Are you Pro-Health Care But Anti-HR 3200/Government Run Care? Sound off

Co-ops were how insurance started in the first place. Ancient civilizations had insurance co-ops for lots of different things. It is the purest form of socialism there is, pooling assets for potential risks. Many of the small mutual companies started out as co-ops. That's why they have mutual in their names. A small vignette of this type of socialism is like what the Amish do when a barn burns down, they all pitch in and rebuild it. This sort of micro-system probably wouldn't work for most of the country though. The Amish deal in lumber and nails and skilled labor, so rate of exchange is not part of the picture. They are stationary.

Larger more modern versions of co-ops would include electricity generation and water & sewer systems. Again, these set ups are geographically stationary. Most hospitals were set up in this way as well, by charitable or civic organizations, much the same as fire departments. Again, stationary. The older mutual insurance companies, even some still in operation, are still stationary; ie., they operate within a state or part of a state only. These are finite examples of co-ops. The regular sense of the word that co-op might conjure is a grain co-op or food co-op, all stationary again, serving a finite area with finite assets to be pooled together for a certain benefit of the group participating. It's a socialistic construct. None of these enterprises mentioned are in place for profit, simply maintenance of their structure and the more members they can acquire the safer and more efficiently they can continue to operate. They can be employed through voluntary participation or through local taxation as in the case of water & sewer and the electricity generation co-ops.

Then comes for-profit insurance which is not concerned with the stationary infrastructure it seeks to operate within. It is not stationary, deals only in currency and seeks to gather assets through premiums and then reinvest the proceeds to grow those assets, ostensibly to be able to make good on any future claims. It's basically an investment scheme: Identify a pool of money that can be harvested and then reinvest it and take a percentage off the top. This is not unlike what investment bankers do, except they don't have risks/claims to deal with. So the larger and more spread out the pool becomes, the better the for-profit insurer is going to make out. So it can take its money and go to other areas and reinvest and start all over again and grow another pool. Naturally, operations that are most palatable would include areas with the best conditions and the lowest risks. At some point the pool has expanded so the insurer can non-renew to protect his asset pile so he can offer it to persons with less risk.

Meanwhile, the insurer should be carefully and wisely reinvesting his premium income so it can keep expanding and take his profits and honor his obligations. He should safely care to collateralize his principle and grow it in stable instruments or tangible assets.

That's the bland and oversimplified way of looking at it. The reality is not that boring. Sometimes the insurer made bad investments, sometimes he suffered catastrophic losses. But not to fear, through the wonderful vehicle of international currency he is re-insured to spread his risk. That's right, the insurer took out a policy so that should he be hit with a big payout situation, he has insured himself with another and different insurer, and in turn the re-insurer has insured himself and on and on like an old Breck commercial. So pretty soon you have an international scheme set up whereby the risk is spread all over the globe. [Europe mainly, the Dutch especially, they insured the Mayflower and have been quietly and surely gobbling tangible assets and real estate ever since].

So all of that is fine and good and most investments continue to grow and losses are handled and claims are paid and the markets are full of capital and trading shares goes on. Except we now know it wasn't. The investment part of the scheme became so top heavy, the risk side was sought to be shaved to a cat's whisker. Insurers pulled out of areas where they promised insurance and when huge risks were going to cut into their money pile, they just left [see: Texas and Florida and NO]. That's right. They left. Sorry we are just going out of business in this particular state and we'll keep a presence in Maine and Idaho but screw you. So how does this affect health insurance you ask? All insurance is the same, it's all interrelated. Don't be fooled. All the money is woven together regardless of the type of risk covered and reinsured and then reinsured until there is a veritable daisy chain binding the entire system. Insurers have both ends of the deal, they have doctors pay malpractice premiums and insureds pay health insurance premiums. They have borrowers take out policies to protect the loan for mortgage companies, and to insure against the loss of their house, they insure both sides, all sides, sides that are dead as in the case with title attorneys that provide insurance for both the borrower AND lender in case some Indian chief didn't sign a deed 100 years ago, something so obscure the risk is almost nil, but premiums are mandated by the mortgage companies. Which is funny because the mortgage company's pool from which they were able to lend the money was probably provided by an insurer looking to grow a particular block of premiums. And of course when he gets the mortgages sold on that block of money he will sell the entire block or batch of blocks on the secondary market......

So you see where I'm going with this, don't you? The typical insurer has moved away from mostly tangible assets to trading in currency and shuffling paper instruments around all over the place and taking the fast profits off the top........which works if the tangible assets down the line that were traded upon maintain their value and/or increase, or the monthly income continues to come in. It works for the insurer because he has already taken his money and skedaddled.......but it doesn't. Because we saw what happened with the bogus instruments last fall, didn't we? Mortgages and secondary markets weren't thrilling and lucrative enough and there are soooo many regulations in place to protect the collateralization of all these instruments down the line and well that was not good enough or fast enough and they wanted more and more money........so being the gambling addicts and money grubbers they were, risks were shaved, premiums were raised and they embarked into Credit Default Swaps. Default? Wassat? Default is to FAIL. CDS are an unregulated type of insurance based on betting whether or not certain investments would succeed or not. So you say, ok....different type of insurance, obscure, but these Wall Street types know all about this sort of thing and life is good and I got mine and whatever. BUT it wasn't regulated AT ALL. And by the time it started to alarm anyone, [Royal Bank of Scotland was the only entity that foresaw the collapse] the CDS were interlaced all over the world to the tune of about $60T, yes that's TRILLION, to some estimates of over $1Q, that's QUADRILLION, new word, get used to it or use your exponents. That's pretty much the theoretical equivalent of the majority of the entire planet's worth.

This happened. You saw it. It was on the news, and commentators said things like, "well I don't understand it exactly, so I can't explain it to you and some of the most brilliant guys on the planet don't get it and the few rare individuals that do, say you wouldn't understand it, it's too complicated...............yada, yada, lie, lie, yada". Quantum physics is complicated. Vascular surgery is complicated. The CDS weren't that complicated, you just were deprived of knowing what was going on when declarations of AIG being too big to fail surfaced along with Goldman Sachs having to have their asses pulled out of the fire, amidst Madoff making off with a paltry billion, Big 3 automakers going down, Merrill Lynch absorbed and saved......news glut, misdirection, WIZARD OF OZ!!!

And so it goes. We are down to about 6 major players, nation wide, that deal in health insurance and while that seems like it could be better, I've already shown that it is an anti-trust, no win situation that implies competition, but in reality there is none. It's a farce. When you have to pursue a claim and two insurance comapnies are involved and subrogation [one insurance company assuming the risk] kicks in, they aren't looking out for you, they're for the industry because they probably are insuring each other back and forth and of course the lawyers that specialize is in this are not going to push the envelope because they are all colleagues. Now I know not all lawyers just play utility, but then when one does go out and really fight, like John Edwards, he is blasphemed and the false flag of tort reform!!!! is waved, but it's crap. The fact is, the majority of law is concerned with insurance, it clogs our courts, it clogs our laws and slows down the entire legal system. The insurance industry uses the legal system to delay, delay, delay. You either run out of money, lose hope or die. Then people say: " Let insurance be sold over state lines!!!" Uh huh, sure, have you ever cracked a Reporter [Regional books with citations from appeals from higher courts that contain precedents]? More than half of the cases are about insurance or some insurable interest. You can be sure any and all insurance companies are up to speed on all the laws, in all the states and have formed agreements to attack or lay off of a particular market and know exactly how to play ball, and know the actuarial stats for any given risk pool. It's what they do. Why should they compete when they control everything? They control our financial system and our legal system and in so doing, they control our government.

Verbosity is the key to a great post!


So aside from the verbosity, did you read it? I usually try to be brief, and for the premise put forth, it is about as short as I could make it.

And there is much more to add.
 
Wouldn't you assume by my post I was questioning such? Helllll000!

Are you always this way with people trying to have a civil conversation, or do I just rub you the wrong way? This isn't the first time you've been a bitch to me for no reason I could see, and I'll bet you won't provide any explanation this time either. I came here to discuss issues, not to take crap from people like you. Good day.

And you still failed to provide an example of a medical co-op (I think that's what Annie was asking for). However, you were very successful at calling Annie a bitch (I don't think that's what she was asking for). Your idea of civil conversations seems a bit foreign to me when you call somebody a bitch.

Thanks, no surprise that you understood the posts, yet I thank you.
 
There are no examples of a medical co-op, MM. That's why they would have to be established. I thought anybody following the health care debate would know that and didn't appreciate the obvious snark in her answer. It was bitchy. If she honestly did not know that and though tI was holding out on her, then I owe her an apology.

And I don't know what Annie was thinking because I'm not in her mind, but following the conversation, it seemed that you indicated medical co-ops existed and when asked to provide information about it, you only provided a wiki link to the definition of a co-op. I thought you were the one being snarky. Then you went and called her a bitch, which is beyond snarky.
You owe her an apology in my opinion.

No, if she knew what I was saying and did the whole "Helllllooooo" thing anyway the shoe fits. If it was a misunderstanding, I called her names for no reason and I apologize. I'll admit to having a chip on my shoulder from a driveby insult she threw out at me on another thread yesterday, but that's no excuse. Now let's let the thread go back on topic.

Your inability to read is the problem. At the same time I assume you didn't mean to misunderstand, the reason I'd not neg rep. I think you mean well, as do I.
 
And you still failed to provide an example of a medical co-op (I think that's what Annie was asking for

I think I read post in here by a guy in Colorado that mentioned he was in a co-op. Since some have been careful to point out I am a noob I didn't associate an ID with the post, just that I remember that his location was CO. At any rate that might assist in a search on google or on this board or jog your familiarity with established posters.

As I stated in my "verbose" prior post, co-ops are not generally portable for the sake of the definition when used for insurance.
 
And I don't know what Annie was thinking because I'm not in her mind, but following the conversation, it seemed that you indicated medical co-ops existed and when asked to provide information about it, you only provided a wiki link to the definition of a co-op. I thought you were the one being snarky. Then you went and called her a bitch, which is beyond snarky.
You owe her an apology in my opinion.

No, if she knew what I was saying and did the whole "Helllllooooo" thing anyway the shoe fits. If it was a misunderstanding, I called her names for no reason and I apologize. I'll admit to having a chip on my shoulder from a driveby insult she threw out at me on another thread yesterday, but that's no excuse. Now let's let the thread go back on topic.

Your inability to read is the problem. At the same time I assume you didn't mean to misunderstand, the reason I'd not neg rep. I think you mean well, as do I.


Sounds like we both misunderstood each other then. My apologies. I do mean well, but where I came from if you let somebody walk on you once you're a doormat forever. I suppose some habits are hard to break.
 
And you still failed to provide an example of a medical co-op (I think that's what Annie was asking for

I think I read post in here by a guy in Colorado that mentioned he was in a co-op. Since some have been careful to point out I am a noob I didn't associate an ID with the post, just that I remember that his location was CO. At any rate that might assist in a search on google or on this board or jog your familiarity with established posters.

As I stated in my "verbose" prior post, co-ops are not generally portable for the sake of the definition when used for insurance.

I haven't found anything on established co-ops out there, and in my state now and my previous state they aren't allowed. Apaprently from what you posted they must be local entities. If they do exist, why aren't we hearing more about them? Becasue they're local?
 
No, if she knew what I was saying and did the whole "Helllllooooo" thing anyway the shoe fits. If it was a misunderstanding, I called her names for no reason and I apologize. I'll admit to having a chip on my shoulder from a driveby insult she threw out at me on another thread yesterday, but that's no excuse. Now let's let the thread go back on topic.

Your inability to read is the problem. At the same time I assume you didn't mean to misunderstand, the reason I'd not neg rep. I think you mean well, as do I.


Sounds like we both misunderstood each other then. My apologies. I do mean well, but where I came from if you let somebody walk on you once you're a doormat forever. I suppose some habits are hard to break.
LOL, ditto. Damn, I've got to rep you. ;)
 
And you still failed to provide an example of a medical co-op (I think that's what Annie was asking for

I think I read post in here by a guy in Colorado that mentioned he was in a co-op. Since some have been careful to point out I am a noob I didn't associate an ID with the post, just that I remember that his location was CO. At any rate that might assist in a search on google or on this board or jog your familiarity with established posters.

As I stated in my "verbose" prior post, co-ops are not generally portable for the sake of the definition when used for insurance.

I haven't found anything on established co-ops out there, and in my state now and my previous state they aren't allowed. Apaprently from what you posted they must be local entities. If they do exist, why aren't we hearing more about them? Becasue they're local?

As a matter of practicality, they are a local type of set up. I have seen no model outlined that indicates otherwise. I have seen some congressmen make noises but they didn't offer anything to follow up on.
 
Your inability to read is the problem. At the same time I assume you didn't mean to misunderstand, the reason I'd not neg rep. I think you mean well, as do I.


Sounds like we both misunderstood each other then. My apologies. I do mean well, but where I came from if you let somebody walk on you once you're a doormat forever. I suppose some habits are hard to break.
LOL, ditto. Damn, I've got to rep you. ;)

Nah, just not neg repping me was good enough. Thanks, though. Glad we sorted it out!
 
Co-ops were how insurance started in the first place. Ancient civilizations had insurance co-ops for lots of different things. It is the purest form of socialism there is, pooling assets for potential risks. Many of the small mutual companies started out as co-ops. That's why they have mutual in their names. A small vignette of this type of socialism is like what the Amish do when a barn burns down, they all pitch in and rebuild it. This sort of micro-system probably wouldn't work for most of the country though. The Amish deal in lumber and nails and skilled labor, so rate of exchange is not part of the picture. They are stationary.

Larger more modern versions of co-ops would include electricity generation and water & sewer systems. Again, these set ups are geographically stationary. Most hospitals were set up in this way as well, by charitable or civic organizations, much the same as fire departments. Again, stationary. The older mutual insurance companies, even some still in operation, are still stationary; ie., they operate within a state or part of a state only. These are finite examples of co-ops. The regular sense of the word that co-op might conjure is a grain co-op or food co-op, all stationary again, serving a finite area with finite assets to be pooled together for a certain benefit of the group participating. It's a socialistic construct. None of these enterprises mentioned are in place for profit, simply maintenance of their structure and the more members they can acquire the safer and more efficiently they can continue to operate. They can be employed through voluntary participation or through local taxation as in the case of water & sewer and the electricity generation co-ops.

Then comes for-profit insurance which is not concerned with the stationary infrastructure it seeks to operate within. It is not stationary, deals only in currency and seeks to gather assets through premiums and then reinvest the proceeds to grow those assets, ostensibly to be able to make good on any future claims. It's basically an investment scheme: Identify a pool of money that can be harvested and then reinvest it and take a percentage off the top. This is not unlike what investment bankers do, except they don't have risks/claims to deal with. So the larger and more spread out the pool becomes, the better the for-profit insurer is going to make out. So it can take its money and go to other areas and reinvest and start all over again and grow another pool. Naturally, operations that are most palatable would include areas with the best conditions and the lowest risks. At some point the pool has expanded so the insurer can non-renew to protect his asset pile so he can offer it to persons with less risk.

Meanwhile, the insurer should be carefully and wisely reinvesting his premium income so it can keep expanding and take his profits and honor his obligations. He should safely care to collateralize his principle and grow it in stable instruments or tangible assets.

That's the bland and oversimplified way of looking at it. The reality is not that boring. Sometimes the insurer made bad investments, sometimes he suffered catastrophic losses. But not to fear, through the wonderful vehicle of international currency he is re-insured to spread his risk. That's right, the insurer took out a policy so that should he be hit with a big payout situation, he has insured himself with another and different insurer, and in turn the re-insurer has insured himself and on and on like an old Breck commercial. So pretty soon you have an international scheme set up whereby the risk is spread all over the globe. [Europe mainly, the Dutch especially, they insured the Mayflower and have been quietly and surely gobbling tangible assets and real estate ever since].

So all of that is fine and good and most investments continue to grow and losses are handled and claims are paid and the markets are full of capital and trading shares goes on. Except we now know it wasn't. The investment part of the scheme became so top heavy, the risk side was sought to be shaved to a cat's whisker. Insurers pulled out of areas where they promised insurance and when huge risks were going to cut into their money pile, they just left [see: Texas and Florida and NO]. That's right. They left. Sorry we are just going out of business in this particular state and we'll keep a presence in Maine and Idaho but screw you. So how does this affect health insurance you ask? All insurance is the same, it's all interrelated. Don't be fooled. All the money is woven together regardless of the type of risk covered and reinsured and then reinsured until there is a veritable daisy chain binding the entire system. Insurers have both ends of the deal, they have doctors pay malpractice premiums and insureds pay health insurance premiums. They have borrowers take out policies to protect the loan for mortgage companies, and to insure against the loss of their house, they insure both sides, all sides, sides that are dead as in the case with title attorneys that provide insurance for both the borrower AND lender in case some Indian chief didn't sign a deed 100 years ago, something so obscure the risk is almost nil, but premiums are mandated by the mortgage companies. Which is funny because the mortgage company's pool from which they were able to lend the money was probably provided by an insurer looking to grow a particular block of premiums. And of course when he gets the mortgages sold on that block of money he will sell the entire block or batch of blocks on the secondary market......

So you see where I'm going with this, don't you? The typical insurer has moved away from mostly tangible assets to trading in currency and shuffling paper instruments around all over the place and taking the fast profits off the top........which works if the tangible assets down the line that were traded upon maintain their value and/or increase, or the monthly income continues to come in. It works for the insurer because he has already taken his money and skedaddled.......but it doesn't. Because we saw what happened with the bogus instruments last fall, didn't we? Mortgages and secondary markets weren't thrilling and lucrative enough and there are soooo many regulations in place to protect the collateralization of all these instruments down the line and well that was not good enough or fast enough and they wanted more and more money........so being the gambling addicts and money grubbers they were, risks were shaved, premiums were raised and they embarked into Credit Default Swaps. Default? Wassat? Default is to FAIL. CDS are an unregulated type of insurance based on betting whether or not certain investments would succeed or not. So you say, ok....different type of insurance, obscure, but these Wall Street types know all about this sort of thing and life is good and I got mine and whatever. BUT it wasn't regulated AT ALL. And by the time it started to alarm anyone, [Royal Bank of Scotland was the only entity that foresaw the collapse] the CDS were interlaced all over the world to the tune of about $60T, yes that's TRILLION, to some estimates of over $1Q, that's QUADRILLION, new word, get used to it or use your exponents. That's pretty much the theoretical equivalent of the majority of the entire planet's worth.

This happened. You saw it. It was on the news, and commentators said things like, "well I don't understand it exactly, so I can't explain it to you and some of the most brilliant guys on the planet don't get it and the few rare individuals that do, say you wouldn't understand it, it's too complicated...............yada, yada, lie, lie, yada". Quantum physics is complicated. Vascular surgery is complicated. The CDS weren't that complicated, you just were deprived of knowing what was going on when declarations of AIG being too big to fail surfaced along with Goldman Sachs having to have their asses pulled out of the fire, amidst Madoff making off with a paltry billion, Big 3 automakers going down, Merrill Lynch absorbed and saved......news glut, misdirection, WIZARD OF OZ!!!

And so it goes. We are down to about 6 major players, nation wide, that deal in health insurance and while that seems like it could be better, I've already shown that it is an anti-trust, no win situation that implies competition, but in reality there is none. It's a farce. When you have to pursue a claim and two insurance comapnies are involved and subrogation [one insurance company assuming the risk] kicks in, they aren't looking out for you, they're for the industry because they probably are insuring each other back and forth and of course the lawyers that specialize is in this are not going to push the envelope because they are all colleagues. Now I know not all lawyers just play utility, but then when one does go out and really fight, like John Edwards, he is blasphemed and the false flag of tort reform!!!! is waved, but it's crap. The fact is, the majority of law is concerned with insurance, it clogs our courts, it clogs our laws and slows down the entire legal system. The insurance industry uses the legal system to delay, delay, delay. You either run out of money, lose hope or die. Then people say: " Let insurance be sold over state lines!!!" Uh huh, sure, have you ever cracked a Reporter [Regional books with citations from appeals from higher courts that contain precedents]? More than half of the cases are about insurance or some insurable interest. You can be sure any and all insurance companies are up to speed on all the laws, in all the states and have formed agreements to attack or lay off of a particular market and know exactly how to play ball, and know the actuarial stats for any given risk pool. It's what they do. Why should they compete when they control everything? They control our financial system and our legal system and in so doing, they control our government.

Verbosity is the key to a great post!


So aside from the verbosity, did you read it? I usually try to be brief, and for the premise put forth, it is about as short as I could make it.

And there is much more to add.

Did I READ it? What are you? High?

Of course not.

I'm waiting for the movie version to come out.
 
It would make a great movie.:lol:

Perhaps cliffs notes?

Seriously, I took the time to plow through it. ;)

I'm a title agent, that's what I'm doing exclusively right now. What you say about title insurance is spot-on. But it doesn't address the key issue: the State sets both the content of the policy and its price. It also sets the prices for endorsements that can be (almost always are) required for purchase as well as any protection letters or other add-ons.

There is no competition between agents, or between companies, on price or quality of product. The only competition that exists is the service provided as title and escrow agent by the title compnay itself. Genrally speaking, the insurers fall into two categories: those that are linked (not obviously) to what we consider more traditional insurers and those like the company I write for that are linked instead to the broader real estate services and lending market. Which means they are tied in with the financials, and then again back to the greater insurance industry.

The real kicker is, the borrowers are the ones who pay for the insurance and it can get pricey. But unless they also purchase an owner's policy it does not cover them in case of a loss - only the lender. And there are more losses than one might imagine. A good agent finds them and gets them fixed before closing, but not all agents are good and there are in fact plenty of claims of all sizes.

If health insurance works the same way, it's no wonder we're so screwed up.
 
It would make a great movie.:lol:

Perhaps cliffs notes?

Seriously, I took the time to plow through it. ;)

I'm a title agent, that's what I'm doing exclusively right now. What you say about title insurance is spot-on. But it doesn't address the key issue: the State sets both the content of the policy and its price. It also sets the prices for endorsements that can be (almost always are) required for purchase as well as any protection letters or other add-ons.

There is no competition between agents, or between companies, on price or quality of product. The only competition that exists is the service provided as title and escrow agent by the title compnay itself. Genrally speaking, the insurers fall into two categories: those that are linked (not obviously) to what we consider more traditional insurers and those like the company I write for that are linked instead to the broader real estate services and lending market. Which means they are tied in with the financials, and then again back to the greater insurance industry.

The real kicker is, the borrowers are the ones who pay for the insurance and it can get pricey. But unless they also purchase an owner's policy it does not cover them in case of a loss - only the lender. And there are more losses than one might imagine. A good agent finds them and gets them fixed before closing, but not all agents are good and there are in fact plenty of claims of all sizes.

If health insurance works the same way, it's no wonder we're so screwed up.

It all works the same way. I didn't even get into how the state insurance administrations, state legislatures and the federal gov't are totally inundated and infiltrated by former insurance execs and how our laws are set up in their favor and how litigation is a quagmire........we're owned.
 
they need to scrap this bill and start over again. All of us realizes that we need to reform the health INSURANCE industry, introduce competition, do cost savings such as tort reform, etc. What the majority disagree on is the total and complete overhaul of our current system. 80% of Americans have health insurance and most are happy with their coverage. Under the Obama plan it is estimated that the public option would eventually eliminate private coverage, cost an additional 1 trillion dollars, ration care and grow our national debt by leaps and bounds. Besides that, the government has never run anything well, so we would be engaging in insanity to allow them to take this over too. It's clear to me by the current polling data, that Obama is losing ground at a rapid pace with his plan. The majority of Americans don't want his plan. Reform of the health insurance industry we need, not a complete overhaul of our health care.

That's why you will now hear reform of the health INSURANCE, instead of reform of the health care system.
 
I just want to see if i'm all alone here or what.

It seems like the majority of people in this forum are either Party Line Talking Point Parrots or legitimate party zealots.


In all the health care threads I keep telling people I want our system, especially the coverage, to be much better as I dont think we have adequate coverage. I am also stating that after reading this bill I can not support it as it will cause way too many drastic changes to the care side of the equation.

On top of that I just dont trust the same congress and general govt that brought us Iraq, a poorly funded cash for clunkers, dispicable defecit spending that will destroy our wealth, have been unable to fund social security, and more. I just dont understand how people can trust these same nitwits with an 1100 page monstrosity like the current health care bill.


So Really i'm just hoping i'm not all alone pissing in the wind here with this one. Anyone else have a similar feeling on this?

I don't think you're pissing in the wind at all. The method we developed here in America for paying for Healthcare needs to be different.

I don't trust congress but I do trust the government. The jury is still out for me on the American Mutt in The Whitehouse...

I trust the government because I have seen what a group of middle class bureaucrats can accomplish on less than 1% of the taxes that funds their program. Government can and does 'work'. Social Security is the agency that collects your FICA taxes and sets you up for disability payments if the shit hits the fan in your life or sets up a tidy monthly income for retirees who've won the 21st century version of the game of life, provided you pay into the system.

Social Security has its problems to be sure... but compare the private insurance bureaucracies efficiency of 20 to 25% to Social Security's efficiency of less than 1% and, in principle and in practice, Social Security is the most efficiently run insurance company in history. Government can work.

In answer to your question, I am for changes but I am not in favor of the current bill that was written, at a handsome profit, by the lobbyists and paid for by the insurance, drug and medical industries.

I do believe that there is room in the market place for a government option and the best thing that ever happened to the post office was competition.

The shit-pile of money that the nation saves for the inevitable rainy day in the form of various for profit 'insurance' programs is ludicrous..... Isn't squirreling a few nuts away in a safe place supposed to 'pay' the saver?

-Joe
 
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It all works the same way. I didn't even get into how the state insurance administrations, state legislatures and the federal gov't are totally inundated and infiltrated by former insurance execs and how our laws are set up in their favor and how litigation is a quagmire........we're owned.

I'm wondering how, if the only co-ops that currently exist (and I honestly did not know about them) are local entities in one or perhaps a few states, they can work them out to be large enough to compete then? I'm intrigued by the idea but that's a huge juggernaut to take on.
 
They have one in Grand Juction Colorado, I think that's why the President went there. It's called Rocky Mountain Health.
 
Are you always this way with people trying to have a civil conversation, or do I just rub you the wrong way? This isn't the first time you've been a bitch to me for no reason I could see, and I'll bet you won't provide any explanation this time either. I came here to discuss issues, not to take crap from people like you. Good day.

And you still failed to provide an example of a medical co-op (I think that's what Annie was asking for). However, you were very successful at calling Annie a bitch (I don't think that's what she was asking for). Your idea of civil conversations seems a bit foreign to me when you call somebody a bitch.

There are no examples of a medical co-op, MM. That's why they would have to be established. I thought anybody following the health care debate would know that and didn't appreciate the obvious snark in her answer. It was bitchy. If she honestly did not know that and though tI was holding out on her, then I owe her an apology.

Of course there are medical co-ops. This is a link to the co-op the Senate Finance Committee is using as a model for their proposal.

Group Health Cooperative, Seattle, Washington
 
here's part of an interesting article:

United Agricultural Benefit Trust works like a commercial insurer, negotiating rates with a network of doctors and hospitals, but it is owned by members.

Many of them, like Ramsay, say co-ops offer better service and are cheaper because they don't have to turn a profit. Critics say co-ops, which are not as tightly regulated as other insurance providers, are susceptible to insolvency and wouldn't work on a large scale.

California Insurance Commissioner Steve Poizner said co-ops faced the same challenges as other insurance or shared-risk entities, but with one added vulnerability: If a whole industry is hit hard financially, that could ruin a co-op. But, he said, "with the correct oversight, they can be successful."

Co-ops are formed when groups of small-business owners band together and use strength in numbers to negotiate lower insurance premiums. The agricultural trust was founded in 1983 by farm and ranch owners who had struggled to find insurance for their laborers because providers were reluctant to insure migrant workers.

Co-ops are able to keep low rates because, unlike traditional insurers, they're exempt from taxes on premiums, said Mila Kofman, Maine's superintendent of insurance. Kofman, who has spent years studying co-ops, said they also are exempt from "assessments that fund state safety-net programs, such as guaranty funds, which pay claims when an insurer becomes insolvent."

Co-ops don't have that safety net.

Though risky, health care co-ops cheaper | HonoluluAdvertiser.com | The Honolulu Advertiser
 
And you still failed to provide an example of a medical co-op (I think that's what Annie was asking for). However, you were very successful at calling Annie a bitch (I don't think that's what she was asking for). Your idea of civil conversations seems a bit foreign to me when you call somebody a bitch.

There are no examples of a medical co-op, MM. That's why they would have to be established. I thought anybody following the health care debate would know that and didn't appreciate the obvious snark in her answer. It was bitchy. If she honestly did not know that and though tI was holding out on her, then I owe her an apology.

Of course there are medical co-ops. This is a link to the co-op the Senate Finance Committee is using as a model for their proposal.

Group Health Cooperative, Seattle, Washington

I missed this before at the bottom of a page, sorry. I'm missing stuff all over the place today it seems. I understand how it works, but how does it compete with the traditional insurers?
 

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