since they're the party that (1) is more identified with corporations and (2) is more likely to be viewed as their apologists.

Those who are against REAL capitalism are licking their chops right now, guaranteed.

Yet another self-inflicted wound.

.

Well this is what happens when we allow our government to get involved in our economy..

Corporatism or corporate fascism wouldn't exist under a true Austrian School model...

Today it seems politicians just handout favors to the highest bidder (campaign funds/votes).. Thats why we had bailouts and programs like Cash For Clunkers - or even Obama playing grab-ass with GE while he demanded certain lightbulbs be banned.

Government needs to stay the fuck out of our economy...

Quite frankly I believe those in power who hate capitalism are doing everything in their power to destroy the model while they gain from it in the process.

The Cloward-Piven strategy is very much real....

The notion that everyone in office today is some benevolent capitalist is loonacy..

So, wouldn't public financing cure most of that? If our representitives aren't going hat-in-hand to big donors, they won't have as many expensive promises to keep, saving us money in the long run.

Yep, one thing I'd march in the streets for is the combination of STRICT TERM LIMITS and PUBLICLY-FUNDED ELECTIONS. Take the money out of politics, and take the royalty out of DC. These people are not "special", yet being the incumbent gives them too many advantages. And enough of them spending their entire time in office campaigning for the next term. No thanks. One term, no pension, good bye, go to hell.

.

 

[Truthmatters]

Free airtime would change the whole game.

its how the majority of the money raised is spent

 

[konradv]

Well this is what happens when we allow our government to get involved in our economy..

Corporatism or corporate fascism wouldn't exist under a true Austrian School model...

Today it seems politicians just handout favors to the highest bidder (campaign funds/votes).. Thats why we had bailouts and programs like Cash For Clunkers - or even Obama playing grab-ass with GE while he demanded certain lightbulbs be banned.

Government needs to stay the fuck out of our economy...

Quite frankly I believe those in power who hate capitalism are doing everything in their power to destroy the model while they gain from it in the process.

The Cloward-Piven strategy is very much real....

The notion that everyone in office today is some benevolent capitalist is loonacy..

So, wouldn't public financing cure most of that? If our representitives aren't going hat-in-hand to big donors, they won't have as many expensive promises to keep, saving us money in the long run.

Yep, one thing I'd march in the streets for is the combination of STRICT TERM LIMITS and PUBLICLY-FUNDED ELECTIONS. Take the money out of politics, and take the royalty out of DC. These people are not "special", yet being the incumbent gives them too many advantages. And enough of them spending their entire time in office campaigning for the next term. No thanks. One term, no pension, good bye, go to hell.

I'm not really in favor of term limits. I don't like the idea of being told who I'm allowed to vote for. I think with public financing a lot of the incumbents' power goes away, when they can't make promises for cash. Take away their warchest and they're on a more equal footing with challengers. Of course, there'll always be an advantage of name recognition and pointing to accomplishments, but at least they won't be able to swamp them with cash, leading to a larger turnover.

 

[sealybobo]

If they didn't have to beg for money they'd have more time for our business and maybe read a bill once in a while! That's the bonus result of public financing. Sure lobbyists would still be in DC talking to our representitives. That's cool. No one is trying to take away their Freedom of Speech. It's just that when the "greasing of palms" takes place, we can take care of it the old fashioned way, with bribery prosecutions. They wouldn't be able to use the money for their campaign, so taking it would mean they're stuffing it in the own pockets, or freezers!!!, and dealt with like the criminals they'd be.

Great point. You can't stop someone from being corrupt. You can only hope they don't for fear of getting caught.

Financing their campaign is how the rich legally get away with greasing their palms. Do away with this and you are right, now its not legal anymore.

Funny the Supreme Courts Citizens United decision goes the exact opposite way. So obvious they are in the corporations pockets. So obvious our system is corrupt. And its not unions or socialists. Its greedy rich corporate robber barons. They've been around for hundreds of years. Our founding fathers warned us but notice the tea baggers don't mention this?

AActually, the tea party has been talking about it since the movement formed back in 07-08. The difference is they realize the "robber barons" are in office and the best way to get them out and keep any others out for good is to limit the size, scope and intrusion of government in the economy and in our liberties.

This is the difference.

We are talking about a corrupted government that has been given the power to interfere with our markets in almost everyway through regulation and subsiy measures and the monopolies that have long since bought our elected officials for these concessions in their favor. That is what corporatism is all about.

The answer, is to get the government OUT OF BUSINESS and put them back in their original and proper role. This restores capitalism, which is the best system we've nearly never had.

We can start by repealing all the nonsense stuffed under interstate commerce. Then, people have to realize the actual problem adn stop asking to fix a symptom. Prolly never happen though, prolly.

Wrong. You tea baggers and Ron Paul fanatics need to realize who is backing the tea party. Billionaires who want to kill our government so it is powerless to stop them. They want to run our government. They already do. And you want to make our government even more powerless to deal with the corporations that now run the show?

Of course they want to shrink the government so that it is powerless to regulate them. We understand that the government needs to shrink. But the GOP aren't going after waste. They are going after programs that help poor and middle class people. But they are leaving in place the real corporate waste/fraud/corruption. The great military industrial complex.

You think this will benefit the middle class?

What do you do? If you are middle class, you are not going to benefit from every man for himself survival of the fittest unregulated free market capitalism.

The New Deal, Unions, Liberals and Progressives are responsible for everything that made living in America great. First unions got a raise and good healthcare, and only then did your non union company match those benefits in order to not loose good talent to the unions. Or so their employees wouldn't unionize. Now that the unions are all but dead, so goes the entire American middle class. Free trade without government regulation sent 7 million good paying manufacturing jobs overseas. Its not about big or small government. That's about a government that works for the top 1% and pisses on the rest of us.

Right to work free market capitalism means the middle class gets poorer and the rich get richer.

 

[Contumacious]

Nope its the people.

we rent them out

hummmmmmmmmmm ---the people------we------

So is we , white man?

.

who do you claim owns the air waves?

The problems that existed prior to 1927 are no longer there . Technology has made the broadband spectrum unlimited.

So so long as you don't interfere with KOST 103.5 FM, start your own station and knock yourself out.

.

 

[Truthmatters]

You cant answer can you?

 

[Contumacious]

You cant answer can you?

I take it that English comprehension is not your forte. And unfortunately , I do not speak nazi German.

.

 

[Mr.Nick]

The GOP is set to complete what the railroad barons pushed the Grant administration to start: to take democracy and its institutions of governance from the hands of the human citizen/voters the Founders fought and died for, and give it to the very types of monopolistic corporations the Founders fought against when they led the Tea Party revolt against the East India Company in Boston Harbor in 1773.

So, how does this compare with Obama's gift to the insurance industry? At least Grant didn't mandate that we all ride the rails.

The GOP have moved so far to the right that today Democrats aren't liberal anymore. We call them corporate Democrats. In some ways, no better than the GOP. But if you know how the game is rigged, you know they have no choice.

And who helped the Insurance Industry block real healthcare reform? Republicans did. I bet not one of them voted yes to any healthcare reform, even though reform was long overdue.

But don't blame Obama for writing the healthcare reform so that it also benefits the insurance companies. I thought you wanted them to be profitable? One way to lower the costs per person is to have everyone participate.

And don't forget the GOP were in favor of the individual mandate until Obama agreed to it. Then they flop flopped on the mandate. Hell, Romney invented it.

And we had enough seats in the Senate to get real good healthcare reform, but the lobbyists got to blue dog democrats like Max Baucus.

But what we got was better than the status quo that the GOP were trying to protect. In the long run, its going to keep healthcare costs in check. That is unless we put the GOP back in charge of our government.

Clinton and Obama go along with the GOP because if they don't, they get Carter'ed or worse, Kennedied. I am furious with all the stuff Clinton went along with. Deregulations, corporate tax breaks, looting the ss fund, welfare reform, nafta. But none of these things make me want to vote Republicans because they are the ones that pushed for these things.

If Democrats don't get along with the robber barons, they get ignored. Sort of like how they are ignoring Ron Paul.

Maybe RINO's and neocons....

Most democrats are right of the TEA Party.... Progressives without question presently way out there on the right.

Anyone who looks to the government to legislate and promote partisan agendas is a fucking right wing nut...

It's mind-boggling how progressives refer to themselves as "liberal" - no liberal would demand government address knee-jerk emotions...

"Bullying, childhood obesity, climate change, killing babies, taxes, regulations, redistribution of wealth, hate speech, racism etc.."

A real liberal would never look to government to solve any of those ALLEGED problems, a real liberal knows it's not the federal governments responsibility to handle those alleged issues.

Of course these are the same idiots that want to put limits on civil liberties, such as the First, Second and Tenth Amendments...

What liberal wants to limit the Bill of Rights???

Only right wing fascist progressives do...

Progressives have progressed into a realm of fascism...

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Nope its the people.

we rent them out

The regulatory regime is NOT 'the people'.

The people OWN the airwaves

I think the Chinese and Iranian governments would disagree.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Great point. You can't stop someone from being corrupt. You can only hope they don't for fear of getting caught.

Financing their campaign is how the rich legally get away with greasing their palms. Do away with this and you are right, now its not legal anymore.

Funny the Supreme Courts Citizens United decision goes the exact opposite way. So obvious they are in the corporations pockets. So obvious our system is corrupt. And its not unions or socialists. Its greedy rich corporate robber barons. They've been around for hundreds of years. Our founding fathers warned us but notice the tea baggers don't mention this?

AActually, the tea party has been talking about it since the movement formed back in 07-08. The difference is they realize the "robber barons" are in office and the best way to get them out and keep any others out for good is to limit the size, scope and intrusion of government in the economy and in our liberties.

This is the difference.

We are talking about a corrupted government that has been given the power to interfere with our markets in almost everyway through regulation and subsiy measures and the monopolies that have long since bought our elected officials for these concessions in their favor. That is what corporatism is all about.

The answer, is to get the government OUT OF BUSINESS and put them back in their original and proper role. This restores capitalism, which is the best system we've nearly never had.

We can start by repealing all the nonsense stuffed under interstate commerce. Then, people have to realize the actual problem adn stop asking to fix a symptom. Prolly never happen though, prolly.

Wrong. You tea baggers and Ron Paul fanatics need to realize who is backing the tea party. Billionaires who want to kill our government so it is powerless to stop them. They want to run our government. They already do. And you want to make our government even more powerless to deal with the corporations that now run the show?

Of course they want to shrink the government so that it is powerless to regulate them. We understand that the government needs to shrink. But the GOP aren't going after waste. They are going after programs that help poor and middle class people. But they are leaving in place the real corporate waste/fraud/corruption. The great military industrial complex.

You think this will benefit the middle class?

What do you do? If you are middle class, you are not going to benefit from every man for himself survival of the fittest unregulated free market capitalism.

The New Deal, Unions, Liberals and Progressives are responsible for everything that made living in America great. First unions got a raise and good healthcare, and only then did your non union company match those benefits in order to not loose good talent to the unions. Or so their employees wouldn't unionize. Now that the unions are all but dead, so goes the entire American middle class. Free trade without government regulation sent 7 million good paying manufacturing jobs overseas. Its not about big or small government. That's about a government that works for the top 1% and pisses on the rest of us.

Right to work free market capitalism means the middle class gets poorer and the rich get richer.

The tea party was co-opted by corporate cronies that love their relationship with govt. to keep them in the driver seat. The tea party did not start out as you describe.

This is pure nonsense and apparently, this entire corporatism vs capitalism concept iis WAY over your head. I'm not going to spell out in detail all the fallacy in your understandings.

 

[Contumacious]

Right to work free market capitalism means the middle class gets poorer and the rich get richer.

socialism means that the people are equally miserable and poor --except of course , Communist Party commissars.

You be running for commissar?

.

 

[sealybobo]

hummmmmmmmmmm ---the people------we------

So is we , white man?

.

who do you claim owns the air waves?

The problems that existed prior to 1927 are no longer there . Technology has made the broadband spectrum unlimited.

So so long as you don't interfere with KOST 103.5 FM, start your own station and knock yourself out.

.

We're trying to explain to you that the right wing corporations have purchased all of the major media and they are brainwashed you by controlling the message.

Its like you are saying, "if you don't like Citizens United, donate your life savings to Obama". You think us buying one station is going to counter the brainwashing you are getting from Rush and Fox? And every other media is only as liberal as the corporations/sponsors will allow. They own all the media, so it isn't as liberal as I would like it to be. Not even MSNBC. They allow too many right wingers on to spread their lies. And MSNBC reporters can only go so far. Why Phil Donahue and Keith Olbermann were fired.

Remember that the next time you accuse the media of being liberal. Not since Clinton went along with deregulating it. And the funny thing is, it came back to bite him in the ass. Because once they controlled all the media, all they did was report on Monica Lewinski every day until they got him impeached.

Righties don't realize how important the media is to the rich. But they understand. That's why they bought it all up. That's why they hate the Fairness Doctrine.

If they only reported every day on how Bush lied us into Iraq, maybe he too would have been impeached. Or if the media would report even once how Mitch McConnell has broken the record for filabusters in the Senate. Don't you think America would like to know this?

 

[TakeAStepBack]

They'll never see it until they have it. Then they will look to blame someone else and say "that isn't what we meant at all!"