Big Business Got Greedy

40k was worth 40k?

what?

so your premise is that 40k doesn't take you as far as it did 10 years ago?

well no shit, thats what happens.

40k in Clintons time wasn't what it was during Reagens either

Also, I understand the rich pay mor ein taxes, where I have a problem i sgiving people who already don't pay taxes more free money by taking it away from people that work for it

ThomHartmann.com - Roll Back the Reagan Tax Cuts

And you really need to read up on what the GOP has been doing ever since Reagan got into office.

After the Republican Great Depression, FDR put this nation back to work, in part by raising taxes on income above $3 to $4 million a year (in today’s dollars) to 91 percent, and corporate taxes to over 50% of profits. The revenue from those income taxes built dams, roads, bridges, sewers, water systems, schools, hospitals, train stations, railways, an interstate highway system, and airports. It educated a generation returning from World War II. It acted as a cap on the rare but occasional obsessively greedy person taking so much out of the economy that it impoverished the rest of us.

Through the 1950s, though, more and more loopholes for the rich were built into the tax code, so much so that JFK observed in his second debate with Richard Nixon that dropping the top tax rate to 70% but tightening up the loopholes would actually be a tax increase.

JFK pushed through that tax increase to take us back toward FDR/Truman/Eisenhower revenue levels, and we continued to build infrastructure in the US, and even put men on the moon. Health care and college were cheap and widely available. Working people could raise a family and have security in their old age. Every billion dollars (a half-week in Iraq) invested in infrastructure in America created 47,000 good-paying jobs as Americans built America.

But the rich fought back, and won big-time in 1980 when Reagan, until then the fringe “Voodoo economics” candidate who was heading into the election trailing far behind Jimmy Carter, was swept into the White House on a wave of public concern of the Iranians taking US hostages. Reagan promptly cut income taxes on the very rich from 70% down to 27%. Corporate tax rates were also cut so severely that they went from representing over 33% of total federal tax receipts in 1951 to less than 9% in 1983 (they’re still in that neighborhood, the lowest in the industrialized world).

The result was devastating. Our government was suddenly so badly awash in red ink that Reagan doubled the tax paid only by people earning less than $40,000/year (FICA), and then began borrowing from the huge surplus this new tax was accumulating in the Social Security Trust Fund. Even with that, Reagan had to borrow more money in his 8 years than the sum total of all presidents from George Washington to Jimmy Carter combined.

In addition to badly throwing the nation into debt, Reagan’s tax cut blew out the ceiling on the accumulation of wealth, leading to a new Gilded Age and the rise of a generation of super-wealthy that hadn’t been seen since the Robber Baron era of the 1890s or the Roaring 20s.

And, most tragically, Reagan’s tax cuts caused America to stop investing in infrastructure. As a nation, we’ve been coasting since the early 1980s, living on borrowed money while we burn through (in some cases literally) the hospitals, roads, bridges, steam tunnels, and other infrastructure we built in the Golden Age of the Middle Class between the 1940s and the 1980s.

The Associated Press reported on August 4, 2007, that the president of Nike, Mark Parker, “raked in $3.6 million [in compensation] in ‘07.” That’s $13,846 per weekday, $69,230 a week. And yet it would still keep him just below the top 70% tax rate if this were the pre-Reagan era. We had a social consensus that somebody earning around $3 million a year was fine, but above that was really more than anybody needs to live in America.

In the worldview Americans held in the 1930-1980 era, Parker’s compensation was reasonable. But William McGuire (aka in the business press as “Dollar Bill“) taking over $1.6 billion - $1,600,000,000.00 - from the nation’s second largest health insurance company (you wonder where your health care dollars are going?) would have been considered excessive before the “Reagan Revolution.”

There is much discussion of what the floor on earnings should be - the minimum wage - but none about the ceiling. That’s largely because effectively there is no ceiling, and those who control vast wealth in America are happy to have Americans fight over “How poor is too poor?” just so long as nobody asks “How rich is too rich?”

When Reagan dropped the top income tax rate from over 70% down to under 30%, all hell broke loose. With the legal and social restraint to unlimited selfishness removed, “the good of the nation” was replaced by “greed is good” as the primary paradigm.

In the years since then, mind-boggling wealth has risen among fewer than 20,000 people in America (the top 0.01 percent of wage-earners), but their influence has been tremendous. They finance “conservative” think tanks (think Joseph Coors and the Heritage Foundation), change public opinion (Walton heirs funding a covert effort to change the “estate tax” to the “death tax”), lobby congress and the president (who calls the “haves and the have-more’s” his “base”), and work to strip down public institutions.

The middle class is being replaced by the working poor. American infrastructure built with tax revenues during the 1934-1981 is now crumbling and disintegrating. Hospitals and highways and power and water systems have been corporatized. People are dying.

And Bush, following closely in Reagan’s footsteps, is making things worse. As Senator Bernie Sanders pointed out at recent hearings for the confirmation of Bush’s new nominee for the Office of Management and Budget:

Since Bush has been president:

over 5 million people have slipped into poverty;
nearly 7 million Americans have lost their health insurance;
median household income has gone down by nearly $1,300;
three million manufacturing jobs have been lost;
three million American workers have lost their pensions;
home foreclosures are now the highest on record;
the personal savings rate is below zero - which hasn’t happened since the great depression;
the real earnings of college graduates have gone down by about 5% in the last few years;
entry level wages for male and female high school graduates have fallen by over 3%;
wages and salaries are now at the lowest share of GDP since 1929.
The debate about whether or not to roll Bush’s tax cuts back to Clinton’s modest mid-30% rates is absurd. It’s time to roll back the horribly failed experiment of the Reagan tax cuts. And use that money to pay down Reagan’s debt and rebuild this nation.
 
yeah, well I stopped reading after you linked something about FDR putting people to work, when his policies prolonged the great depression by 10 years.

Did FDR ever see anything lower then 15, 17% unemployment?
 
yeah, well I stopped reading after you linked something about FDR putting people to work, when his policies prolonged the great depression by 10 years.

Did FDR ever see anything lower then 15, 17% unemployment?

Reagan promptly cut income taxes on the very rich from 70% down to 27%. Corporate tax rates were also cut so severely that they went from representing over 33% of total federal tax receipts in 1951 to less than 9% in 1983 (they’re still in that neighborhood, the lowest in the industrialized world).

The result was devastating. Our government was suddenly so badly awash in red ink that Reagan doubled the tax paid only by people earning less than $40,000/year (FICA), and then began borrowing from the huge surplus this new tax was accumulating in the Social Security Trust Fund. Even with that, Reagan had to borrow more money in his 8 years than the sum total of all presidents from George Washington to Jimmy Carter combined.

In addition to badly throwing the nation into debt, Reagan’s tax cut blew out the ceiling on the accumulation of wealth, leading to a new Gilded Age and the rise of a generation of super-wealthy that hadn’t been seen since the Robber Baron era of the 1890s or the Roaring 20s.

And, most tragically, Reagan’s tax cuts caused America to stop investing in infrastructure. As a nation, we’ve been coasting since the early 1980s, living on borrowed money while we burn through (in some cases literally) the hospitals, roads, bridges, steam tunnels, and other infrastructure we built in the Golden Age of the Middle Class between the 1940s and the 1980s.

When Reagan dropped the top income tax rate from over 70% down to under 30%, all hell broke loose. With the legal and social restraint to unlimited selfishness removed, “the good of the nation” was replaced by “greed is good” as the primary paradigm.

In the years since then, mind-boggling wealth has risen among fewer than 20,000 people in America (the top 0.01 percent of wage-earners), but their influence has been tremendous. They finance “conservative” think tanks (think Joseph Coors and the Heritage Foundation), change public opinion (Walton heirs funding a covert effort to change the “estate tax” to the “death tax”), lobby congress and the president (who calls the “haves and the have-more’s” his “base”), and work to strip down public institutions.

The middle class is being replaced by the working poor. American infrastructure built with tax revenues during the 1934-1981 is now crumbling and disintegrating. Hospitals and highways and power and water systems have been corporatized. People are dying.

Since Bush has been president:

over 5 million people have slipped into poverty;
nearly 7 million Americans have lost their health insurance;
median household income has gone down by nearly $1,300;
three million manufacturing jobs have been lost;
three million American workers have lost their pensions;
home foreclosures are now the highest on record;
the personal savings rate is below zero - which hasn’t happened since the great depression;
the real earnings of college graduates have gone down by about 5% in the last few years;
entry level wages for male and female high school graduates have fallen by over 3%;
wages and salaries are now at the lowest share of GDP since 1929.
The debate about whether or not to roll Bush’s tax cuts back to Clinton’s modest mid-30% rates is absurd. It’s time to roll back the horribly failed experiment of the Reagan tax cuts. And use that money to pay down Reagan’s debt and rebuild this nation.
 
yeah, well I stopped reading after you linked something about FDR putting people to work, when his policies prolonged the great depression by 10 years.

Did FDR ever see anything lower then 15, 17% unemployment?

I can continue to shorten it. Just tell me what you don't like and I'll get rid of it. Then we can discuss the facts that remain.

Ultimately, the rich aren't paying their fair share in taxes.

The arguments you use are the ones Reagan and Bush used to slash these taxes. And now you see the country is falling apart, but you say that if we raise their taxes, the country will fall apart.

These taxes, before Reagan cut them drastically, built America's infrastructure.

Corporations SHOULD be paying taxes. Under Bushanomics, they didn't. You can show me they paid billions, but then I can show you where they used loopholes and sneaky tax breaks to get that money back.

Leona Helmsley says the rich don't pay taxes. If you pay too much in taxes, you aren't rich. Or you have a lousy accountant.
 
I can continue to shorten it. Just tell me what you don't like and I'll get rid of it. Then we can discuss the facts that remain.

Facts?! You want to start talking about facts? That's fucking rich bobo. Like the 'fact' that I must be rich because I'm so 'arrogant'?

Like the 'fact' that most business owners are just money grubbing, back stabbing, tight wads that would sell their souls to the devil for a buck?

Like the 'fact' that in your fucked up world where the rich couldn't possibly have worked for their wealth and the poor are just victims?

Like the 'fact' that fair in your fucked up world is where 'fair' is defined as being where tax revenue suppossedly benefits everyone, but only the rich should have to pay them?

You wanna talk about facts. I suggest you take ALL of them into account. Not just your made up, baseless assumptions or the ones that are most convenient for you.
 
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Facts?! You want to start talking about facts? That's fucking rich bobo. Like the 'fact' that I must be rich because I'm so 'arrogant'.

Like the 'fact' that most business owners are just money grubbing, back stabbing, tight wads that would sell their souls to the devil for a buck?

Like the 'fact' that in your fucked up world where the rich couldn't possibly of worked for their wealth and the poor are just victims?

Like the 'fact' that fair in your fucked up world is where 'fair' is defined as being where tax revenue suppossedly benefits everyone, but only the rich should have to pay them?

You wanna talk about facts. I suggest you take ALL of them into account. Not your made up, baseless assumptions or the ones that are most convenient for you.

Give it up Bern.

I promise myself that i will not get sucked into BoBos circular arguments but I still do.

You can give him all the facts and opposing data to what he says and all you'll get is ,"It's the GOP that sent all the jobs overseas" The fact that he can't see how insane that statement is tells you you are wasting your time.

So I'll make a deal with you, if you answer a BoBo post, I'll slap you real hard and you can do the same for me.
 
Give it up Bern.

I promise myself that i will not get sucked into BoBos circular arguments but I still do.

You can give him all the facts and opposing data to what he says and all you'll get is ,"It's the GOP that sent all the jobs overseas" The fact that he can't see how insane that statement is tells you you are wasting your time.

So I'll make a deal with you, if you answer a BoBo post, I'll slap you real hard and you can do the same for me.

Wow, two bitches slapping each other. That's hot!
 
Give it up Bern.

I promise myself that i will not get sucked into BoBos circular arguments but I still do.

You can give him all the facts and opposing data to what he says and all you'll get is ,"It's the GOP that sent all the jobs overseas" The fact that he can't see how insane that statement is tells you you are wasting your time.

So I'll make a deal with you, if you answer a BoBo post, I'll slap you real hard and you can do the same for me.[/QUOTE]









:lol::lol::lol::clap2:
 
Facts?! You want to start talking about facts? That's fucking rich bobo. Like the 'fact' that I must be rich because I'm so 'arrogant'?

Like the 'fact' that in your fucked up world where the rich couldn't possibly have worked for their wealth and the poor are just victims?

You wanna talk about facts. I suggest you take ALL of them into account. Not just your made up, baseless assumptions or the ones that are most convenient for you.


No, like the facts I laid out about how much taxes have been cut for the rich and corporations since Reagan got into office. I think taxes were fair before Reagan started cutting them. How about that?

Supposedly so did a lot of other people, because the tax rates were where they were because someone (congress) decided that's where they should be. So Republicans have been cutting corporate/rich tax rates for 30 years. And I believe they went too far under this Bush.

And it's hard to even take you guys seriously. You say Bush tried to fix the mess but Democrats stopped him. Really? Because I remember 8 years of you all defending every action/move that the GOP made. Now you want to say you aren't Bushies? You sure argue like Bushies.

I think after FDR rebuilt America with Corporate taxes, their argument was that it was time they got some tax breaks, and maybe they were right. But they went too far, especially because the debt skyrocketted. Is that all GOP's fault? No, but now the Dems haven't been in power since 1991. The one who was, Clinton, did a bang up job.

And only the rich have any money. So at least in this economy, i absolutely believe that the rich should pick up the slack for the poor and middle class. When the economy gets back on track, we can talk about lowering their taxes again. But that will mean balanced budgets first. Social security fixed first. Bridges, roads and levys built first. Wars finished. Unemployment low first.

You'll see. Just watch and see what Obama does. That's what I'm talking about. And when it works, don't say I didn't tell you so. Just like I/we warned you that this economy was going to tank and you argued with us. And now you want to say you were the ones that tried to fix the meltdown and we stopped you? How rediculous.

Of course I think it's fair that the working poor pay zero taxes. $40k with a family is poor. So maybe the $1 million dollar taxed at 50% was extreme, but if it's either raise the rich taxes or get it from the poor, I say take it from the rich. That's how it works here in America. Always has. You guys pushed for tax breaks but then your spending went out of control. Mostly because Bush raped the treasury thru Iraq. That caused inflation. Deregulations allowed the banks to go wild and I beleive they pushed the envelope knowing they'd get bailed out. In other words, this was all planned.

Anyways, you guys make it sound like I want to take advantage of the rich. The fact is, they stole the last two elections and took advantage of America. They raped the treasury. On purpose? No question.

So now you can distance yourselves from Bush and at the same time defend every policy he ever had.

It's my Birthday today by the way. 38 years old.
 
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i warned you bern
 

And I don't think you are a demon Skull. I respect your opinion and might see things similarly if I owned a business. But I know a lot of business owners who see things like I do. Maybe one difference is that they own business' that rely on the Big three. Or maybe they don't care as much about taxes as you do. They are more concerned with getting the masses out spending money again, because that's how they make money.

Now as for Bern my fellow worker bee, guys like him I'll never understand.

And what I think is happening in Corporate America, doesn't mean I suggest you are doing it to your employees too. Many American small business owners are very patriotic and want their employees to make good money and want good jobs to stay in America. I believe you do, but you just don't care about people in other groups. Like you want your 10 employees to make good money if they earn it, but you don't think line workers at the big 3 deserve what they make. And with some of them, you may have a point.

I'm also sorry you aren't hearing where I'm coming from, but I'm positive you don't think I'm hearing you either. I am. And I agree that the government should not get involved any more than they need to in business and they shouldn't spend anymore than is absolutely necessary and if that all happened, then we should all pay as little in taxes as necessary. I totally agree.

But we may never agree on what the right tax system should be. Flat tax, progressive tax, no income tax, only a sales tax. Tax the rich a little less and the middle class a little more. Cut everyone's taxes and keep doubling the debt.

Or you might never agree with me on who fucked up this economy or how to solve it, but at least we both want it fixed.

I also don't think you understand or will admit just how bad this economy is. I think that because you seem to suggest that anyone who doesn't like the pay they are making can just go get another job. Yea, in this economy? :cuckoo:

But one thing I'm sure, you seem like a good American who only wants what is right/fair.

They say people are born with conservative or liberal gene's. I happen to be wired liberal. Sorry. :eusa_drool:
 
I don't worry about "fairness" because there is no such thing.

I worry about doing the right thing. And that , to me at least, is being responsible for my obligations, taking care of my family, not being a burden to anyone and keeping my nose out of other peoples' lives.

I do not judge someone's income as too much or too little. In the case of the auto workers, I haven't decided that their business model is unsupportable, the fact that the auto industry is failing because labor costs are too high decided that. the market decides which jobs are worth more not me and right now a guy who installs 2 screws and a nut all day isn't deemed very valuable to the market is he?

I don't presume to say what other people should or shouldn't do with their money or in their lives because frankly it's none of my business but then again when those same people make bad decisions I am not responsible, nor should I be called uponto bail them out.

I do however have the right to say the government should tax me and everybody less and the government should be forced to spend less, do with less and not be a burden on the tax payers as it is now. Government should be so small as to not be noticeable in our daily lives and everyone should pay the same percentage of their income to the government. Personally I think it should be something around 15% of gross income no more, but everyone pays.

but since I am

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I will

$imrickjamesbitch5dt.gif

slap my self
 
No, like the facts I laid out about how much taxes have been cut for the rich and corporations since Reagan got into office. I think taxes were fair before Reagan started cutting them. How about that?

Supposedly so did a lot of other people, because the tax rates were where they were because someone (congress) decided that's where they should be. So Republicans have been cutting corporate/rich tax rates for 30 years. And I believe they went too far under this Bush.

Thren we need to have serious conversation about what the word 'fair' means. You stated quite clearly that fair to you is where the rich pay all taxes and the middle class and poor pay none. That can not in any way shape or form be called fair. It can be called a lot a things, but it can not be called a fair distribution of tax burden.

[/B]And it's hard to even take you guys seriously. You say Bush tried to fix the mess but Democrats stopped him. Really? Because I remember 8 years of you all defending every action/move that the GOP made. Now you want to say you aren't Bushies? You sure argue like Bushies.

If you want to respond to me, focus it on what I have said. I have not brought up Bush or what any adminisitration has done with regards to the economy. In fact, I think I have been quite clear that as far as wealth accumulation is concerned, what party is in office is irrelevant. SO GET THE FUCK OFF IT.

And only the rich have any money. So at least in this economy, i absolutely believe that the rich should pick up the slack for the poor and middle class. When the economy gets back on track, we can talk about lowering their taxes again. But that will mean balanced budgets first. Social security fixed first. Bridges, roads and levys built first. Wars finished. Unemployment low first.

Why should anyone feel it is their OBLIGATION to make up for a lack of effort on the part of someone else?

You'll see. Just watch and see what Obama does. That's what I'm talking about. And when it works, don't say I didn't tell you so. Just like I/we warned you that this economy was going to tank and you argued with us. And now you want to say you were the ones that tried to fix the meltdown and we stopped you? How rediculous.

I REPEAT, IF YOU ARE GOING TO ATTRIBUTE THINGS TO ME IN THE FORM OF 'YOU GUYS' MAKE SURE I ACTUALLY FUCKING SAID IT.

I think it may be you that needs to watch Obama seeing as how even he seems to be getting that raising taxes on businesses right now doesn't make a lot of economic sense.

Of course I think it's fair that the working poor pay zero taxes. $40k with a family is poor. So maybe the $1 million dollar taxed at 50% was extreme, but if it's either raise the rich taxes or get it from the poor, I say take it from the rich. That's how it works here in America. Always has. You guys pushed for tax breaks but then your spending went out of control. Mostly because Bush raped the treasury thru Iraq. That caused inflation. Deregulations allowed the banks to go wild and I beleive they pushed the envelope knowing they'd get bailed out. In other words, this was all planned.

No it isn't. The American dream is that YOU can acheive whatever YOU work for. Perhaps people should consider their financial position when they have a family and take some responsibility. It can in no way shape or form be considered fair to distribute taxes the tax burden in that manner.

Our government collects taxes for a wide variety of reasons, roads, police, fire departments, social programs, etc. EVERYBODY experiences benefit from many of those things. On top of that one can easily make the arugment that the poor use a greater amount of the programs funded by those tax dollars. You are just plain dead wrong on this. It is absolutely not fair to ask that only a segement of society pay for the benefits of everyone AND pay for many of things they don't even use (i.e. welfare).

Anyways, you guys make it sound like I want to take advantage of the rich. The fact is, they stole the last two elections and took advantage of America. They raped the treasury. On purpose? No question.

So now you can distance yourselves from Bush and at the same time defend every policy he ever had.

It's my Birthday today by the way. 38 years old.

If you're 38 then I trully feel sorry for you. How did you get to be that age and this stupid? You complain about all these things and don't get people with you mentality are the root cause of so much of it. You believe you are entitled to all this shit just because. You seemingly lack any aspect of personal accountablitity or responsibility. And unfortunately there are only going to be more of you in the future. More people that don't understand the are take responsibility for their postion in life. Christ man, I'm 28 and figured this out. We are fucking doomed.
 
Thren we need to have serious conversation about what the word 'fair' means. You stated quite clearly that fair to you is where the rich pay all taxes and the middle class and poor pay none. That can not in any way shape or form be called fair. It can be called a lot a things, but it can not be called a fair distribution of tax burden.



If you want to respond to me, focus it on what I have said. I have not brought up Bush or what any adminisitration has done with regards to the economy. In fact, I think I have been quite clear that as far as wealth accumulation is concerned, what party is in office is irrelevant. SO GET THE FUCK OFF IT.



Why should anyone feel it is their OBLIGATION to make up for a lack of effort on the part of someone else?



I REPEAT, IF YOU ARE GOING TO ATTRIBUTE THINGS TO ME IN THE FORM OF 'YOU GUYS' MAKE SURE I ACTUALLY FUCKING SAID IT.

I think it may be you that needs to watch Obama seeing as how even he seems to be getting that raising taxes on businesses right now doesn't make a lot of economic sense.



No it isn't. The American dream is that YOU can acheive whatever YOU work for. Perhaps people should consider their financial position when they have a family and take some responsibility. It can in no way shape or form be considered fair to distribute taxes the tax burden in that manner.

Our government collects taxes for a wide variety of reasons, roads, police, fire departments, social programs, etc. EVERYBODY experiences benefit from many of those things. On top of that one can easily make the arugment that the poor use a greater amount of the programs funded by those tax dollars. You are just plain dead wrong on this. It is absolutely not fair to ask that only a segement of society pay for the benefits of everyone AND pay for many of things they don't even use (i.e. welfare).



If you're 38 then I trully feel sorry for you. How did you get to be that age and this stupid? You complain about all these things and don't get people with you mentality are the root cause of so much of it. You believe you are entitled to all this shit just because. You seemingly lack any aspect of personal accountablitity or responsibility. And unfortunately there are only going to be more of you in the future. More people that don't understand the are take responsibility for their postion in life. Christ man, I'm 28 and figured this out. We are fucking doomed.

Parts from an Article on Obama's new Economic Team:

We need to move the country in a new direction, and not continue the same old practices that have gotten us into the fix we're in.

Volcker helped tame inflation by raising interest rates, despite intense opposition by some in Congress. Volcker's moves helped plunge the economy into recession in the short-term, but he was later credited with reviving the economy by getting inflation under control.

"As soon as the recovery is well under way, we need to set up a long-term plan to reduce the structural deficit and make sure we are not leaving a mountain of debt for the next generation," he said.
Americans' disposable income fell at an annual rate of 9.2 percent in the same period, the largest drop in records that date to 1947.

number of Americans using government-subsidized food stamps to buy groceries was expected to pass 30 million this month, a new record. (IT'S ALL THEIR FAULT. AND THE PEOPLE THAT SUFFERED IN THE GREAT DEPRESSION, WAS THEIR FAULT TOO) (OR, IT WAS NO ONE'S FAULT, OR EVERYONE'S FAULT)

Obama said bank executives should make sacrifices because so many other people are struggling (WHAT IS THIS? WHY SHOULD THEY SACRAFICE? THEY AREN'T RESPONSIBLE FOR POOR PEOPLE'S POSITIONS IN LIFE!!!)

"I think that if you are already worth tens of millions of dollars, and you are having to lay off workers," Obama said, "the least you can do is say, 'I'm willing to make some sacrifice as well, because I recognize that there are people who are a lot less well off, who are going through some pretty tough times.'"

(I CAN'T BELIEVE HE SAID THAT! WHAT A SOCIALIST!!!!)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27924569/page/2/
 
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Is closing loopholes and raising taxes the same thing? Because I believe Obama will close loopholes so corporations can't avoid paying taxes.

If that is a tax increase, Obama will raise taxes on the rich.

And he will let Bush's tax breaks expire. This one I'm not completely sure about. I'll be pissed if he extends them.

I don't think Obama will lay all his cards on the table until Bush is out of office because anything Obama says, Bush can react to right now.

Bush is still dangerous.
 
Is closing loopholes and raising taxes the same thing? Because I believe Obama will close loopholes so corporations can't avoid paying taxes.

If that is a tax increase, Obama will raise taxes on the rich.

And he will let Bush's tax breaks expire. This one I'm not completely sure about. I'll be pissed if he extends them.


I don't think Obama will lay all his cards on the table until Bush is out of office because anything Obama says, Bush can react to right now.

Bush is still dangerous.

that doesn't jibe with what you want (rich pay all and middle/poor pay nothing). Still waiting for an explanation as to why that's 'fair' btw.

if you want people to start addressing your points, then it also falls on you to actuall respond to what is written so a conversation can be had. I realize i am long winded but it isnt a ton of work to use the quote function like the rest of us to respond to specific points.


I am all for making the tax code simpler to the point where loopholes (kinda of a misnomer) don't exist. I think you are not being entirely honest. You want the tax cuts to expire for the rich only, because the Bush tax cuts really do expire, then EVERYONE's taxes go up.
 
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that doesn't jibe with what you want (rich pay all and middle/poor pay nothing). Still waiting for an explanation as to why that's 'fair' btw.

if you want people to start addressing your points, then it also falls on you to actuall respond to what is written so a conversation can be had. I realize i am long winded but it isnt a ton of work to use the quote function like the rest of us to respond to specific points.


I am all for making the tax code simpler to the point where loopholes (kinda of a misnomer) don't exist. I think you are not being entirely honest. You want the tax cuts to expire for the rich only, because the Bush tax cuts really do expire, then EVERYONE's taxes go up.

http://www.thomhartmann.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=123&Itemid=38

Once the rich and powerful gain control of the government, they turn it upon itself, usually first eliminating its taxation process as it applies to themselves.
"General Electric Co., for example, reported paying an effective tax rate of 19% last year on world-wide income, compared with 26% in 2003."
Corporations are taxed because they use public services, and are therefore expected to help pay for them - the same as citizens.
Corporations make use of a work force educated in public schools paid for with tax dollars. They use roads and highways paid for with tax dollars. They use water, sewer, and power and communications rights-of-way paid for with taxes. They demand the same protection from fire and police departments as everybody else, and enjoy the benefits of national sovereignty and the stability provided by the military and institutions like NATO and the United Nations, the same as all residents of democratic nations.
In fact, corporations are heavier users of taxpayer-provided services and institutions than are average citizens. Taxes pay for our court systems, which are most heavily used by corporations to enforce contracts. Taxes pay for our Treasury Department and other governmental institutions which maintain a stable currency essential to corporate activity. Taxes pay for our regulation of corporate activity, from assuring safety in the workplace to a pure food and drug supply to limiting toxic emissions.
Under George W. Bush, the burden of cleaning up toxic wastes produced by corporate activity has largely shifted from polluter-funded Superfund and other programs to taxpayer-funded cleanups (as he did in Texas as governor there before becoming President).
Every year, millions of cases of cancer, emphysema, neurological disorders, and other conditions caused by corporate pollution are paid for in whole or in part by government funded programs from Medicare to Medicaid to government subsidies of hospitals, universities, and research institutions funded by tax dollars through the NIH and NIMH.
Because it's well understood that corporations use our tax-funded institutions at least as heavily as do citizens, they've traditionally been taxed at similar rates. For example, the top corporate tax rate in the US was 48% during the Carter administration, down from the a peak of 53% during the Eisenhower and Kennedy years.
Today it stands at 35%, but in May of 2001 Bush administration Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill suggested there should be no corporate income tax whatsoever. This was the opening salvo in a very real war to have working people bear all the costs of the commons and governance, while the wealthy corporate elite derive most of its benefits.
And, as George H.W. Bush pointed out when he was president, this isn't just an American phenomenon. It's a New World Order.
A cornerstone of the conservative movement to consolidate power in the hands of a wealthy corporate elite, the campaign to end corporate income taxes altogether - and leave the rest of us to pick up the entire tab for corporate use of our institutions and corporation despoliation of our commons - first picked up steam when Reagan came to power in 1980.
The December 1, 2004 Washington Times article, titled "End Corporate Income Tax," reflects a powerful and growing movement not just in the United States but across the world. So-called "free trade" agreements and supranational institutions like the WTO have given multinational corporations control of the economic lives of nations that were previously democracies. Holland, Ireland, Germany, Portugal, Belgium - the list goes on and on.
In a feudal state, as Bloch reminds us, the nobles need not pay taxes.
And as Mussolini told us, the newest form of feudalism has been reinvented and renamed. He called it "fascism" - a word that was defined by The American Heritage Dictionary (Houghton Mifflin Company, 1983) as "fas-cism (fash'iz'em) n. A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism."
We are quickly shifting toward a corporate-run state in countries all over the world. It appears "free" and even allows elections, albeit they are only among candidates funded and approved by corporate powers, held on voting machines owned by those corporate powers, and marketed in media owned by those corporate powers.
But this bears little resemblance to the democratic republic envisioned by our nation's Founders.
If our elected representatives - and those of other "free" nations - don't quickly wake up and reverse course, we will soon again be in a feudal world. And it's up to us - We the People - to help them awaken.
 
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that doesn't jibe with what you want (rich pay all and middle/poor pay nothing). Still waiting for an explanation as to why that's 'fair' btw.

I am all for making the tax code simpler to the point where loopholes (kinda of a misnomer) don't exist. I think you are not being entirely honest. You want the tax cuts to expire for the rich only, because the Bush tax cuts really do expire, then EVERYONE's taxes go up.

Do you agree with this guy?

In May of 2001 Bush administration Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill suggested there should be no corporate income tax whatsoever.


I, along with Thom Hartmann, believe this was the opening salvo in a very real war to have working people bear all the costs of the commons and governance, while the wealthy corporate elite derive most of its benefits.

And you don't think there isn't class warfare going on? The GOP got control in 2000 and whether you want to admit it or not, have passed tax laws that benefit them but hurt America. If you don't think so, just turn on the news.

What makes you think the tax scheme before Reagan was unfair? You say what I'm proposing is unfair. Please justify that lowering corporate tax rates in the 80's was needed/necessary or the right thing to do.

I don't think sending manufacturing overseas was the right thing to do either. What if China/Japan attacks us again? Will we have Honda/Toyota build our bombs/tanks/ships?

But the GOP gave corporate America tax breaks to send jobs overseas, in the name of maximizing profits.

Is there a point where you think they can go too far?

I at least understand your position. Of course it isn't "fair" to a rich person for them to pay all of the taxes, but then it isn't fair that some people die because they can't afford aids medicine. And it isn't fair that some people go hungry while other people throw away food. Life isn't fair.

It may not be "fair", but it's right. The rich will get richer off of us.

And since the rich fucked up the economy/home values/our 401k's/inflation, it is only fair that THEY pay to fix what they broke and for the next 20 years, we should pay zero taxes and that will help us retire with some money in our 401K's, and maybe give our homes time to gain some value.

Ok, I just went off on a tangent right at the end, because the more I think about your "it isn't fair" argument, the more I want to puke.

Or do you want to go back to the times when 95% of the populis was working poor/peasants and the handful of Nobles own everything.

And then tell us it isn't right to revolt against these feudal lords. :cuckoo:

Again, I think you are have house slave mentality.
 
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that doesn't jibe with what you want (rich pay all and middle/poor pay nothing). Still waiting for an explanation as to why that's 'fair' btw.

if you want people to start addressing your points, then it also falls on you to actuall respond to what is written so a conversation can be had. I realize i am long winded but it isnt a ton of work to use the quote function like the rest of us to respond to specific points.


I am all for making the tax code simpler to the point where loopholes (kinda of a misnomer) don't exist. I think you are not being entirely honest. You want the tax cuts to expire for the rich only, because the Bush tax cuts really do expire, then EVERYONE's taxes go up.


Thom wrote: Once the rich and powerful gain control of the government, they turn it upon itself, usually first eliminating its taxation process as it applies to themselves.

And that makes me think of this story:

Most Companies Pay No Federal Income Tax
GAO Study Also Finds 68% Of Foreign Companies In U.S. Avoid Corporate Taxes

Most Companies Pay No Federal Income Tax, GAO Study Also Finds 68% Of Foreign Companies In U.S. Avoid Corporate Taxes - CBS News
 

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