Are faith, God and love without deeds, dead?

Discussion in 'Religion and Ethics' started by GreatestIam, Jan 25, 2012.

  1. GreatestIam
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    GreatestIam VIP Member

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    Are faith, God and love without deeds, dead?

    Paul took the position that salvation could be gained on faith alone. James took the position that faith without works and deeds is dead. Even if one had faith, like demons and Satan must, without works they were still going to hell.

    Most have landed with James who said that faith without deeds and works was dead. This may be due to Jesus who said that we would recognize his people by their works.

    Love, it would seem to me, has the same characteristic as faith. Love without works and deeds is dead. Be it love for a spouse, our children, parents or friends or even God, if we did not do works and deeds, they could not know that we love them. At the very least, we would have to tell them we love them and that falls into works and deeds.

    Many believers tell me that God is love or loves us all. They always point to deeds and works that fall in the range of un-provable miracles. Most of these miracles are in the ancient past. Creation and what not. Some take it to the present and I have been told often that God can do whatever he wants with us because he made us. I discard this out of hand because I believe that if that were true, God would not also create all those things that kill us and cause us to suffer. That is not a loving act.

    Love, human to human, must have ongoing deeds and works to be alive. Without these, love is dead.

    Love, God to human, must also have ongoing works and deeds. If God is alive, he must and would express his love with viable and recognizable actions.

    If we cannot see these acts on God’s part --- and you agree that love must be expressed somehow with works and deeds, ----does that mean that God does not love or that he is dead?

    Regards
    DL
     
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  2. Truthmatters
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    Truthmatters BANNED

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    how can something be dead that never existed?

    Good deeds should be done becaused they make the world better.

    Want a better world, reflect that world in your own deeds.

    I have never understood why some need the threat of burning in hell to be a decent human being.
     
  3. GreatestIam
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    GreatestIam VIP Member

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    Threats, guilt and fear are needed to keep good people adhering to an evil theology.

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc]'Hell' as an invention of the church - YouTube[/ame]

    Regards
    DL
     
  4. The Irish Ram
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    The Irish Ram LITTLE GIRL / Ram Tough

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    Salvation and works have absolutely nothing in common. Salvation is a gift bestowed on us by God, by way of Christ. There are no works, no works, that will give you access to salvation.
    Works will however, determine your rewards or lack there of once you have received your salvation. Works that you performed on Earth for Christ's sake will survive. Works done for your own gratification or edification will burn up.
    Mother Teresa went to heaven because her Lord, paid for her sins. The fact that she sacrificed her life to do the Lord's work here on earth earned her a BIG OLD CROWN in Paradise.
     
  5. FA_Q2
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    FA_Q2 Gold Member

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    Where in the bible is that supported at all? As far as I can tell, there are no shades of eternal heaven.
     
  6. GreatestIam
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    GreatestIam VIP Member

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    Another scapegoat rider trying to profit from the murder of an innocent man. Tsk tsk.

    Have you not read your bible?
    Do you not know what your God thinks of sacrifice?

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U]Nothing but the blood? - YouTube[/ame]

    Do you not know of the idiocy of killing the innocent and allowing the guilty to walk?

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYaQpRZJl18&feature=related]Christopher Hitchens - Christianity is Immoral (1 of 2) - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-91mSkxaXs]The meaningless death of Jesus - YouTube[/ame]

    Regards
    DL
     
  7. The Irish Ram
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    The Irish Ram LITTLE GIRL / Ram Tough

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    The Bible clearly affirms that the only power that can forgive man's sins is the blood of Jesus. His death paid the penalty for our sins:
    Ephesians 1:7
    Romans 5:6-9
    Hebrews 9:14
    1 Peter 1:18,19
    Rev. 1:5
    Having said that, and concerning works, there are definite shades in Heaven. An example would be the crowns given to some. I can think of 5 specific ones. Here are some passages on who is worthy of what....
    1 Cor. 3:8
    1 Cor. 9:24
    1 Peter 5:1-4
    2Tim. 4:78
    Rev. 2:23
    Rev. 22:12
    And yet, understand, that even tho Billy Graham may have brought more souls to Christ than say, Pastor Smith has, both will be wearing the soul winner's crown. Others may not receive that crown..

    About murdering Jesus. If we hadn't nailed him to that cross, he would have climbed up on that cross by himself. He was here on a mission. He could have climbed down from that cross at any time and turned his "jury" into toast. Instead, he completed his mission.
    That mission was our salvation. Without it, WE are toast.
     
  8. Thete
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    Thete Bachelor of Theology

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    I'd say that Paul and James alter Jesus's message.

    IMO, Jesus talked about change - of heart and works. Not just one of them.
     
  9. mskafka
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    mskafka Silver Member

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    Agree-faith and works go hand in hand. And one shouldn't just do works to get a ticket to heaven. One should do them out of love for their fellow man.

    Now that being said, God hates all sin. The way I understand it, is that nothing that a mortal does really impresses Him. Or perhaps I should go back and read my Bible.

    But again-God hates ALL sin. Murderer, theieves, etc... I was never taught that once saved, always saved. Please don't take offense to that...any of you who believe it. Going out and having a few glasses of wine, is no worse than sitting around gossiping about that person drinking, and ruining his/her reputation. While I don't agree personally with abortion (when the mother's irresponsibility alone got her in the situation), it's also not our place to judge her. And bombing or killing the staff, is just as big of a sin. Two wrongs don't make a right.

    But digressing...yes to the works! It is inherently good. Love is good. And if one looks hard enough, they can find something to love, in just about every person. It's not always easy, but you have to try.

    BTW-great discussion.
     
  10. GreatestIam
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    GreatestIam VIP Member

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    What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

    Only an insane God. That’s who.

    The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

    Would you drive the nails in?

    If you as a father decided that blood had to be used to forgive sins, which would be the most loving way.

    For you to step up or for you to send your child?

    What is best? For fathers to bury their sons or for sons to bury their fathers.

    Regards
    DL
     

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