Can we ignore the partisan bickering and discuss mass murder?

[Borillar]

Humanity's capacity for evil is just the flip side of its capacity for good. You can't really have the one without the other.

As far as preventing it goes, the place for us to start is with being honest about the topic. We get nowhere by pretending it's all about the tools used, or that evil doesn't exist, or that evil is a mental disorder, or that we can eliminate the bad in human nature by passing enough laws, imposing ridiculous politically-correct behavior rules, and wishing really hard.

Indeed. In the face of such events, how can anyone deny that evil exists? But what can be done about it? Can we make it harder for evil people to obtain the tools for their murderous intent? Do we have to become like the "wild west" of a century and a half ago with everybody carrying guns?

No, Einstein, you cannot "make it harder for evil people to obtain tools for their murderous intent". You are never going to turn the entire world into a giant Romper Room set with nothing but safety scissors and fat crayons in it. Say it with me now: THE TOOLS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. If I decided to kill you, I could do it with a crochet hook. Are you going to outlaw crochet hooks (the security guards at the courthouse in my town actually do not allow you to bring crochet hooks or knitting needles into the building now)? I could bludgeon you to death with a heavy object. Are you going to outlaw all objects that weigh over a certain amount? Arson's pretty popular with mass murderers. Are you going to outlaw anything flammable? All poisonous substances?

Use your frigging head for something other than keeping your ears apart.

Yeah Freud, but can you go to a crowded theater and kill 12 people and injure 70 with a crochet hook before someone overpowers you or everyone runs away? Not bloody likely. You might get 1 or 2 at best. You can't stop evil altogether, you can only hope to contain it or slow it down.

So, your solution is machine guns for toddlers then?

 

[The Infidel]

It happens all over the world, in the UK (very strict gun control laws), the whole of Europe and the rest. It's not guns, it's people that are the problem.

If people are the problem, then surely taking guns out of the hands of the people will prevent the problem that is created by a maniac with a gun?

There is no sense in allowing fucked up people to get their hands on a dangerous weapon...

So you going to ban trucks when someone decides to mow people down with it?

Outlaw guns, and only outlaws will have them.

Fuck that....!

 

[Cecilie1200]

Indeed. In the face of such events, how can anyone deny that evil exists? But what can be done about it? Can we make it harder for evil people to obtain the tools for their murderous intent? Do we have to become like the "wild west" of a century and a half ago with everybody carrying guns?

No, Einstein, you cannot "make it harder for evil people to obtain tools for their murderous intent". You are never going to turn the entire world into a giant Romper Room set with nothing but safety scissors and fat crayons in it. Say it with me now: THE TOOLS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. If I decided to kill you, I could do it with a crochet hook. Are you going to outlaw crochet hooks (the security guards at the courthouse in my town actually do not allow you to bring crochet hooks or knitting needles into the building now)? I could bludgeon you to death with a heavy object. Are you going to outlaw all objects that weigh over a certain amount? Arson's pretty popular with mass murderers. Are you going to outlaw anything flammable? All poisonous substances?

Use your frigging head for something other than keeping your ears apart.

Yeah Freud, but can you go to a crowded theater and kill 12 people and injure 70 with a crochet hook before someone overpowers you or everyone runs away? Not bloody likely. You might get 1 or 2 at best. You can't stop evil altogether, you can only hope to contain it or slow it down.

So, your solution is machine guns for toddlers then?

No, if I feel like killing 12 or more people in a movie theater, I can build a bomb in my kitchen and set it off (they're not difficult). Or I can chain the emergency exits shut from outside and set the building on fire. Or I can sneak into the concession stand and poison the popcorn and the sodas. Are you getting the fucking picture? The tool is not the problem; the desire to kill is. And guns aren't mind control devices. They don't make people want to kill.

 

[Borillar]

It happens all over the world, in the UK (very strict gun control laws), the whole of Europe and the rest. It's not guns, it's people that are the problem.

If people are the problem, then surely taking guns out of the hands of the people will prevent the problem that is created by a maniac with a gun?

There is no sense in allowing fucked up people to get their hands on a dangerous weapon...

So you going to ban trucks when someone decides to mow people down with it?

Outlaw guns, and only outlaws will have them.

Fuck that....!

So, the conservative answer to mass murder is to provide everyone with easier access to the tools of murder? Can't stop gun killings, so return to the wild west? Can't stop vehicular homicide so take away all traffic laws? Gun free theaters aren't desirable any more, so we should give all the patrons uzis and hand grenades? Customers should be free to bring their molotov cocktails into the local supermarkets? After all, the tools aren't the problem.

 

[Charles_Main]

The gun is a tool, it is not the motive.

As long as we don't address what causes people to kill on a large scale, they will continue.

Is it culture? Is it movies and TV? Is it bad parenting? Is it a series of emotional and environmental triggers?

Discuss.

The Price of Freedom. It's a Combination of Factors that we can not do much about with out Sacrificing Freedoms.

The UK has less gun Violence, but have you been to London lately? starting to seem a lot like a Police State.

Banning Guns out right is not the answer for sure, and no that does not mean I am opposed to any gun controls at all, despite the Claims of certain lefties in here.

lol

 

[Charles_Main]

If people are the problem, then surely taking guns out of the hands of the people will prevent the problem that is created by a maniac with a gun?

There is no sense in allowing fucked up people to get their hands on a dangerous weapon...

So you going to ban trucks when someone decides to mow people down with it?

Outlaw guns, and only outlaws will have them.

Fuck that....!

So, the conservative answer to mass murder is to provide everyone with easier access to the tools of murder? Can't stop gun killings, so return to the wild west? Can't stop vehicular homicide so take away all traffic laws? Gun free theaters aren't desirable any more, so we should give all the patrons uzis and hand grenades? Customers should be free to bring their molotov cocktails into the local supermarkets? After all, the tools aren't the problem.

Who said anything about Providing easier Access to guns? We have many Gun Control Laws, and Rules.

What you want to do is Punish All of us, for Actions of an Extremely Small Minority of people.

I personally do not want to live in a world where the only people who have guns are the Government, and the Criminals, and Clearly neither did our Founders.

Your side will never stop. If you get all Rifles Banned and we can only have shot guns and Hand Guns, as soon as some loon kills people with one of those, you will be back asking to ban them, and you damn well know it.

 

[Cecilie1200]

If people are the problem, then surely taking guns out of the hands of the people will prevent the problem that is created by a maniac with a gun?

There is no sense in allowing fucked up people to get their hands on a dangerous weapon...

So you going to ban trucks when someone decides to mow people down with it?

Outlaw guns, and only outlaws will have them.

Fuck that....!

So, the conservative answer to mass murder is to provide everyone with easier access to the tools of murder? Can't stop gun killings, so return to the wild west? Can't stop vehicular homicide so take away all traffic laws? Gun free theaters aren't desirable any more, so we should give all the patrons uzis and hand grenades? Customers should be free to bring their molotov cocktails into the local supermarkets? After all, the tools aren't the problem.

Yes, actually, ONE conservative answer to murder is to give people the tools to protect themselves, instead of leaving them with no option other than huddling behind furniture, waiting for their killer - who didn't give two shits for your gun control laws - to find them and put a bullet in their heads, because YOU were so ignorant and puerile as to think that guns cause evil.

By the way, History Boy, the "Wild West" wasn't what you see in movies. You should get over thinking that Hollywood is presenting reality to you. Truth is, Western frontier towns were safer for their populace, in terms of violent crime statistics, than Eastern cities like New York. What violence occurred in frontier towns was mostly between admitted criminals or in short-lived mining camps, which either became real towns and calmed down, or disappeared.

As to "can't stop crime, so take away all laws", there already ARE laws against gun violence. And as with laws about vehicular homicide, which are obeyed by most car owners, the vast majority of gun owners abide by them. At this point, what you're talking about is the equivalent of "we have vehicular laws, and some people still break them, so take away all cars".

 

[Cecilie1200]

Why don't liberals understand that criminals, by definition, don't care about what the law is? To say, "Gun free zones aren't desirable any more" is to mistakenly assume you could ever ACHIEVE a gun-free zone, should someone decide to bring one in anyway. That theater was a gun-free zone. How well did THAT work out?

 

[Moonglow]

The social history of the US is that we are, and were, turned into a violent society and we like it.

Ahh! Pessimism! A man after my own heart.

We also are the world leader in mass murderers.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The gun is a tool, it is not the motive.

As long as we don't address what causes people to kill on a large scale, they will continue.

Is it culture? Is it movies and TV? Is it bad parenting? Is it a series of emotional and environmental triggers?

Discuss.

The Price of Freedom. It's a Combination of Factors that we can not do much about with out Sacrificing Freedoms.

The UK has less gun Violence, but have you been to London lately? starting to seem a lot like a Police State.

Banning Guns out right is not the answer for sure, and no that does not mean I am opposed to any gun controls at all, despite the Claims of certain lefties in here.

lol

I don't know that the UK has less gun violence, and I know for a fact that they have a higher rate of violent crime in general than we do.

In fact, after they passed their restrictive gun laws, THEIR crime rates started climbing, while ours fell during the same period of time, despite the fact that some states loosened their gun restrictions.

 

[MuadDib]

Indeed. In the face of such events, how can anyone deny that evil exists? But what can be done about it? Can we make it harder for evil people to obtain the tools for their murderous intent? Do we have to become like the "wild west" of a century and a half ago with everybody carrying guns?

No, Einstein, you cannot "make it harder for evil people to obtain tools for their murderous intent". You are never going to turn the entire world into a giant Romper Room set with nothing but safety scissors and fat crayons in it. Say it with me now: THE TOOLS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. If I decided to kill you, I could do it with a crochet hook. Are you going to outlaw crochet hooks (the security guards at the courthouse in my town actually do not allow you to bring crochet hooks or knitting needles into the building now)? I could bludgeon you to death with a heavy object. Are you going to outlaw all objects that weigh over a certain amount? Arson's pretty popular with mass murderers. Are you going to outlaw anything flammable? All poisonous substances?

Use your frigging head for something other than keeping your ears apart.

Yeah Freud, but can you go to a crowded theater and kill 12 people and injure 70 with a crochet hook before someone overpowers you or everyone runs away? Not bloody likely. You might get 1 or 2 at best. You can't stop evil altogether, you can only hope to contain it or slow it down.

So, your solution is machine guns for toddlers then?

As I've pointed out elsewhere, a few Molotov Cocktails would have been cheaper and easier to obtain than the guns and ammo, produced fewer records for tracing, and the results would have been a whole lot worse.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The social history of the US is that we are, and were, turned into a violent society and we like it.

Ahh! Pessimism! A man after my own heart.

We also are the world leader in mass murderers.

Not really. Ours just get better press.

 

[Moonglow]

Russia is a close second, but arming yourself is the only answer to protect yourself from killers.

 

[Borillar]

So you going to ban trucks when someone decides to mow people down with it?

Outlaw guns, and only outlaws will have them.

Fuck that....!

So, the conservative answer to mass murder is to provide everyone with easier access to the tools of murder? Can't stop gun killings, so return to the wild west? Can't stop vehicular homicide so take away all traffic laws? Gun free theaters aren't desirable any more, so we should give all the patrons uzis and hand grenades? Customers should be free to bring their molotov cocktails into the local supermarkets? After all, the tools aren't the problem.

Yes, actually, ONE conservative answer to murder is to give people the tools to protect themselves, instead of leaving them with no option other than huddling behind furniture, waiting for their killer - who didn't give two shits for your gun control laws - to find them and put a bullet in their heads, because YOU were so ignorant and puerile as to think that guns cause evil.

By the way, History Boy, the "Wild West" wasn't what you see in movies. You should get over thinking that Hollywood is presenting reality to you. Truth is, Western frontier towns were safer for their populace, in terms of violent crime statistics, than Eastern cities like New York. What violence occurred in frontier towns was mostly between admitted criminals or in short-lived mining camps, which either became real towns and calmed down, or disappeared.

As to "can't stop crime, so take away all laws", there already ARE laws against gun violence. And as with laws about vehicular homicide, which are obeyed by most car owners, the vast majority of gun owners abide by them. At this point, what you're talking about is the equivalent of "we have vehicular laws, and some people still break them, so take away all cars".

Yeah, I know that Hollywood westerns don't portray life as it actually was. I also know that I was employing a lot of hyperbole. But I am reading post after post about how nothing will work. So, what is the solution then? Is it just tough shit for the victims? Can we not reasonably expect to be safe in public settings? We should all be packing heat? We should just accept that there are predators and murderers among us and to always be wary and paranoid?

 

[Old Rocks]

The gun is a tool, it is not the motive.

As long as we don't address what causes people to kill on a large scale, they will continue.

Is it culture? Is it movies and TV? Is it bad parenting? Is it a series of emotional and environmental triggers?

Discuss.

OK. That is a good start. First, every tool I use at work has safety features. To me, one safety feature on guns citizens buy, would be a limit to five shot magazines. Hardly a detriment in self defense, and creates the neccessity of reloading, which would give people a chance to escape, or take down the shooter.

One might look at other nations where gun ownership is common, yet have far less gun violence. Canada, Switzerland, Sweden. Universal Health Care, with access to psychiatric help would help in some cases. Recognition of the type of psychological profile that is prone to this type of horror would help.

Other nations, such as Japan, have very violent movies, yet far less violence than we do.

At present, we still know far too little about emotional triggers for some types of people. Some real studies are needed here.

And, FYI, I am a gun owner, and have been for almost 60 years.

 

[MuadDib]

The gun is a tool, it is not the motive.

As long as we don't address what causes people to kill on a large scale, they will continue.

Is it culture? Is it movies and TV? Is it bad parenting? Is it a series of emotional and environmental triggers?

Discuss.

OK. That is a good start. First, every tool I use at work has safety features. To me, one safety feature on guns citizens buy, would be a limit to five shot magazines. Hardly a detriment in self defense, and creates the neccessity of reloading, which would give people a chance to escape, or take down the shooter.

One might look at other nations where gun ownership is common, yet have far less gun violence. Canada, Switzerland, Sweden. Universal Health Care, with access to psychiatric help would help in some cases. Recognition of the type of psychological profile that is prone to this type of horror would help.

Other nations, such as Japan, have very violent movies, yet far less violence than we do.

At present, we still know far too little about emotional triggers for some types of people. Some real studies are needed here.

And, FYI, I am a gun owner, and have been for almost 60 years.

What if it takes 6 or 7 shots to stop the threat?

You may see a one-shot-stop in the movies, but it rarely works that way in real life unless you make a head shot and those are hard to do in fast moving situations. That's why they teach you to shoot center mass and keep shooting until the threat is elminated.

 

[blastoff]

It's human nature and borders and nationalities have have nothing to do with it. Mankind will always produce a certain amount of kooks of various stripes.

Look at John Wayne Gacy for example. Though he never shot anyone he nonetheless murdered dozens except, I believe, only one at a time. No gun, no knife, just a nice piece of rope to strangle them with. Would tougher rope laws have stopped him?

About all individuals can do is stay observant and keep an eye out for people who act, maybe look, etc., suspicious in some way, but even that won't solve the problem. Admittedly I haven't read much about this CO shooter so I could be wrong, but I haven't heard yet anything in his past that would alert anyone he'd ever do such a thing. What I have is a picture of an intelligent, nerdy guy pursuing an advanced college degree. And that's a profile that says to me that's the last type of person to ever go on a killing spree.

 

[Cecilie1200]

So, the conservative answer to mass murder is to provide everyone with easier access to the tools of murder? Can't stop gun killings, so return to the wild west? Can't stop vehicular homicide so take away all traffic laws? Gun free theaters aren't desirable any more, so we should give all the patrons uzis and hand grenades? Customers should be free to bring their molotov cocktails into the local supermarkets? After all, the tools aren't the problem.

Yes, actually, ONE conservative answer to murder is to give people the tools to protect themselves, instead of leaving them with no option other than huddling behind furniture, waiting for their killer - who didn't give two shits for your gun control laws - to find them and put a bullet in their heads, because YOU were so ignorant and puerile as to think that guns cause evil.

By the way, History Boy, the "Wild West" wasn't what you see in movies. You should get over thinking that Hollywood is presenting reality to you. Truth is, Western frontier towns were safer for their populace, in terms of violent crime statistics, than Eastern cities like New York. What violence occurred in frontier towns was mostly between admitted criminals or in short-lived mining camps, which either became real towns and calmed down, or disappeared.

As to "can't stop crime, so take away all laws", there already ARE laws against gun violence. And as with laws about vehicular homicide, which are obeyed by most car owners, the vast majority of gun owners abide by them. At this point, what you're talking about is the equivalent of "we have vehicular laws, and some people still break them, so take away all cars".

Yeah, I know that Hollywood westerns don't portray life as it actually was. I also know that I was employing a lot of hyperbole. But I am reading post after post about how nothing will work. So, what is the solution then? Is it just tough shit for the victims? Can we not reasonably expect to be safe in public settings? We should all be packing heat? We should just accept that there are predators and murderers among us and to always be wary and paranoid?

No one said, "Nothing will work." We're saying YOUR stupid approach of blaming the tools and trying to turn the world into a Romper Room set, where all the edges are padded and there's nothing more dangerous than safety scissors, won't work. And it won't.

If you utopian fainting flowers on the left would stop screaming, "Ban all guns, and then we'll be safe!" for five minutes, we might have a chance to discover the REAL causes of the problem and look for solutions to them.

But I will tell you right now that, to a certain extent, it IS going to be "just tough shit" for some people once in a while, because you are NEVER, EVER going to remove all violence from humanity or make the world entirely safe. And trying to make laws to counteract nature is like trying to bail out the Pacific Ocean with a teaspoon.

 

[Borillar]

Yes, actually, ONE conservative answer to murder is to give people the tools to protect themselves, instead of leaving them with no option other than huddling behind furniture, waiting for their killer - who didn't give two shits for your gun control laws - to find them and put a bullet in their heads, because YOU were so ignorant and puerile as to think that guns cause evil.

By the way, History Boy, the "Wild West" wasn't what you see in movies. You should get over thinking that Hollywood is presenting reality to you. Truth is, Western frontier towns were safer for their populace, in terms of violent crime statistics, than Eastern cities like New York. What violence occurred in frontier towns was mostly between admitted criminals or in short-lived mining camps, which either became real towns and calmed down, or disappeared.

As to "can't stop crime, so take away all laws", there already ARE laws against gun violence. And as with laws about vehicular homicide, which are obeyed by most car owners, the vast majority of gun owners abide by them. At this point, what you're talking about is the equivalent of "we have vehicular laws, and some people still break them, so take away all cars".

Yeah, I know that Hollywood westerns don't portray life as it actually was. I also know that I was employing a lot of hyperbole. But I am reading post after post about how nothing will work. So, what is the solution then? Is it just tough shit for the victims? Can we not reasonably expect to be safe in public settings? We should all be packing heat? We should just accept that there are predators and murderers among us and to always be wary and paranoid?

No one said, "Nothing will work." We're saying YOUR stupid approach of blaming the tools and trying to turn the world into a Romper Room set, where all the edges are padded and there's nothing more dangerous than safety scissors, won't work. And it won't.

If you utopian fainting flowers on the left would stop screaming, "Ban all guns, and then we'll be safe!" for five minutes, we might have a chance to discover the REAL causes of the problem and look for solutions to them.

But I will tell you right now that, to a certain extent, it IS going to be "just tough shit" for some people once in a while, because you are NEVER, EVER going to remove all violence from humanity or make the world entirely safe. And trying to make laws to counteract nature is like trying to bail out the Pacific Ocean with a teaspoon.

I haven't called for banning guns. I do think there should be reasonable restrictions. Now you are the one employing lots of hyperbole. We aren't trying to turn the world into "Romper Room." Nobody is screaming except for you gun nutters on the right "don't take my guns!" "...cold, dead hands!" "guns don't kill people!" For all your screaming, I haven't heard any solutions, nor have I heard anybody on the right proposing any solutions. Just a lot of hunker down, buy more ammo, 2nd amendment rhetoric. So what is the right wing solution? Kill everyone and let God sort it out?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Yeah, I know that Hollywood westerns don't portray life as it actually was. I also know that I was employing a lot of hyperbole. But I am reading post after post about how nothing will work. So, what is the solution then? Is it just tough shit for the victims? Can we not reasonably expect to be safe in public settings? We should all be packing heat? We should just accept that there are predators and murderers among us and to always be wary and paranoid?

No one said, "Nothing will work." We're saying YOUR stupid approach of blaming the tools and trying to turn the world into a Romper Room set, where all the edges are padded and there's nothing more dangerous than safety scissors, won't work. And it won't.

If you utopian fainting flowers on the left would stop screaming, "Ban all guns, and then we'll be safe!" for five minutes, we might have a chance to discover the REAL causes of the problem and look for solutions to them.

But I will tell you right now that, to a certain extent, it IS going to be "just tough shit" for some people once in a while, because you are NEVER, EVER going to remove all violence from humanity or make the world entirely safe. And trying to make laws to counteract nature is like trying to bail out the Pacific Ocean with a teaspoon.

I haven't called for banning guns. I do think there should be reasonable restrictions. Now you are the one employing lots of hyperbole. We aren't trying to turn the world into "Romper Room." Nobody is screaming except for you gun nutters on the right "don't take my guns!" "...cold, dead hands!" "guns don't kill people!" For all your screaming, I haven't heard any solutions, nor have I heard anybody on the right proposing any solutions. Just a lot of hunker down, buy more ammo, 2nd amendment rhetoric. So what is the right wing solution? Kill everyone and let God sort it out?

Oh, spare me. "I'm just talking about how dangerous guns are and how undesirable it is for everyone to be armed. How could you think that means I want to ban guns?" Try it on someone gullible.

"Reasonable restrictions" such as what? How are you defining "reasonable"?

I don't engage in hyperbole, thanks. I'm just not referring only to you, although I am certainly including you in with the rest of the "the guns are the problem!" crowd, and rightly so. Contemplate that not everything is just about you.

You certainly ARE aiming for a Romper Room world, whether you realize it or not. One need only look at your hysteria-laden posts.

So, the conservative answer to mass murder is to provide everyone with easier access to the tools of murder? Can't stop gun killings, so return to the wild west? Can't stop vehicular homicide so take away all traffic laws? Gun free theaters aren't desirable any more, so we should give all the patrons uzis and hand grenades? Customers should be free to bring their molotov cocktails into the local supermarkets?

Indeed. In the face of such events, how can anyone deny that evil exists? But what can be done about it? Can we make it harder for evil people to obtain the tools for their murderous intent? Do we have to become like the "wild west" of a century and a half ago with everybody carrying guns?

Yeah Freud, but can you go to a crowded theater and kill 12 people and injure 70 with a crochet hook before someone overpowers you or everyone runs away? Not bloody likely. You might get 1 or 2 at best. You can't stop evil altogether, you can only hope to contain it or slow it down.

So, your solution is machine guns for toddlers then?

You make it pretty clear that 1) you consider the problem to be the guns, and 2) you consider the only possible solution to be trying to "child-proof" the world. Why else would you include the far-extreme hyperbole of "machine guns for toddlers"?

Oh, and "Kill everyone and let God sort them out"? Really, Junior?

As I've said, you leftist 'tards keep us so damned busy answering your attempts to make us all more vulnerable that it's pretty hard to work on finding sensible causes and solutions, and when we DO produce them, we can't get heard because the left is so busy shouting us down with, "Guns are EEEVilll!" rhetoric.