Bill to limit executive privlige introduced

[bigrebnc1775]

Doubtful. Are you going to try and tell me their are National Security Secrets in the Documents Obama just Used EP for?

Also Doubtful

The identities of undercover agents should be protected. After the Valerie Plaine outing, Im just not going to trust people with political agendas to do the right thing. Fast and Furious was a huge giant totally avoidable mistake which should have consequences, but Im with Obama on keep names out of the hands of the likes of Issa.

Executive Privilege has nothing to do with the State's Secret Privilege.

How about National security?

 

[Ernie S.]

This is pure political posturing. There is no way there are enough votes to overcome a Presidential veto.

If Nadler is a co-sponsor on this, I would bet there is bipartisan support. Perhaps enough to over-ride.
For him to even have to veto this is very damaging. A veto would just about confirm that his invoking EP is a cover-up attempt.
The only way obama has any chance of surviving this is to fire holder tomorrow.

 

[Ernie S.]

so a president would have to turn over anything that was requested?

even national secrets?

I guess you didn't read the link.

She can read? I've seen no evidence.

 

[Inthemiddle]

A veto would just about confirm that his invoking EP is a cover-up attempt.

The bill has nothing to do with Executive Privilege.

 

[Vidi]

Bush used it 6 times to cover up "real" crimes. Obama uses it once to fight against a witchhunt from, get this, a "Bush" program. Republicans will never pass it in case they get the White House.

It was NOT a Bush program. It was a tactic used during the Bush era twice, it failed miserably ( they lost 200 guns ) then it was CANCELED on OCt 6, 2007.

THEN, Fast and Furious was created on Oct 26, 2009. TWO full years later.

I guarantee I hated Bush more than you and would LOVE to be able to blame this on him, but the facts are the facts.

Yes we can see that you are trying tactic used by bush. nice word play,
The only comparisons between the two they involved guns. and drug dealers.

Actually no word play at all. I chose my words very carefully. I didnt even blame Bush or say he specifically used the tactic. I said Bush era, which only means it happened while he was president, not that he intiated or even knew about it. In fact if you go back through ALL of my posts on this subject, youll find I never once said Bush used this tactic, only that it was used during his presidency or under him.

Theres also some debate as to if Obama even knew this was going on. I find the point moot. He's the president, as Bush was, and it happened under his watch, as it did under Bush's watch. In that sense, they are responsible even if they had no knowledge of the operation itself.

But youre incorrect. All three operations, the two during the Bush years and Fast and Furious were all "gunwalking" operations, in which illegal strawmen purchases were allowed in the US in order to follow the guns to the cartels. The operations were VERY similar in almost every respect. The key difference being the involvement or lack of involvement of the Mexican government.

You and I can agree all night long about the why's of these operations, but I think we should at least agree on the who, whats, whens and hows.

 

[DiamondDave]

Bush used it 6 times to cover up "real" crimes. Obama uses it once to fight against a witchhunt from, get this, a "Bush" program. Republicans will never pass it in case they get the White House.

It was NOT a Bush program. It was a tactic used during the Bush era twice, it failed miserably ( they lost 200 guns ) then it was CANCELED on OCt 6, 2007.

THEN, Fast and Furious was created on Oct 26, 2009. TWO full years later.

I guarantee I hated Bush more than you and would LOVE to be able to blame this on him, but the facts are the facts.

that asshole deaner won't ever stop asserting his lies as truths in the hopes of pulling the wool over some noob's eyes...

"Bush used it to cover up real crimes"

deaner, you need to join the same club as tdm.. the very small club where all members would do society a favor by offing themselves

 

[bigrebnc1775]

It was NOT a Bush program. It was a tactic used during the Bush era twice, it failed miserably ( they lost 200 guns ) then it was CANCELED on OCt 6, 2007.

THEN, Fast and Furious was created on Oct 26, 2009. TWO full years later.

I guarantee I hated Bush more than you and would LOVE to be able to blame this on him, but the facts are the facts.

Yes we can see that you are trying tactic used by bush. nice word play,
The only comparisons between the two they involved guns. and drug dealers.

Actually no word play at all. I chose my words very carefully. I didnt even blame Bush or say he specifically used the tactic. I said Bush era, which only means it happened while he was president, not that he intiated or even knew about it. In fact if you go back through ALL of my posts on this subject, youll find I never once said Bush used this tactic, only that it was used during his presidency or under him.

Theres also some debate as to if Obama even knew this was going on. I find the point moot. He's the president, as Bush was, and it happened under his watch, as it did under Bush's watch. In that sense, they are responsible even if they had no knowledge of the operation itself.

But youre incorrect. All three operations, the two during the Bush years and Fast and Furious were all "gunwalking" operations, in which illegal strawmen purchases were allowed in the US in order to follow the guns to the cartels. The operations were VERY similar in almost every respect. The key difference being the involvement or lack of involvement of the Mexican government.

You and I can agree all night long about the why's of these operations, but I think we should at least agree on the who, whats, whens and hows.

You really didn't use your words carefully how do you know the tactics of the operation didn't change? No two law enforcement stings are the same.

 

[Vidi]

This is pure political posturing. There is no way there are enough votes to overcome a Presidential veto.

It depends. Both parties might look at it with a long game strategy. Theres no way either party will hold the Presidency forever and being able to trump exceutive priviledge when they are out of the executive might be more favorable than being able to invoke it when they do hold the office.

 

[Zoom]

how do you know there is not?

BTW there is gran jury testimony that would be illegal for them to release to congress

I am really surprised the right didnt try to present his stoppage when bush did it. No wait. Nevermind...I forgot thy would never say what bush did was wrong...even when oboma does the same thing. Fucking hypocrites.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

The identities of undercover agents should be protected. After the Valerie Plaine outing, Im just not going to trust people with political agendas to do the right thing. Fast and Furious was a huge giant totally avoidable mistake which should have consequences, but Im with Obama on keep names out of the hands of the likes of Issa.

Executive Privilege has nothing to do with the State's Secret Privilege.

How about National security?

Inthemiddle care to answer this?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Nothing here about Fast and Furious:

Quantum Windbag is full of hot air, again.

So much for the claim that only right wingers think Obama is wrong to use executive privilege to cover up Fast and Furious.

Much-Abused 'State Secrets Privilege' Under Fire in Congress | Threat Level | Wired.com

Much-Abused ‘State Secrets Privilege’ Under Fire in Congress
Much-Abused 'State Secrets Privilege' Under Fire in Congress | Threat Level | Wired.com

“The ongoing argument that the state secrets privilege requires the outright dismissal of a case is a disconcerting trend in the protection of civil liberties for our nation,” Nadler said of the bill, unveiled last week.

---

Bill Would Limit Judges on State Secrets
Bill Would Limit Judges on State Secrets | Threat Level | Wired.com

Lawmakers on Wednesday introduced legislation that might make it more difficult for federal judges to scuttle lawsuits in which the government claims state secrets might be exposed.

yep. looked again. nothing here

 

[Vidi]

Yes we can see that you are trying tactic used by bush. nice word play,
The only comparisons between the two they involved guns. and drug dealers.

Actually no word play at all. I chose my words very carefully. I didnt even blame Bush or say he specifically used the tactic. I said Bush era, which only means it happened while he was president, not that he intiated or even knew about it. In fact if you go back through ALL of my posts on this subject, youll find I never once said Bush used this tactic, only that it was used during his presidency or under him.

Theres also some debate as to if Obama even knew this was going on. I find the point moot. He's the president, as Bush was, and it happened under his watch, as it did under Bush's watch. In that sense, they are responsible even if they had no knowledge of the operation itself.

But youre incorrect. All three operations, the two during the Bush years and Fast and Furious were all "gunwalking" operations, in which illegal strawmen purchases were allowed in the US in order to follow the guns to the cartels. The operations were VERY similar in almost every respect. The key difference being the involvement or lack of involvement of the Mexican government.

You and I can agree all night long about the why's of these operations, but I think we should at least agree on the who, whats, whens and hows.

You really didn't use your words carefully how do you know the tactics of the operation didn't change? No two law enforcement stings are the same.

I know because Ive read all the links.

The first "gunwalking" operation was Operation:Wide reciever. It began in early 2006. Another probe, Project Gunrunner, to the best of my knowledge, began in 2005 ran for several years before being shut down on Oct 6, 2007. Several guns were lost in both operations. In the second the mexican government had no involvement BUt were informed once the guns crossed the border, but they lost the suspects.

Then on Oct 26, 2009 Fast and Furious began using the same gunwalking tactic that had already been tried, failed and then rejected.

But weve been over this already. Those are the FACTS. Only the blind partisans are denying them. Those on the left who falsely claim that the operation was inherited from the bush administration and those that falsely claim that its a pure invention of the Obama administration.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Actually no word play at all. I chose my words very carefully. I didnt even blame Bush or say he specifically used the tactic. I said Bush era, which only means it happened while he was president, not that he intiated or even knew about it. In fact if you go back through ALL of my posts on this subject, youll find I never once said Bush used this tactic, only that it was used during his presidency or under him.

Theres also some debate as to if Obama even knew this was going on. I find the point moot. He's the president, as Bush was, and it happened under his watch, as it did under Bush's watch. In that sense, they are responsible even if they had no knowledge of the operation itself.

But youre incorrect. All three operations, the two during the Bush years and Fast and Furious were all "gunwalking" operations, in which illegal strawmen purchases were allowed in the US in order to follow the guns to the cartels. The operations were VERY similar in almost every respect. The key difference being the involvement or lack of involvement of the Mexican government.

You and I can agree all night long about the why's of these operations, but I think we should at least agree on the who, whats, whens and hows.

You really didn't use your words carefully how do you know the tactics of the operation didn't change? No two law enforcement stings are the same.

I know because Ive read all the links.

The first "gunwalking" operation was Operation:Wide reciever. It began in early 2006. Another probe, Project Gunrunner, to the best of my knowledge, began in 2007 ran for several months before being shut down on Oct 6, 2007. Several guns were lost in both operations. In the second the mexican government had no involvement BUt were informed once the guns crossed the border, but they lost the suspects.

Then on Oct 26, 2009 Fast and Furious began using the same gunwalking tactic that had already been tried, failed and then rejected.

But weve been over this already. Those are the FACTS. Only the blind partisans are denying them. Those on the left who falsely claim that the operation was inherited from the bush administration and those that falsely claim that its a pure invention of the Obama administration.

Just because they dealt with guns doesn't mean they used the same tactics.

 

[Charles_Main]

This was not a Bush Program, nor an Obama program. You guys sound silly arguing that Back and Forth.

Both F and F and wide Receiver were plans Hatched at the Local level. Any Admin Involvement in Both Cases was after the Program was already in effect.

However that Changes absolutely nothing about the Investigation of F and F, and the Potential Contempt Vote that may Result from it.

The First was simply to get to the Bottom of how it happened, because Holder first mislead, then admitted to misleading Congress, and still refuses to Release everything asked for.

why Obama used EP is beyond me. It only serves to make him look Guilty of Something. At the Very least trying to protect Holder, from something he thinks could warrant Criminal Charges.

what I am sure I don't know is how the left is spinning this. There is no Rational Reason to think EP applies to all these Documents. The Vast Majority of them are not even between the WH and someone, they are internal DOJ documents that do not even involve the Office of the President.

so no matter how you try and spin it, if your Honest, Obama looks dirty on this one. Either for Covering for Holder, or worse he himself knew more than he has said. I see no other reason for the Use of EP.

Though I am sure Partisan Obama supporters have managed to Rationalize it in their Heads somehow.

You know, Those Republicans are so mean we have to let Obama shit all over the Constitution, and the Separation of Powers, in Order to Protect his dishonest AG, so Obama don't look bad.

lol

 

[Inthemiddle]

Both F and F and wide Receiver were plans Hatched at the Local level. Any Admin Involvement in Both Cases was after the Program was already in effect.

And what does that have to do with the proposed bill here?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

This was not a Bush Program, nor an Obama program. You guys sound silly arguing that Back and Forth.

Both F and F and wide Receiver were plans Hatched at the Local level. Any Admin Involvement in Both Cases was after the Program was already in effect.

However that Changes absolutely nothing about the Investigation of F and F, and the Potential Contempt Vote that may Result from it.

The First was simply to get to the Bottom of how it happened, because Holder first mislead, then admitted to misleading Congress, and still refuses to Release everything asked for.

why Obama used EP is beyond me. It only serves to make him look Guilty of Something. At the Very least trying to protect Holder, from something he thinks could warrant Criminal Charges.

what I am sure I don't know is how the left is spinning this. There is no Rational Reason to think EP applies to all these Documents. The Vast Majority of them are not even between the WH and someone, they are internal DOJ documents that do not even involve the Office of the President.

so no matter how you try and spin it, if your Honest, Obama looks dirty on this one. Either for Covering for Holder, or worse he himself knew more than he has said. I see no other reason for the Use of EP.

Though I am sure Partisan Obama supporters have managed to Rationalize it in their Heads somehow.

You know, Those Republicans are so mean we have to let Obama shit all over the Constitution, and the Separation of Powers, in Order to Protect his dishonest AG, so Obama don't look bad.

lol

There is one thing about the last 3 and a half year that has shown to be true. Someone needs to revoke obama's instructor certificate and fire his constitutional instructors for misleading obama into thinking obama knew the Constitution.

 

[occupied]

A half-measure at best going after judges rather than directly outlining the limits to privilege, but maybe just this once they can get republicans to vote against executive privilege. I am not counting on it but they have short memories and perhaps their blind partisanship will make them forget that it is a power they have strongly supported, at least while they had a president in office. All for it, if it will hold ten minutes into a republican administration.

 

[Vidi]

You really didn't use your words carefully how do you know the tactics of the operation didn't change? No two law enforcement stings are the same.

I know because Ive read all the links.

The first "gunwalking" operation was Operation:Wide reciever. It began in early 2006. Another probe, Project Gunrunner, to the best of my knowledge, began in 2007 ran for several months before being shut down on Oct 6, 2007. Several guns were lost in both operations. In the second the mexican government had no involvement BUt were informed once the guns crossed the border, but they lost the suspects.

Then on Oct 26, 2009 Fast and Furious began using the same gunwalking tactic that had already been tried, failed and then rejected.

But weve been over this already. Those are the FACTS. Only the blind partisans are denying them. Those on the left who falsely claim that the operation was inherited from the bush administration and those that falsely claim that its a pure invention of the Obama administration.

Just because they dealt with guns doesn't mean they used the same tactics.

First, there was a typo in my previous post. Gunrunner started in 2005 not 2007

second, gunwalking was used as a tactic in all three operations. Gunwalking is the tactic everyone is having a problem with.

First, some background. Like so many border programs run amok, Project Gunrunner was the spawn of Beltway bipartisanship. It was established in 2005 as a pilot project under the Bush administration and run by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives. The intended goal of the program’s sting operations: stop illicit firearms trafficking along the Southwest border through close surveillance of undercover gun purchases and coordinated intervention with Mexico. The deadly result: federally sanctioned gunwalking of high-powered weapons from U.S. officials right into the hands of drug-cartel killers

Project Gunrunner - Michelle Malkin - National Review Online

Gun trafficking to Mexico is a nationwide problem with consequences on both sides of the border. In response, ATF implemented Project Gunrunner in 2006 as a comprehensive strategy to reduce firearms and explosives related violent crime associated with Mexican criminal organizations operating in the U.S. and Mexico by preventing these organizations from unlawfully acquiring and trafficking firearms and explosives.

ATF Online - Firearms - Programs - Project Gunrunner

Wide Reciever

In March 2006 he signed a contract making him a confidential informant, with the promise that he would be paid unspecified rewards for helping to shut down a weapons pipeline to Mexico. “I thought I was doing something good,” says Detty, 52, a tall man who favors a basic firing-range wardrobe: solid-colored shirt, khaki trousers, and tan, high-laced combat boots. Beyond any rewards, he would also make a profit—in the form of his take from the undercover sales.

Over the next 19 months, Detty sold a series of suspected traffickers some 450 rifles and handguns—AR-15s, knockoff AK-47s, Colt .38s—all under the aegis of the ATF investigation. Hundreds of hours of conversations were taped. The guns were tracked, court filings show, and U.S. agents had fleeting contacts with Mexican police. But the investigation did not achieve its ambitious goals. The vast majority of the guns were never recovered by U.S. authorities. No kingpins were apprehended, no cartel taken down. Mexico’s drug war raged on.

The Guns That Got Away - Businessweek

Same tactic.

That DOES NOT mean "Bush did it too!" Nor does it excuse the ATF and Holder from using the tactic, IN FACT, it makes it WORSE because they tried to use a tactic that had already been proven a failure.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I know because Ive read all the links.

The first "gunwalking" operation was Operation:Wide reciever. It began in early 2006. Another probe, Project Gunrunner, to the best of my knowledge, began in 2007 ran for several months before being shut down on Oct 6, 2007. Several guns were lost in both operations. In the second the mexican government had no involvement BUt were informed once the guns crossed the border, but they lost the suspects.

Then on Oct 26, 2009 Fast and Furious began using the same gunwalking tactic that had already been tried, failed and then rejected.

But weve been over this already. Those are the FACTS. Only the blind partisans are denying them. Those on the left who falsely claim that the operation was inherited from the bush administration and those that falsely claim that its a pure invention of the Obama administration.

Just because they dealt with guns doesn't mean they used the same tactics.

First, there was a typo in my previous post. Gunrunner started in 2005 not 2007

second, gunwalking was used as a tactic in all three operations. Gunwalking is the tactic everyone is having a problem with.

Gun trafficking to Mexico is a nationwide problem with consequences on both sides of the border. In response, ATF implemented Project Gunrunner in 2006 as a comprehensive strategy to reduce firearms and explosives related violent crime associated with Mexican criminal organizations operating in the U.S. and Mexico by preventing these organizations from unlawfully acquiring and trafficking firearms and explosives.

ATF Online - Firearms - Programs - Project Gunrunner

Wide Reciever

In March 2006 he signed a contract making him a confidential informant, with the promise that he would be paid unspecified rewards for helping to shut down a weapons pipeline to Mexico. “I thought I was doing something good,” says Detty, 52, a tall man who favors a basic firing-range wardrobe: solid-colored shirt, khaki trousers, and tan, high-laced combat boots. Beyond any rewards, he would also make a profit—in the form of his take from the undercover sales.

Over the next 19 months, Detty sold a series of suspected traffickers some 450 rifles and handguns—AR-15s, knockoff AK-47s, Colt .38s—all under the aegis of the ATF investigation. Hundreds of hours of conversations were taped. The guns were tracked, court filings show, and U.S. agents had fleeting contacts with Mexican police. But the investigation did not achieve its ambitious goals. The vast majority of the guns were never recovered by U.S. authorities. No kingpins were apprehended, no cartel taken down. Mexico’s drug war raged on.

The Guns That Got Away - Businessweek

Same tactic.

That DOES NOT mean "Bush did it too!" Nor does it excuse the ATF and Holder from using the tactic, IN FACT, it makes it WORSE because they tried to use a tactic that had already been proven a failure.

Dude lighten up I wasn't giging you on any typos

 

[EriktheRed]

I know because Ive read all the links.

The first "gunwalking" operation was Operation:Wide reciever. It began in early 2006. Another probe, Project Gunrunner, to the best of my knowledge, began in 2007 ran for several months before being shut down on Oct 6, 2007. Several guns were lost in both operations. In the second the mexican government had no involvement BUt were informed once the guns crossed the border, but they lost the suspects.

Then on Oct 26, 2009 Fast and Furious began using the same gunwalking tactic that had already been tried, failed and then rejected.

But weve been over this already. Those are the FACTS. Only the blind partisans are denying them. Those on the left who falsely claim that the operation was inherited from the bush administration and those that falsely claim that its a pure invention of the Obama administration.

Just because they dealt with guns doesn't mean they used the same tactics.

First, there was a typo in my previous post. Gunrunner started in 2005 not 2007

second, gunwalking was used as a tactic in all three operations. Gunwalking is the tactic everyone is having a problem with.

Gun trafficking to Mexico is a nationwide problem with consequences on both sides of the border. In response, ATF implemented Project Gunrunner in 2006 as a comprehensive strategy to reduce firearms and explosives related violent crime associated with Mexican criminal organizations operating in the U.S. and Mexico by preventing these organizations from unlawfully acquiring and trafficking firearms and explosives.

ATF Online - Firearms - Programs - Project Gunrunner

Wide Reciever

In March 2006 he signed a contract making him a confidential informant, with the promise that he would be paid unspecified rewards for helping to shut down a weapons pipeline to Mexico. “I thought I was doing something good,” says Detty, 52, a tall man who favors a basic firing-range wardrobe: solid-colored shirt, khaki trousers, and tan, high-laced combat boots. Beyond any rewards, he would also make a profit—in the form of his take from the undercover sales.

Over the next 19 months, Detty sold a series of suspected traffickers some 450 rifles and handguns—AR-15s, knockoff AK-47s, Colt .38s—all under the aegis of the ATF investigation. Hundreds of hours of conversations were taped. The guns were tracked, court filings show, and U.S. agents had fleeting contacts with Mexican police. But the investigation did not achieve its ambitious goals. The vast majority of the guns were never recovered by U.S. authorities. No kingpins were apprehended, no cartel taken down. Mexico’s drug war raged on.

The Guns That Got Away - Businessweek

Same tactic.

That DOES NOT mean "Bush did it too!" Nor does it excuse the ATF and Holder from using the tactic, IN FACT, it makes it WORSE because they tried to use a tactic that had already been proven a failure.

Now there's a good argument against Holder. Doesn't seem like Issa and co. are using it, though. Instead, they seem to prefer to use a half-baked conspiracy theory to rile up the paranoid wingnut base.