Arsenals of Democracy

Discussion in 'Economy' started by Navy1960, Nov 21, 2008.

  1. Navy1960
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    Navy1960 Senior Member

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    Many debates have been held on this board as to the merits of saving or not saving the American Auto companies. I thought I might add a few little known things about them that people may not be aware of. Many people are aware that of course they all make cars. However these companies have been a major part of American life for over 100 years. In fact in World War 2 everything from B-24 Liberators made by GM in Michigan, to Sherman tanks, Jeeps, Anti-Aircraft Guns, and Liberty Ships were made by these companies. They have a long tradition up until GM's recent sale of it's aerospace division to Boeing. GM in fact bought much of Hughes Aircraft which is responsible for such things as Air to Air Missile Technology like in the AIM-120 AMRAAM. Further, they recently sold part of the communications division to News Corporation which for all you people who watch DirectTV "which it was renamed" too have a little GM in every box. As a matter of fact there is a web of technologies that the Big 3 have been involved in the defense industry for many many years, everything from the F-16 to the development of look down shoot down radar. One of the most recognizable is the M1 Tank which was developed by Chrysler Defense which later became part of General Dynamics In Lima Ohio.

    The XM1 Abrams was designed by Chrysler Defense (in 1979, General Dynamics Land Systems Division purchased Chrysler Defense Division) and is currently produced by General Dynamics Corporation in Lima, Ohio, and first entered US Army service in 1980. It was armed with the license built version of the 105 mm Royal Ordnance L7 gun.

    M1 Abrams - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    These companies although for many years have been mismanaged as it applies product and keeping cost in line in order to compete are for the last 100 years very much a part of the American way of life. Not only have they changed the way we lived by giving us the ability to be a mobile society but they have also come when called when this nation needed them most. While I still believe that these companies much change in order to survive and to provide a blank check to them would be a mistake of epic proportions , I do believe that our nation has the ability to solve this issue only if they would muster up the courage to do so. Yes, it would require some sacrifice on the part of EVERYONE that works for these once great companies, but I ask you is it not worth the effort to make a sacrifice , so that future generations of Americans can enjoy the benefits that these companies have given us and the ones they are yet to give?
     
  2. Luissa
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    Luissa Annoying Customer Supporting Member

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    I think they should be helped to reorganize but they need to change quite a bit. Everyone talks about foreign automakers and how toyota's are made here now and all that. Last night on PBS I think they did a break down of what the executives make at say GMC/Chrysler compared to say Toyota! You should really look it up because I do not remember everything. The CEO of Toyota which is more profitable makes a million dollars while the CEO of an american automotive company can't remember which one makes 12.5 million with the company loosing money.
     
  3. editec
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    editec Mr. Forgot-it-All

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    We ought to be oursourcing CEO positions instead of production line workers.
     
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  4. Navy1960
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    Navy1960 Senior Member

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    The point of the post though was to more or less to advocate that that the benefits of an American Industrial base especially with these companies cannot be measured. It was also to point out that these companies need to change in order to compete and in order to keep that Industrial Base and long history alive it takes some sacrifice on the part of everyone that is involved there. There has been a mindset at the Big 3 for many years that is hard to break out of, but time and economic conditions have finally caught up with them and they will now have to change that mind set or die. I for one do not want to see them die but rather would like to see a change in that mind set that would allow these companies to become great once again.
     
  5. Richard-H
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    Richard-H Gold Member

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    You mean the management will have to change their mindset or the workers will die, right?

    At $12.5mil/yr. win or lose, I don't see very much incentive for the management to change their mindset.

    (Hope you answered my poll entitled "How Long")
     
  6. Skull Pilot
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    Skull Pilot Platinum Member

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    For the most part, Americans don't want to sacrifice anything anymore.

    Americans have devolved from a people that used to believe that they had to work, save and sacrifice to get what they wanted to a people that feel entitled to success, wealth and happiness.

    In fact people today are downright, dare I say, jealous of successful folks.

    Have you ever heard someone say, "They're so cheap but they have more money than God." ?

    Have you ever answered that by saying, "They have more money than God because they are so frugal."?

    This whole attitude that somehow people who have become successful by making more sacrifices and working longer and harder than others somehow don't deserve their money is exactly what got Obama elected. He tapped into that jealousy and vindictiveness of people who feel entitled to the big house and the new cars and the expensive vacations even though they've done nothing to earn them and quite frankly can't afford them but buy them anyway.

    So don't expect any employee (and certainly not any union) of an automaker to take a small cut in pay or scale back benefits fro the sake of keeping their employer in business. These people would rather bury the company and be out of work because they have to get what they "deserve" in pay and benefits no matter what the cost.

    It doesn't matter that the guy who does nothing but install 2 screws and a nut all day long gets paid more than a teacher or a person with a masters' degree because he somehow deserves it. He won't take a pay cut or a reduction in benefits even if it means he'll lose his job. God forbid he thinks about taking a second job to make ends meet because he deserves to not work more than 40 hours and he deserves 6 weeks vacation and time off and sick time and personal time.

    Well these guys will get what they deserve. An out of business employer and a spot in the bread line.
     
  7. editec
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    editec Mr. Forgot-it-All

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    Yeah, those people standing in the bread lines are certainly selfish people.

    Imagine expecting a fair break in America?

    What are they...communists?
     
  8. Skull Pilot
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    Skull Pilot Platinum Member

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    Fair break?

    How do you define that ed?

    Is a fair break having a job that pays more than a lot of jobs and then saying "No concessions" even if it means the company they work for goes out of business?

    Is a "fair break" buying a house you can't afford and then getting a government bailout?

    Is a "fair break" taking money from responsible people who don't spend more than they make; money that responsible people could use to take care of their own families and instead give it to companies and corporations that should fail because they practiced poor business?

    Is that "fair" Ed?
     
  9. Richard-H
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    Richard-H Gold Member

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    The idea that the people who work the hardest get the most is plain laughable.

    The people who work the hardest and make the most contribution to society get the least.

    The wealthiest people in America only work at sucking up all the money they can, without making the slightest contribution to the wealth of society.

    Even the educated corporate managers push the responsibilities down to low level workers whie retaining all of the decision making authority. Most of these people couldn't make a common sense decision if their lives depended upon it. It's the low level workers that always have to compensate for the incompetence of management by working harder.

    You obviously have never worked in a factory and don't have a clue about what workers do in a factory. I doubt you've ever actually created a physical item in your life.

    If there are to be cuts in compensation, let's start with cutbacks in executive compensation.
     
  10. Skull Pilot
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    Skull Pilot Platinum Member

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    You have No fucking idea where I have worked so here's a little Skull Pilot Bio for you.

    Raised by a single mother after my father who was a Navy pilot was killed in a crash when I was 2

    Mother remarried an abusive asshole who bruised and bloodied me more than a few times

    Straight A Student who skipped 2 grades

    Got my first paper route at 10 had the biggest route in town at 13

    Worked 40 hours a week since I was 16 Did asphalt roofing, worked a loading dock, worked construction, painted houses, drove delivery trucks

    Put myself through college working a full time night job and running a house cleaning business on days I didn't have class

    graduated with a 3.9

    Flash forward two years ago my wife and I risked absolutely everything we had to start a business. If it failed, we would have been sleeping in our car.

    So don't whine to me that I don't know what hard work is.

    In fact, I am still putting in 70 hours a week.

    And you want me to feel bad for some union hack who turns a screw for 8 hours a day and probably gets paid more than I pay myself right now?

    Sorry if I don't feel bad for some whiny asshole who cries that he needs a fucking bail out with my money
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2008

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