Cap and Trade Equals Fraud and Tax

[ReillyT]

Yes, I do.

Then you would rather live in the regime that existed during the early 1800s, and we fundamentally disagree on the effects of federal government expansion thus far.

I for one have little problem with the abolition of slavery, desegregation, extension of civil rights to minorities and women, the provision of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. I appreciate that the SEC regulates and requires the public be provided information about securities (even if it doesn't do the best job). I also appreciate the Center for Disease Control, the FDA, the Federal Reserve, wage and hour regulations, the national interstate system, the FDIC, the Clean Air Act, the EPA, the PBGC, the FAA, labour laws, the national park system, Superfund, etc.

The federal government deals with issues that cannot be handled on local basis due to races to the bottom. It solves collective action problems. It is not a boogyman.

The end of slavery and desegregation could have happened without the government, especially considering it was the government that protected these institutions in the first place. There wouldn't have had to have been an extension of civil rights had the government recognized civil rights of all people in the first place. Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid are all set to collapse in the near future, the Federal Reserve gives us the boom-and-bust cycle, wage and hour regulations lead to higher unemployment, and I'm not sure the SEC does a job in the first place.

That is the best that you have got?

"The end of slavery and desegregation could have happened without the government?" Yes, sure they could have in time. The fact that we fought a civil war over the former and the National Guard forced the latter makes me think that it would have been a while though.

Government would have had to extend civil rights if it had recognized them in the first place? Please tell me you see the irony in that statement.

So you think that Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are good things, you just wish they were run more efficiently?

The boom and bust cycle is what we had prior to the Federal Reserve. The US had actual depressions in 1807, 1837, 1873, 1893, and 1929. How many have we had since then?

We have at times maintained sub-5% unemployment (with a greatly expanded workforce from the 1930s) with wage and hour regulations. That would seem to suggest that they are not hampering employment too much.

SEC? Okay... not always great, but prevents the rampant manipulation of the stock market during 1900-1930. Perhaps we need more regulation.

KK... that was really a sad effort. You got nothing against the CDC?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Then you would rather live in the regime that existed during the early 1800s, and we fundamentally disagree on the effects of federal government expansion thus far.

I for one have little problem with the abolition of slavery, desegregation, extension of civil rights to minorities and women, the provision of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. I appreciate that the SEC regulates and requires the public be provided information about securities (even if it doesn't do the best job). I also appreciate the Center for Disease Control, the FDA, the Federal Reserve, wage and hour regulations, the national interstate system, the FDIC, the Clean Air Act, the EPA, the PBGC, the FAA, labour laws, the national park system, Superfund, etc.

The federal government deals with issues that cannot be handled on local basis due to races to the bottom. It solves collective action problems. It is not a boogyman.

The end of slavery and desegregation could have happened without the government, especially considering it was the government that protected these institutions in the first place. There wouldn't have had to have been an extension of civil rights had the government recognized civil rights of all people in the first place. Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid are all set to collapse in the near future, the Federal Reserve gives us the boom-and-bust cycle, wage and hour regulations lead to higher unemployment, and I'm not sure the SEC does a job in the first place.

That is the best that you have got?

"The end of slavery and desegregation could have happened without the government?" Yes, sure they could have in time. The fact that we fought a civil war over the former and the National Guard forced the latter makes me think that it would have been a while though.

Government would have had to extend civil rights if it had recognized them in the first place? Please tell me you see the irony in that statement.

So you think that Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are good things, you just wish they were run more efficiently?

The boom and bust cycle is what we had prior to the Federal Reserve. The US had actual depressions in 1807, 1837, 1873, 1893, and 1929. How many have we had since then?

We have at times maintained sub-5% unemployment (with a greatly expanded workforce from the 1930s) with wage and hour regulations. That would seem to suggest that they are not hampering employment too much.

SEC? Okay... not always great, but prevents the rampant manipulation of the stock market during 1900-1930. Perhaps we need more regulation.

KK... that was really a sad effort. You got nothing against the CDC?

The Civil War was not fought over slavery, and yes it would have died out on its own.

Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid can't be run more efficiently. They're ponzi schemes much worse than the one Bernie Madoff recently got 150 years for pulling off.

Yes, we had the boom-and-bust cycle prior to the Federal Reserve because we had two national banks and the federal government would interfere in the market as well.

If you don't see how minimum wage and hour regulations add to unemployment why not make minimum wage $100/hour and a 20 hour work week?

That would be the government's answer to the SEC. "This doesn't work so lets give them more power!"

Nothing against the CDC? Well, I suppose the vaccines they and the federal government will trot out for the swine flu will likely be worse than the actual flu itself.

 

[ReillyT]

The end of slavery and desegregation could have happened without the government, especially considering it was the government that protected these institutions in the first place. There wouldn't have had to have been an extension of civil rights had the government recognized civil rights of all people in the first place. Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid are all set to collapse in the near future, the Federal Reserve gives us the boom-and-bust cycle, wage and hour regulations lead to higher unemployment, and I'm not sure the SEC does a job in the first place.

That is the best that you have got?

"The end of slavery and desegregation could have happened without the government?" Yes, sure they could have in time. The fact that we fought a civil war over the former and the National Guard forced the latter makes me think that it would have been a while though.

Government would have had to extend civil rights if it had recognized them in the first place? Please tell me you see the irony in that statement.

So you think that Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are good things, you just wish they were run more efficiently?

The boom and bust cycle is what we had prior to the Federal Reserve. The US had actual depressions in 1807, 1837, 1873, 1893, and 1929. How many have we had since then?

We have at times maintained sub-5% unemployment (with a greatly expanded workforce from the 1930s) with wage and hour regulations. That would seem to suggest that they are not hampering employment too much.

SEC? Okay... not always great, but prevents the rampant manipulation of the stock market during 1900-1930. Perhaps we need more regulation.

KK... that was really a sad effort. You got nothing against the CDC?

The Civil War was not fought over slavery, and yes it would have died out on its own.

Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid can't be run more efficiently. They're ponzi schemes much worse than the one Bernie Madoff recently got 150 years for pulling off.

Yes, we had the boom-and-bust cycle prior to the Federal Reserve because we had two national banks and the federal government would interfere in the market as well.

If you don't see how minimum wage and hour regulations add to unemployment why not make minimum wage $100/hour and a 20 hour work week?

That would be the government's answer to the SEC. "This doesn't work so lets give them more power!"

Nothing against the CDC? Well, I suppose the vaccines they and the federal government will trot out for the swine flu will likely be worse than the actual flu itself.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. To recap, with respect to government action:

1. Abolition of Slavery?
KK- bad (black people would have become free eventually); ReillyT - Good

2. Desegregation?
KK - Bad; ReillyT - Good

3. Civil Rights Act of 1964?
KK - Bad (perhaps the country wasn't ready for it yet); ReillyT - Good

4. 19th Amendment granting women the right to vote?
KK- Bad; ReilyT - Good

5. Federal Reserve?
KK- Bad; ReillyT- Good

6. Basic Social Protection Schemes (Social Security, Medicare, etc.)
KK- Bad; ReillyT - Good

7. SEC
KK- Bad (everyone loves unregulated markets); ReillyT - Good

8. CDC
KK- Jury is still out; ReillyT- Good

While I find this funny (and a little sad), this is pretty accurate, isn't it?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

That is the best that you have got?

"The end of slavery and desegregation could have happened without the government?" Yes, sure they could have in time. The fact that we fought a civil war over the former and the National Guard forced the latter makes me think that it would have been a while though.

Government would have had to extend civil rights if it had recognized them in the first place? Please tell me you see the irony in that statement.

So you think that Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are good things, you just wish they were run more efficiently?

The boom and bust cycle is what we had prior to the Federal Reserve. The US had actual depressions in 1807, 1837, 1873, 1893, and 1929. How many have we had since then?

We have at times maintained sub-5% unemployment (with a greatly expanded workforce from the 1930s) with wage and hour regulations. That would seem to suggest that they are not hampering employment too much.

SEC? Okay... not always great, but prevents the rampant manipulation of the stock market during 1900-1930. Perhaps we need more regulation.

KK... that was really a sad effort. You got nothing against the CDC?

The Civil War was not fought over slavery, and yes it would have died out on its own.

Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid can't be run more efficiently. They're ponzi schemes much worse than the one Bernie Madoff recently got 150 years for pulling off.

Yes, we had the boom-and-bust cycle prior to the Federal Reserve because we had two national banks and the federal government would interfere in the market as well.

If you don't see how minimum wage and hour regulations add to unemployment why not make minimum wage $100/hour and a 20 hour work week?

That would be the government's answer to the SEC. "This doesn't work so lets give them more power!"

Nothing against the CDC? Well, I suppose the vaccines they and the federal government will trot out for the swine flu will likely be worse than the actual flu itself.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. To recap, with respect to government action:

1. Abolition of Slavery?
KK- bad (black people would have become free eventually); ReillyT - Good

2. Desegregation?
KK - Bad; ReillyT - Good

3. Civil Rights Act of 1964?
KK - Bad (perhaps the country wasn't ready for it yet); ReillyT - Good

4. 19th Amendment granting women the right to vote?
KK- Bad; ReilyT - Good

5. Federal Reserve?
KK- Bad; ReillyT- Good

6. Basic Social Protection Schemes (Social Security, Medicare, etc.)
KK- Bad; ReillyT - Good

7. SEC
KK- Bad (everyone loves unregulated markets); ReillyT - Good

8. CDC
KK- Jury is still out; ReillyT- Good

While I find this funny (and a little sad), this is pretty accurate, isn't it?

100% accurate. I am clearly a racist, sexist, capitalist pig.

And the CDC should go as well.

 

[ReillyT]

The Civil War was not fought over slavery, and yes it would have died out on its own.

Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid can't be run more efficiently. They're ponzi schemes much worse than the one Bernie Madoff recently got 150 years for pulling off.

Yes, we had the boom-and-bust cycle prior to the Federal Reserve because we had two national banks and the federal government would interfere in the market as well.

If you don't see how minimum wage and hour regulations add to unemployment why not make minimum wage $100/hour and a 20 hour work week?

That would be the government's answer to the SEC. "This doesn't work so lets give them more power!"

Nothing against the CDC? Well, I suppose the vaccines they and the federal government will trot out for the swine flu will likely be worse than the actual flu itself.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. To recap, with respect to government action:

1. Abolition of Slavery?
KK- bad (black people would have become free eventually); ReillyT - Good

2. Desegregation?
KK - Bad; ReillyT - Good

3. Civil Rights Act of 1964?
KK - Bad (perhaps the country wasn't ready for it yet); ReillyT - Good

4. 19th Amendment granting women the right to vote?
KK- Bad; ReilyT - Good

5. Federal Reserve?
KK- Bad; ReillyT- Good

6. Basic Social Protection Schemes (Social Security, Medicare, etc.)
KK- Bad; ReillyT - Good

7. SEC
KK- Bad (everyone loves unregulated markets); ReillyT - Good

8. CDC
KK- Jury is still out; ReillyT- Good

While I find this funny (and a little sad), this is pretty accurate, isn't it?

100% accurate. I am clearly a racist, sexist, capitalist pig.

And the CDC should go as well.

I don't know that you are racist, sexist or even capitalist. A bit stupid and naive perhaps, but that might be the extent of it.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. To recap, with respect to government action:

1. Abolition of Slavery?
KK- bad (black people would have become free eventually); ReillyT - Good

2. Desegregation?
KK - Bad; ReillyT - Good

3. Civil Rights Act of 1964?
KK - Bad (perhaps the country wasn't ready for it yet); ReillyT - Good

4. 19th Amendment granting women the right to vote?
KK- Bad; ReilyT - Good

5. Federal Reserve?
KK- Bad; ReillyT- Good

6. Basic Social Protection Schemes (Social Security, Medicare, etc.)
KK- Bad; ReillyT - Good

7. SEC
KK- Bad (everyone loves unregulated markets); ReillyT - Good

8. CDC
KK- Jury is still out; ReillyT- Good

While I find this funny (and a little sad), this is pretty accurate, isn't it?

100% accurate. I am clearly a racist, sexist, capitalist pig.

And the CDC should go as well.

I don't know that you are racist, sexist or even capitalist. A bit stupid and naive perhaps, but that might be the extent of it.

I'm stupid and naive yet you failed to address any of my points or to even ask me to expound upon them if they weren't clear enough for you, and instead decided to twist my words to make me appear racist and sexist.

 

[ReillyT]

100% accurate. I am clearly a racist, sexist, capitalist pig.

And the CDC should go as well.

I don't know that you are racist, sexist or even capitalist. A bit stupid and naive perhaps, but that might be the extent of it.

I'm stupid and naive yet you failed to address any of my points or to even ask me to expound upon them if they weren't clear enough for you, and instead decided to twist my words to make me appear racist and sexist.

If you think you appear racist and sexist, perhaps you ought to reflect on that. I don't believe that I twisted anything. I merely reiterated back to you exactly what you wrote to me. All seemed perfectly clear.

It might be one thing for me to call you stupid and naive, but you shouldn't call yourself stupid and naive. That would just be sad.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I don't know that you are racist, sexist or even capitalist. A bit stupid and naive perhaps, but that might be the extent of it.

I'm stupid and naive yet you failed to address any of my points or to even ask me to expound upon them if they weren't clear enough for you, and instead decided to twist my words to make me appear racist and sexist.

If you think you appear racist and sexist, perhaps you ought to reflect on that. I don't believe that I twisted anything. I merely reiterated back to you exactly what you wrote to me. All seemed perfectly clear.

It might be one thing for me to call you stupid and naive, but you shouldn't call yourself stupid and naive. That would just be sad.

I didn't appear racist or sexist until you posted your list twisting my words. Although I am a free market capitalist you tried to make that look bad as well, despite the fact that you clearly don't know what a free or unregulated market really is.

 

[Aristophanes]

OK. That is really not the best solution. Agreed. So just start closing down the Coal and Oil fired generators on a ten year schedule. Dirtiest first. Then the natural gas generators on a 20 year schedule. Throw a grid out to where the wind, solar, and other alternatives are, and charge companies for tranmission over that grid to pay for it. That would be my solution.

So your solution is to black the country out, because no wind or solar alternative could economically or physically meet the demand required by this country's daily use of power.

Kinda scary.