Apologies in advance to Christians, but to Jews: Would Jews have been better off if Jesus hadn’t been born?

[Lisa558]

That's great.

One question. If the deeper meaning and hidden subject of Kosher law is revealed to be about teaching and not food doesn't a person have to decide between the two especially since the literal application of the refrain from eating the flesh of swine that do not ruminate violates the deeper meaning?

Isn't the teaching that the subject of kosher law is about clean or unclean food in itself the flesh of unclean creatures that do not ruminate? Knowing this now should anyone continue to teach their children to differentiate between clean and unclean food or clean and unclean teaching?

Has that ever come up in your studies?

Isn't complying with the will of God in the right way a matter of life and death?

The concept of clean and unclean, or more broadly, Jewish laws, is driven home by actions. To just say, “you should be” without actions backing it up becomes weak. It’s actually a key difference between Christianity and Judaism.

For example, we buried a lifelong friend last week, and each of us lined up to shovel a mound of Earth over the coffin - to the Earth thou will return - and we are assisting to see that done.

But why? The gravediggers could do the whole thing, but it is a mitzvah to do something for someone WHO CAN NEVER DO A MITZVAH IN RETURN. It is just pure compassion to do what is right for the recently deceased, knowing the kindness will not be reciprocated.

Now you may say that the concept is good - let’s teach our children to be good to others simply because that’s the right thing to do - but to go ahead and take actions that demonstrate it make it so much stronger.

There really is no point to you trying to convince me there is no purpose to keeping kosher. It’s actually offensive, to tell you the truth.

 

[hobelim]

There really is no point to you trying to convince me there is no purpose to keeping kosher. It’s actually offensive, to tell you the truth.

You are mistaken. I am not telling you that there is no purpose in keeping kosher. It's quite the opposite. I am telling you that since the deeper meaning of kosher law is about teaching and not food, flesh being a metaphor for the beliefs or teaching of the described lower beasts which are obvious metaphors for human archetypes, then keeping kosher has nothing whatever to do with food.

In fact, eating or abstaining from certain food does not fulfill the laws demands and is not kosher.

If you want to keep kosher , eat my flesh.

 

[Lisa558]

You are mistaken. I am not telling you that there is no purpose in keeping kosher. It's quite the opposite. I am telling you that since the deeper meaning of kosher law is about teaching and not food, flesh being a metaphor for the beliefs or teaching of the described lower beasts which are obvious metaphors for human archetypes, then keeping kosher has nothing whatever to do with food.

In fact, eating or abstaining from certain food does not fulfill the laws demands and is not kosher.

If you want to keep kosher , eat my flesh.

With a nice glass of Chianti? But nope..…a nice Jewish girl such as myself would NOT be a cannibal. Unless of course my soccer team crashed in the Andes and my only hope of survival was….ick….doing that. Judaism teachers that life supersedes all laws.

Anyway, you are telling me that avoiding shellfish and pork does not fulfill kashrut, and I am telling you it does. The laws are laid out in a Leviticus, and traditional Jews keep the traditional laws. That is all.

I think you might be stuck on what Jesus said. I’ve heard mixed accounts. I’ve heard that as a practicing Jew, he did keep kosher. I also heard, via accounts in the NT, that he told his followers they did NOT have to keep kosher. I have a theory as to why the NT tells us Jesus said Jews can eat whatever they want (if indeed he did say that).

 

[hobelim]

With a nice glass of Chianti? But nope..…a nice Jewish girl such as myself would NOT be a cannibal. Unless of course my soccer team crashed in the Andes and my only hope of survival was….ick….doing that. Judaism teachers that life supersedes all laws.

lol....Not even with fava beans?

What I said has nothing whatever to do with cannibalism, but you already knew that, unless of course you read what I wrote previously without understanding a single word which I find astonishing coming from someone who studies Torah weekly in search of deeper meaning.

As I said before and showed you in the dead sea scrolls there has always been deeper meaning to the Law, even Kashrut, that has been withheld from even other Jews.

Any knowledge which the expositor of the law may possess but which may have to remain arcane to the ordinary layman, he shall not keep hidden from them; for in their case there need be no fear that it might induce apostasy.

No one is to engage in discussion or disputation with men of ill repute; and in the company of froward men everyone is to abstain from talk about (keep hidden) the meaning of the Law

What was withheld from the world and even other Jewish people is the fact that the subject of kosher law was never about food.

Thats why Jesus said "who lights a candle only to hide it under a bushel?" "It should be put on a lampstand to give light to everyone in the room." which was a reference to the fact that the subjects of the law were being hidden from the people who needed that light in their lives and was the disregarded of a direct command from God for the people to be a light to the nations.

Maybe I should have apologized in advance for raising this issue...

 

[Lisa558]

OMG.

Are you saying that the quoted material is from the Dead Sea Scrolls? If so, you just quoted from something that says the truth should NOT be hidden from them!

As far as cannibalism, yes….you did say I should eat your flesh. Ick.

And as far as your suggestion of an apology, yes….it is offensive to keep arguing with a kosher-observant Jew that it’s not about the food, only the deeper meaning, and thus they can drop their silly kosher shtick and just focus on the deeper meaning.

What you are unable to understand is that OBEYING THE LAWS is key to observant Jews. It was Jesus who supposedly said one doesn’t need to because it’s the deeper meaning that counts, but as I said, there’s no way to know if he really said. But even if he did, that would carry no weight with Jews.

Finally, there’s another reason why I don’t eat pork and lobster, etc.: to refrain ties me to 4000 years of Jewish people and affirms my identity as a Jew. Let‘s consider THAT the deeper meaning: heritage.

 

[hobelim]

OMG.

Are you saying that the quoted material is from the Dead Sea Scrolls? If so, you just quoted from something that says the truth should NOT be hidden from them!

As far as cannibalism, yes….you did say I should eat your flesh. Ick.

And as far as your suggestion of an apology, yes….it is offensive to keep arguing with a kosher-observant Jew that it’s not about the food, only the deeper meaning, and thus they can drop their silly kosher shtick and just focus on the deeper meaning.

What you are unable to understand is that OBEYING THE LAWS is key to observant Jews. It was Jesus who supposedly said one doesn’t need to because it’s the deeper meaning that counts, but as I said, there’s no way to know if he really said. But even if he did, that would carry no weight with Jews.

Yes it is from the manual of disciple which clearly shows that those hidden subjects were withheld, (must remain arcane to the ordinary layman) from the public left in the dark, worrying about sex, what to wear, and what's for dinner. Only the initiated few knew of it.


Any knowledge which the expositor of the law may possess but which may have to remain arcane to the ordinary layman


And I agree OBEYING THE LAWS is not only key to observant Jews but key to the life of the world.

And Yes, the deeper meaning, when discovered, renders the superficial obsolete. The literal creates a false image of God as a capricious and puerile petty tyrant. The deeper meaning of the exact same laws renders the image of God as a wise and benevolent loving father.

You can't have it both ways. That's just sound reasoning. If that means nothing to Jewish people then studying Torah has been a waste of time.

 

[Lisa558]

Yes it is from the manual of disciple which clearly shows that those hidden subjects were withheld, (must remain arcane to the ordinary layman) from the public left in the dark, worrying about what to wear and what's for dinner. only the initiated few knew of it.


Any knowledge which the expositor of the law may possess but which may have to remain arcane to the ordinary layman


And I agree OBEYING THE LAWS is not only key to observant Jews but key to the life of the world.

And Yes, the deeper meaning, when discovered, renders the superficial obsolete. The literal creates a false image of God as a capricious and puerile petty tyrant. The deeper meaning of the exact same laws renders the image of God as a wise and benevolent loving father.

You can't have it both ways. That's just sound reasoning. If that means nothing to Jewish people then studying Torah has been a waste of time.

What do you mean it’s from the Manual of the Disciple? I never heard of that, so I looked it up - it’s a Christian thing! You are using Christian interpretations as the basis when talking to a Jewish girl why keeping kosher is superficial?

Do you not see that you are using Christian teachings, which explains why keeping kosher isn’t about food (which is why Jesus supposedly said that one doesn’t have to keep kosher) to convince an observant Jew to go along with Christian interpretation??

Do you not see why telling an observant Jew to consider the Christian teachings is offensive? It’s like an evangelical I knew who kept ending her emails to me with the quote about only getting to the Father through the Son. When I told her that was offensive, she said she didn’t understand why it was offensive to remind me that the only way to Heaven was through Jesus.

So basically, you are telling me to consider what Christianity says about keeping kosher, which was that you don’t have to do it anymore. Do you know WHY they came up with that? It’s because they were trying to convince Jews to adopt Christianity, and one of the benefits they were promising was that you won’t have to keep kosher if you do.

 

[hobelim]

What do you mean it’s from the Manual of the Disciple? I never heard of that, so I looked it up - it’s a Christian thing! You are using Christian interpretations as the basis when talking to a Jewish girl why keeping kosher is superficial?

Do you not see that you are using Christian teachings, which explains why keeping kosher isn’t about food (which is why Jesus supposedly said that one doesn’t have to keep kosher) to convince an observant Jew to go along with Christian interpretation??

Do you not see why telling an observant Jew to consider the Christian teachings is offensive? It’s like an evangelical I knew who kept ending her emails to me with the quote about only getting to the Father through the Son. When I told her that was offensive, she said she didn’t understand why it was offensive to remind me that the only way to Heaven was through Jesus.

So basically, you are telling me to consider what Christianity says about keeping kosher, which was that you don’t have to do it anymore. Do you know WHY they came up with that? It’s because they were trying to convince Jews to adopt Christianity, and one of the benefits they were promising was that you won’t have to keep kosher if you do.

You are just wrong. Is that so hard to believe. I am not Christian neither would I ever perpetuate or condone their irrational beliefs and degrading practices even if faced with death. When I tell them of these exact same things they accuse me of being a sod Jew who hates Jesus. Ugh..and WTF

Don't be afraid. Try to ruminate, think about it, instead of reacting emotionally . You can do it!

Manual Of Discipline | Encyclopedia.com

*Discipline, Manual of.* One of the Dead Sea [1] Scrolls. It contains a description of the customs of the Dead Sea [2] sect including the annual renewal of the covenant [3]. This is followed by an explanation of the spiritual status of the sect. The document concludes with three hymns of praise.

www.encyclopedia.com

 

[.oldschool]

What do you mean it’s from the Manual of the Disciple?

 

[beautress]

Better ask about whether Saul/Paul was born. Jesus was just another rabbi of that time.....it's the cult leader Paul that took the ball and ran with it.

Not only was St. Paul raised in a Jewish home, he was a master Jewish scholar. He earned a name for himself in an anti-Christian detective whose job was to find Christians and rat them out to militants seeking to kill Christians before he was confronted by the Holy Spirit on the Road to Demascus. He was blinded by holy light and was directed to visit St. Peter who not only healed him of his affliction, he helped Paul strengthen his faith after dealing with the Holy Spirit of Christ that fateful day. I'm reasonably certain St. Paul did not know that Christ was the most accurate of rabbis in the Jewish faith, as his ministry focused on teaching his fellow Jews what the scriptures meant, and he said about any point of scripture was perfectly spoken and made simple enough for a child to know God's most important laws and expectations. I love what Jesus said as quoted in the Gospels of the New Testament.

 

[surada]

Not only was St. Paul raised in a Jewish home, he was a master Jewish scholar. He earned a name for himself in an anti-Christian detective whose job was to find Christians and rat them out to militants seeking to kill Christians before he was confronted by the Holy Spirit on the Road to Demascus. He was blinded by holy light and was directed to visit St. Peter who not only healed him of his affliction, he helped Paul strengthen his faith after dealing with the Holy Spirit of Christ that fateful day.

I'm reasonably certain St. Paul did not know that Christ was the most accurate of rabbis in the Jewish faith, as his ministry focused on teaching his fellow Jews what the scriptures meant, and he said about any point of scripture was perfectly spoken and made simple enough for a child to know God's most important laws and expectations. I love what Jesus said as quoted in the Gospels of the New Testament.

What scriptures was Jesus teaching his fellow Jews?