Aren't Private Companies In The Business Of Making Profit?

[MarcATL]

I guess you got a good DMV. Try one in NYC one time. Enjoy the 3 hour wait to get your registration renewed. And by ignoring thier customer base I mean that as a customer at the DMV you basically have NO ability to change how they do things. It's thier way or the highway. Right now if you wanted to switch medical insurance providers, you could. Once you get single payer, that goes bye bye. Welcome to the Department of Medical Serivces, DMS.

I used to live in NYC and have used the DMV there, its better than here in ATL. As bad as it is. You can't get out of the lines and long wait in most public services. What you can do is plan for them, things like waking up earlier, making appointments when you can, etc.

 

[martybegan]

When something is free and a lot of people are using it as a service, a wait is usually involved. One cannot escape that. In the free market, you PAY for not having to wait. What the Dems are proposing is to put the public option on the table, let the free market handle it.

Those of you on the right who want to feel exclusive and get fast access to top notch healthcare...just shell out a little extra. PAY for it. Those of us who don't mind the wait will have the FREEDOM to CHOOSE the public option.

If the public option is as terrible as you on the right say it is, it will go by the wayside.

That's how the free market works. Isn't it?

Except it will be my taxes funding the subsidy for your public option. People keep leaving that part out. If the public option was funded soley by premiums paid by those participating, fine, but I doubt that is the case. The goverment will end up covering any shortfall.

 

[martybegan]

I guess you got a good DMV. Try one in NYC one time. Enjoy the 3 hour wait to get your registration renewed. And by ignoring thier customer base I mean that as a customer at the DMV you basically have NO ability to change how they do things. It's thier way or the highway. Right now if you wanted to switch medical insurance providers, you could. Once you get single payer, that goes bye bye. Welcome to the Department of Medical Serivces, DMS.

I used to live in NYC and have used the DMV there, its better than here in ATL. As bad as it is. You can't get out of the lines and long wait in most public services. What you can do is plan for them, things like waking up earlier, making appointments when you can, etc.

So you really want to deal with that when you have a bad back? I guess a 2 week wait when you are in agony, but suffering from a non life threatening ailment is just peachy.

 

[asterism]

A company's ability to make profit enables it to make the innovations to provide more care to more people, bub.

Nice bumper stick chick, but present some actual examples.

Just one or two.

I'm tired of these "we're for freedom!" answers you far RW types like to spew.

Salem Oncology (a private hospital) vs. Moffitt Cancer Center (a government non-profit)

1. Moffitt has a strict protocol on the number of nurses for each shift. They review the needs quarterly. If not enough nurses are working to fill the need they draw from other hospitals at about twice the normal hourly rate (according to a regular night nurse who normally worked across the street at University Community. Salem schedules nurses based on admissions with an existing arrangement with a full-time nurse on call agency at a rate of about 1.3 times the normal hourly rate (according to the lead nurse when I was looking for alternatives in 2009). When Moffitt's schedule has a surplus of nurses they all still work the schedule. And since the full time nursing budget is managed by a different department than the temporary nursing budget, there is no incentive to be efficient in balancing the two. Government baseline budgets are "use it or lose it." In Moffitt's case, that meant that during normal working hours Monday through Friday there were more than enough nurses while the middle of Saturday night was usually quite understaffed if people unexpectedly got sicker on the weekend (a strange phenomenon I noticed). When Salem's schedule has a surplus they don't use the on-call nurses.

2. Moffitt's payment model starts with insurance. There is no option to simply pay cash even if a patient knows the treatment is not covered by insurance. Reams of paperwork, literally dozens of administrators and clerks, and hundreds of man-hours are spent on each and every long term hospitalization. Salem does not accept any third party payments. If insurance covers a treatment, the patient is reimbursed by their insurance company.

3. Treatment options, tests, and care are rigid and almost always (in my family's case) directed by need and then whether the insurance will cover it at Moffitt. Every time an MRI is requested, approval must be sought and granted. Every change in care (like going to private CCU vs. shared CCU due to the various machines not fitting in a shared room), every change in medication (Morphine to Dilaudid), and every variation in respirator (active vs. passive for example) must be first approved by insurance. Salem's same options are determined by the needs of the patient and then pre-assessed financial ability to pay. It doesn't cost anything to switch a respirator and no clerk needs to be involved when the doctor switches pain medication.

Treatment at Salem is therefore much less expensive due to the lack of wasteful administrative overhead and due to efficient scheduling. Moffitt has more clerks and administrators than doctors, nurses, and orderlies combined. The money not spent on bureaucracy is profit.

 

[uscitizen]

Why did they drop you? What was the reason, unless you are just being snarky and made this up.

Also, with government health care, they can just ignore you instead of dropping you. See the DMV on how effective government agencies can be at ignoring thier customer base.

I didn't realize that people got IGNORED by the good folks at the DMV.

I didn't get ignore when I went on Friday.

And I don't expect to get ignored when I go there in a few hours.

Where do you people come up with this swill?

I guess you got a good DMV. Try one in NYC one time. Enjoy the 3 hour wait to get your registration renewed. And by ignoring thier customer base I mean that as a customer at the DMV you basically have NO ability to change how they do things. It's thier way or the highway. Right now if you wanted to switch medical insurance providers, you could. Once you get single payer, that goes bye bye. Welcome to the Department of Medical Serivces, DMS.

Ohh NYC? That wexplains a lot, there is not much good about NYC.

 

[MarcATL]

I guess you got a good DMV. Try one in NYC one time. Enjoy the 3 hour wait to get your registration renewed. And by ignoring thier customer base I mean that as a customer at the DMV you basically have NO ability to change how they do things. It's thier way or the highway. Right now if you wanted to switch medical insurance providers, you could. Once you get single payer, that goes bye bye. Welcome to the Department of Medical Serivces, DMS.

I used to live in NYC and have used the DMV there, its better than here in ATL. As bad as it is. You can't get out of the lines and long wait in most public services. What you can do is plan for them, things like waking up earlier, making appointments when you can, etc.

So you really want to deal with that when you have a bad back? I guess a 2 week wait when you are in agony, but suffering from a non life threatening ailment is just peachy.

Don't be so ridiculous.

If your back gave out on your right this minute...how will you deal with it?

I bet you'll have to shell out some good money to get it taken care of...right now.

Right?

 

[Seawytch]

Link to ANY post that someone has said ALL corporations should become non-profits?

Alrighty then.

Which corporations deserve profits and which don't?

They all should be able to profit.....except for health insurance companies, not how they are currently structured. I am not for the profiting off of the denial of health care to people.

There are some things that simply should not be "for profit". The defense of our nation, education and health care. (Energy too, but that's another discussion for another board) Each and every American should have the same basic health care coverage. If you want more than the basic, then insurance companies can exist that provide additional, supplemental coverage. (kind of like hiring your own private security).

Medical bankruptcy accounts for over 60% of all bankruptcy cases and over 70% of them had insurance at the time of their illness or injury.

 

[MarcATL]

There are some things that simply should not be "for profit". The defense of our nation, education and health care. (Energy too, but that's another discussion for another board) Each and every American should have the same basic health care coverage. If you want more than the basic, then insurance companies can exist that provide additional, supplemental coverage. (kind of like hiring your own private security).

Medical bankruptcy accounts for over 60% of all bankruptcy cases and over 70% of them had insurance at the time of their illness or injury.

Republicans and the other Far RW reactionaries all live in an ideological fairy tale land of Jobs for everyone, War spending through the roof, Business can do no wrong, affordable top notch health care and Corporations that are infallible and a government that's the Devil incarnate....until reality smacks one of them in the face with a drastic life situation.

 

[Jarhead]

There are some things that simply should not be "for profit". The defense of our nation, education and health care. (Energy too, but that's another discussion for another board) Each and every American should have the same basic health care coverage. If you want more than the basic, then insurance companies can exist that provide additional, supplemental coverage. (kind of like hiring your own private security).

Medical bankruptcy accounts for over 60% of all bankruptcy cases and over 70% of them had insurance at the time of their illness or injury.

Republicans and the other Far RW reactionaries all live in an ideological fairy tale land of Jobs for everyone, War spending through the roof, Business can do no wrong, affordable top notch health care and Corporations that are infallible and a government that's the Devil incarnate....until reality smacks one of them in the face with a drastic life situation.

The reality that usually strikes us in the face is more often than not, the result of a bad personal decision.....and we take full responsibility for the consequences of the bad decision.

We may have opted to pay less annually for a health care policy so we can spend more on personal entertainment...and then a health crisis arises, and we are stuck with a $5000 deductible. We knew that may happen, but we opted to take the chance. We accept responsibility.

Like Peepers siad yesterday. As she put it "she paid her dues" and thereofre doesnt feel she has to deal with having a roommate...so she pays 7K more a year for rent. But then she turns around and complains that she cannot afford a private healthcare policy and is thankful that she has a company policy....But if she were to hit a tough medical situation, she will complain that she couldnt afford a better policy becuase they are too expensive.....but truth is, she COULD have afforded one....she opted to "live without a roommate" and then blame the insurance companies.

You, Marcatl, and Peeprs just cannot get a grasp of personal responsibility.

 

[martybegan]

I used to live in NYC and have used the DMV there, its better than here in ATL. As bad as it is. You can't get out of the lines and long wait in most public services. What you can do is plan for them, things like waking up earlier, making appointments when you can, etc.

So you really want to deal with that when you have a bad back? I guess a 2 week wait when you are in agony, but suffering from a non life threatening ailment is just peachy.

Don't be so ridiculous.

If your back gave out on your right this minute...how will you deal with it?

I bet you'll have to shell out some good money to get it taken care of...right now.

Right?

Only because I haven't reached my $500 deductible yet, and $500 isnt much money to be able to walk without pain. At least now I know I can call my doctor and go and see him today, or at least one of his associates. Lets see how I would fare under a single payer system. I would guess I would be waiting for a while, as a bad back, while painful, is not life threatening.

 

[asterism]

There are some things that simply should not be "for profit". The defense of our nation, education and health care. (Energy too, but that's another discussion for another board) Each and every American should have the same basic health care coverage. If you want more than the basic, then insurance companies can exist that provide additional, supplemental coverage. (kind of like hiring your own private security).

Medical bankruptcy accounts for over 60% of all bankruptcy cases and over 70% of them had insurance at the time of their illness or injury.

Republicans and the other Far RW reactionaries all live in an ideological fairy tale land of Jobs for everyone, War spending through the roof, Business can do no wrong, affordable top notch health care and Corporations that are infallible and a government that's the Devil incarnate....until reality smacks one of them in the face with a drastic life situation.

I've experienced private self-funded healthcare, insurance funded healthcare, and government healthcare. Government was worst, insurance funded was mediocre, and self-funded was best. Obviously financial resources are limited so there is a balance of service and price. Government healthcare has never been better at either.

 

[asterism]

Alrighty then.

Which corporations deserve profits and which don't?

They all should be able to profit.....except for health insurance companies, not how they are currently structured. I am not for the profiting off of the denial of health care to people.

There are some things that simply should not be "for profit". The defense of our nation, education and health care. (Energy too, but that's another discussion for another board) Each and every American should have the same basic health care coverage. If you want more than the basic, then insurance companies can exist that provide additional, supplemental coverage. (kind of like hiring your own private security).

Medical bankruptcy accounts for over 60% of all bankruptcy cases and over 70% of them had insurance at the time of their illness or injury.

I have never seen a situation where someone filed for bankruptcy due to medical costs but were otherwise managing their money well. Every single case I've seen shows expensive (for them) car payments, houses they could not afford, and little to no savings when a major life threatening illness strikes. Failure to plan for medical costs is the problem, not the "healthcare system."

Usually, personal bankruptcy is filed to discharge or restructure some debts while saving assets. In other situations I've found that the person in question was unaware of the limitations in their insurance policies. Again, a failure to plan.

 

[MarcATL]

So it will magically become better when we replace the corporate burecrat with some government burecrat? At least with a company you can take your business elsewhere. Try that with a single government entitiy.

You obviously don't understand the concept of "option". And most people do NOT have a choice of insurance. They either buy what is offered from their workplace (if offered) or they go without. The average person cannot afford stand-alone private health insurance, especially on declining salaries and the cost of living rising the way it is. I know I couldn't afford it on my own.

Will say it again.....cause you refuse to admit it...

Based on the numbers you have thrown out there....you most certainly CAN afford it....you just simply opt to spend your money elsewhere

Insurance for single coverage can be bought for 3500 a year.....that is tax deductable.....so it is equivalent to the spending power of about 2500 a year...or 200 a month...about 50 a week....about 7 bucks a day.

Now...seeing as health insurance is no longer insurance....and it is not....it USED to be insurance....now it is used to pay for any medical cost....even your semi annual visit....the average 600 bucks a year that you should be paying on your own to your doctor for regular check ups should be deducted from that number (we will say 400 as that, too, was tax deductable)...the extra cost in spendable dollars to you is 2100 per year....or about 40 a week....or a little over 5 bucks a day.....

Yep....5 bucks a day so you can be assured to have any catastrophic medical situation not destroy you financially...

Bet you spend more than that for coffee each day....yet you complain about it being too expensive for your health?

LOL....talking points.....just analyze it and you will see how silly you sound.

So you really want to deal with that when you have a bad back? I guess a 2 week wait when you are in agony, but suffering from a non life threatening ailment is just peachy.

Don't be so ridiculous.

If your back gave out on your right this minute...how will you deal with it?

I bet you'll have to shell out some good money to get it taken care of...right now.

Right?

Only because I haven't reached my $500 deductible yet, and $500 isnt much money to be able to walk without pain. At least now I know I can call my doctor and go and see him today, or at least one of his associates. Lets see how I would fare under a single payer system. I would guess I would be waiting for a while, as a bad back, while painful, is not life threatening.

Pure speculation.

The fact of the matter is, you'd have to shell out now. No different under the proposed program.

Oh...and BTW, just got in from going to the DMV. The last time you saw my post I was at home, I left later than I planned, and now at my office.

Not a long time right? And I went to the wrong office in ATL first. Then drove to the right one. They had one for tags and one for renewals, I went to the tags one and I needed renewal.

The DMV wasn't that bad. The government works just fine, and would run much better with better financing.

 

[MarcATL]

I have never seen a situation where someone filed for bankruptcy due to medical costs but were otherwise managing their money well. Every single case I've seen shows expensive (for them) car payments, houses they could not afford, and little to no savings when a major life threatening illness strikes. Failure to plan for medical costs is the problem, not the "healthcare system."

Usually, personal bankruptcy is filed to discharge or restructure some debts while saving assets. In other situations I've found that the person in question was unaware of the limitations in their insurance policies. Again, a failure to plan.

Do you realize that the average Joe Schmoe lives check to check? Barely paying all their bills if that? With the demise of wages one is lucky these days to be able to pay all their bills and have enough money for a French fries.

 

[boedicca]

Medical bankruptcy accounts for over 60% of all bankruptcy cases and over 70% of them had insurance at the time of their illness or injury.

This is a bogus meme. In a bankruptcy proceeding, all debts and outstanding bills are thrown in. The 60% included anyone who owes a doctor a $20 co-pay, which is not the cause of bankruptcy.

The biggest cause of bankruptcy is people spending beyond their means.

This paper utilizes the population of personal bankruptcy filings in the state of Delaware during 2003 and finds that household expenditures on durable consumptions, such as houses and automobiles, contribute significantly to personal bankruptcy. Adverse medical conditions also lead to personal bankruptcy filings, but other adverse events such as divorce and unemployment have marginal effects. Over-consumption makes households financially over-stretched and more susceptible to adverse events, which reconcile the strategic filing and adverse event explanations.

According to Zhu, having a serious medical condition makes you 50% more likely to file for bankruptcy, but not because of medical bills; medical bills are only a very small percentage of the overall debt of bankrupts, and are not significantly correlated with higher credit card debt, which one would expect if people were keeping down their medical bills by charging them to Visa. Presumably it's the income effect of disability or caretaking responsibilities.

Job loss may precipitate bankruptcy, but bankrupts don't report being laid off at a significantly higher rate than the control group. The difference is, the control group had savings to cover its financial emergency.


What causes personal bankruptcy? - Megan McArdle - Business - The Atlantic

 

[martybegan]

You obviously don't understand the concept of "option". And most people do NOT have a choice of insurance. They either buy what is offered from their workplace (if offered) or they go without. The average person cannot afford stand-alone private health insurance, especially on declining salaries and the cost of living rising the way it is. I know I couldn't afford it on my own.

Will say it again.....cause you refuse to admit it...

Based on the numbers you have thrown out there....you most certainly CAN afford it....you just simply opt to spend your money elsewhere

Insurance for single coverage can be bought for 3500 a year.....that is tax deductable.....so it is equivalent to the spending power of about 2500 a year...or 200 a month...about 50 a week....about 7 bucks a day.

Now...seeing as health insurance is no longer insurance....and it is not....it USED to be insurance....now it is used to pay for any medical cost....even your semi annual visit....the average 600 bucks a year that you should be paying on your own to your doctor for regular check ups should be deducted from that number (we will say 400 as that, too, was tax deductable)...the extra cost in spendable dollars to you is 2100 per year....or about 40 a week....or a little over 5 bucks a day.....

Yep....5 bucks a day so you can be assured to have any catastrophic medical situation not destroy you financially...

Bet you spend more than that for coffee each day....yet you complain about it being too expensive for your health?

LOL....talking points.....just analyze it and you will see how silly you sound.

Don't be so ridiculous.

If your back gave out on your right this minute...how will you deal with it?

I bet you'll have to shell out some good money to get it taken care of...right now.

Right?

Only because I haven't reached my $500 deductible yet, and $500 isnt much money to be able to walk without pain. At least now I know I can call my doctor and go and see him today, or at least one of his associates. Lets see how I would fare under a single payer system. I would guess I would be waiting for a while, as a bad back, while painful, is not life threatening.

Pure speculation.

The fact of the matter is, you'd have to shell out now. No different under the proposed program.

Oh...and BTW, just got in from going to the DMV. The last time you saw my post I was at home, I left later than I planned, and now at my office.

Not a long time right? And I went to the wrong office in ATL first. Then drove to the right one. They had one for tags and one for renewals, I went to the tags one and I needed renewal.

The DMV wasn't that bad. The government works just fine, and would run much better with better financing.

Its also pure speculation that a single payer or public option system would cure all of our health care ills, but its speculation you like, so in you mind it makes it valid.

The fact you are defending the DMV is just funny. I guess you like paying for a service that you have absolutely no feedback to or ability to influence, and that you have to modify your own schedule to meet.

Goverment should serve US, we shouldnt have to accomodate IT.

 

[kaz]

Not if they don't want to. Hence....option. Seriously?

So your thinking is politicians are going to run a stand alone entity that competes on it's own without government funding against private companies and taxpayers aren't going to end up footing the bill for the ridiculous promises it'll make it's customers? Why am I skeptical? Do the names Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae mean anything to you?

I suppose you want to assert that Freddy and Fannie were govt. run and not privately held companies?

On September 7, 2008, Federal Housing Finance Agency (FHFA) Director James B. Lockhart III announced pursuant to the financial analysis, assessments and statutory authority of the FHFA, he had placed Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac under the conservatorship of the FHFA. FHFA has stated that there are no plans to liquidate the company.[33][34] The announcement followed reports two days earlier that the federal government was planning to take over Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and had met with their CEOs on short notice.[50][51][52] Under plan announced September 7, 2008, the federal government, via the Federal Housing Finance Agency, placed the two firms into conservatorship, dismissed the firms' chief executive officers and boards of directors, and caused the issuance to the Treasury new senior preferred stock and common stock warrants amounting to 79.9% of each GSE.



Furthermore it was the capiltalist GREED that did them in.

On December 18, 2006, U.S. regulators filed 101 civil charges against chief executive Franklin Raines; chief financial officer J. Timothy Howard; and the former controller Leanne G. Spencer. The three are accused of manipulating Fannie Mae earnings to maximize their bonuses. The lawsuit sought to recoup more than $115 million in bonus payments, collectively accrued by the trio from 1998–2004, and about $100 million in penalties for their involvement in the accounting scandal.

So government created Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and when they crashed you use them as an example of the failure of capitalism. All roads lead to Rome for liberals, where Rome is the inherent truth of liberalism. Even when socialism fails, it's proof of the need for socialism. You just made a great case against government creating a health care insurer to compete against private insurers. Think about it...

 

[kaz]

I have never seen a situation where someone filed for bankruptcy due to medical costs but were otherwise managing their money well. Every single case I've seen shows expensive (for them) car payments, houses they could not afford, and little to no savings when a major life threatening illness strikes. Failure to plan for medical costs is the problem, not the "healthcare system."

Usually, personal bankruptcy is filed to discharge or restructure some debts while saving assets. In other situations I've found that the person in question was unaware of the limitations in their insurance policies. Again, a failure to plan.

Do you realize that the average Joe Schmoe lives check to check? Barely paying all their bills if that? With the demise of wages one is lucky these days to be able to pay all their bills and have enough money for a French fries.

Yes, it's luck if you can pay your bills and that people live paycheck to paycheck shows they didn't fail to plan.

Being poor is not an income issue, it's a lifestyle where you live paycheck to paycheck and don't save or invest. Anyone in this country other then people with mental issues can live below their means, work hard and make it. If they don't that's their choice, but don't criticize me for it.

 

[Jarhead]

I have never seen a situation where someone filed for bankruptcy due to medical costs but were otherwise managing their money well. Every single case I've seen shows expensive (for them) car payments, houses they could not afford, and little to no savings when a major life threatening illness strikes. Failure to plan for medical costs is the problem, not the "healthcare system."

Usually, personal bankruptcy is filed to discharge or restructure some debts while saving assets. In other situations I've found that the person in question was unaware of the limitations in their insurance policies. Again, a failure to plan.

Do you realize that the average Joe Schmoe lives check to check? Barely paying all their bills if that? With the demise of wages one is lucky these days to be able to pay all their bills and have enough money for a French fries.

Interesting that in a country where the average shmoe lives paycheck to paycheck we have full sports arenas at 75 a tricket to just about every game of everty sport...we have movies grossing hundred million a weekend, we have a cell phone in nearly every pocket...we have
iPads back ordered, laptops everywhere, starbucks making big time profits....we have those "struggling people" attending ralleys at the cost of a workday....we have game boys and x boxes....kids over eating...McDonalds needing toi hire 50K people to meet the demand...

Average Joe living paycheck to paycheck...talking point....he lives paycheck to paycheck becuase he likes to enjoy as much as his paycheck allows him.

 

[ClosedCaption]

A company's ability to make profit enables it to make the innovations to provide more care to more people, bub.

Tell us about some of the innovations that your health insurance company has come up with.