CDZ Alternative to Libertarianism: Competing Privatized Mini States

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by grbb, Sep 11, 2018.

Tags:
  1. grbb
    Offline

    grbb VIP Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2016
    Messages:
    547
    Thanks Received:
    38
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Ratings:
    +129
    We are more libertarian now than our ancestors. We're relatively fine now.

    Why?

    Because there are 194 states competing with one another.

    As long as governments "COMPETE" then it won't get big.

    States will be like ice cream shops. Sure, ,each shop can raise price and set terms as they wish. But because they compete, then most ice cream shops, most shops, will just sell ice cream at "reasonable" price and move on.

    In fact, my idea of ideal world, is no longer libertarian. Not everyone wants to be free. Some wants certain flavor, some wants religious people, some wants to hang out with those of the same race.

    Just like every noodle shops have different secret sauce, why not let every states provide different flavor of government.

    There are limitations of course. I don't know what. But should be something natural. Noodle shops cannot scam customers, cannot attack other shops. Usually this is done by government prohibiting it. However, is it? Noodle shops that scam customers will be avoided. You can only scam people once on free market. Noodle shops that attack other shops will be obliterated.

    The same with states. Even though technically every state is sovereign and can simply decide to attack other states, most don't.

    Let governments do what they wanna do, but make sure they don't wage war against one another.

    Move to states you like.

    States can be like cinema. Are cinemas libertarian? No. You can't brought pop corn to cinema. It's his cinema. He decides you can't bring pop corn. So? By doing so, cinemas can charge less for movies.

    The same way, so what if some states have sales tax, tariff, or land taxes. I kind of hate income tax but so what if they have? It's what makes those states exist for the time being. Without any sort of taxes the states will collapse. Next time evil terrorists want to loot your house, who you gonna call?

    Most libertarians think that states should completely decriminalize all drugs. What about if some states choose to tax those drugs instead and prohibit the really dangerous one like flaka? Good enough for me.

    Most libertarians hate welfare. What about if some states pay people to stop producing kids? Good enough for me.

    There could be one "perfect" solution for some problems. However, many other reasonable solutions are fine too.

    Yes. There is a lot of problem with that. But I think that will be solvable.

    Have this been tried? Perfectly no. There are things that are close enough.

    Sample case:

    Western Europe culture. The most advance culture in the world for the last 500 years.

    Why are they so advanced?

    The chinese emperor can ban all foreign trade just like that.

    In western europe, they got tons of mini states. When colombus is rejected by one, it got money from the other.

    Notice. Not only this is a relatively libertarian measure compared to China, it's even better. The travel to find a new world produces more money than the research cost. That is not solved by market mechanism. Yet a king can say, okay, I fund it.

    And for quite a while, europeans are the richest most powerful nations in the world.

    Sample 2:

    United States. Ever wonder why the country is called united states?

    The federal government prohibits ganja. Yet, California legalize it. People can just move to California.

    Now there is a problem with this arrangement. Imagine if a state is better governed. Then people will simply move from another state to that state. That means taking resources away from the advance state.

    This lead to another sample

    Sample 3:

    Our whole globes. Our whole globes are getting more and more libertarians. Recently Donald Trump lower highest corporate tax rates. Big businesses are more powerful than typical governments.

    That means with no or very little force or fraud, people can build big businesses and now in power. Once you are in power, why should you complain about anything? You want something just get it. That's what in power mean.

    There are 194 competing states. Just move to where you like.

    What about if some states are well governed and too many wants to come in? Reasonable reaction. Imagine you have a very successful companies. Imagine if many wants to own the stocks too. Of course you said no.

    That is why most western countries have large number of people don't like immigrants.

    Surely we can have some sort of a deal for this. For example, a country with too many immigrants wanting to come in can charge money for people wanting to come in. Oh they did. We call that visa.

    Most countries are doing it well actually. You can enter any country with cheap visa as tourists. You wanna work? That's more involved.

    So not too bad. I want something more libertarian, but we're not there yet.

    The world, currently is, is fine enough.

    Immediate improvements?

    Hmmm... I think states should have owners like stocks. That way all citizens can know whether their states valuation go up or down.

    Currently I think citizenships are like owners of those states. However, it is given freely to anyone born on the right spot. So welfare parasites that breed 1000 kids got 1000 citizenships.

    The problem in most western civilization is not welfare. The problem is a never ending exponential growth of welfare given to people that do absolutely nothing positive for the state except being born at the right place. I think citizens in most states should see this is not a good idea.

    Say immigrants from Mexico is cheaper than American working in US. I think those mexican should be hired to further maxed out profit for businesses. If American citizens do not like that, they should strike a deal. May be they get free cash from visa or something. If something can be done cheaper it should be done more cheaply. Dubai is doing it well.

    What else?

    Why not start with something I can do my self. Be a digital nomad. Any place I should move around?
     
  2. flacaltenn
    Online

    flacaltenn Senior Mod Staff Member Senior USMB Moderator Gold Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2011
    Messages:
    48,034
    Thanks Received:
    8,010
    Trophy Points:
    2,030
    Location:
    Hillbilly Hollywood, Tenn
    Ratings:
    +28,471
    I'm writing an article right now about City-States, or Emirates in the Middle East. That's always been the PREFERRED method of governing in the ancient world and even now in places like UAE.

    In general, city-states can choose any form of government that suits their history, culture and tradition. But in the Middle East, the preferred governance is based on tribal, sectarian, familial roots.

    If it's done in a modern Western society, this kind of sovereignty arrangement is also likely to become tribal or sectarian and lead to Balkanization. And in the modern world, you still need efficiency of coalitions and loose "federations" to make diplomacy and essential services workable. Imagine a post EU Europe conducting diplomacy and custom and immigration with 50 different state govts in the US or 250 regional governments. It would look more like anarchy and the whole concept of open markets and free trade would crash and burn.

    There's an efficiency to centralization of SOME powers and services. Like immigration, diplomacy, currency, judicial cooperation, etc.

    Not looking forward to "tribalizing" America more than it's becoming polarized and tribalized right now. I like the Constitution and the IDEALS of this govt. It's just that the people are voting for "winners" and not folks that understand the federal powers are out of control.
     
  3. Damaged Eagle
    Offline

    Damaged Eagle Ride the wind Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2015
    Messages:
    9,746
    Thanks Received:
    13,740
    Trophy Points:
    2,445
    Location:
    Never coming back until I touch the midnight sun
    Ratings:
    +19,759
    [​IMG]

    *****SMILE*****



    :)
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  4. C_Clayton_Jones
    Online

    C_Clayton_Jones Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2011
    Messages:
    46,987
    Thanks Received:
    10,063
    Trophy Points:
    2,030
    Location:
    In a Republic, actually
    Ratings:
    +30,503
    Pragmatism is the alternative to libertarianism; it’s the alternative conservativism as well: stop adhering blindly to failed, wrongheaded libertarian/conservative doctrine and dogma.
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  5. grbb
    Offline

    grbb VIP Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2016
    Messages:
    547
    Thanks Received:
    38
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Ratings:
    +129
    You wrote an article? Yes I wanna see it. Overall I like the idea.

    The conflict at kosovo happens because the serbs do not want their fellow serbs live under syariah. The truth is, even the muslim in kosovo don't do that.

    They really should come to the muslim and say, look our fellows in your region do not want Syariah. So we want exemption there.

    In fact, the idea of mini states is the very solution of this problem. Rather than having serbians and kosovans. The Yugoslavia should split into hundreds of province. Each province can choose which group they want to choose.

    The Yugoslavia itself doesn't have to be split at all. It can be one country. Hell, the whole NATO can be like one country when it comes to defense.

    Actually I sort of like your idea.

    Certain "government" service like "visa" and "defense" can be "unified". The rest like welfare, roads, public schools, legalization of drugs, can be "localized".

    Also we need a way to keep score. How much residency in one region is worth compared to residency in other regions.

    A mini state should be able to charge money just so people can live there. It should be part of income and a much more consensual tax.

    Imagine if my state has no crime. Say all the low lives are paid not to reproduce or the state don't waste money pursuing victimless crime. Many solutions are actually close to libertarianism.

    Then anyone avoiding crime can move to my mini states but it won't be free. The original citizens on that awesome states should be benefited.

    I think at the end, countries (big states) can buy and sell provinces (mini states) from other countries.

    Do whatever you want. Make sure you are rich. Just like normal relationship.

    If a country fail to get rich, their central government can have some justification to revoke or reduce their autonomy.

    The same goes for citizenship. I used to believe that all people should be free. However, I think it's reasonable that the poor are "guided" by governments till they're wise enough to get rich.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018 at 5:28 AM
  6. MarathonMike
    Offline

    MarathonMike Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2014
    Messages:
    9,238
    Thanks Received:
    2,807
    Trophy Points:
    390
    Location:
    The Southwestern Desert
    Ratings:
    +16,396
    This is weird I did not write this and don't recall posting in this thread! Reading the thread I see it was written by FLACALTENN I don't plagiarize.
     
  7. grbb
    Offline

    grbb VIP Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2016
    Messages:
    547
    Thanks Received:
    38
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Ratings:
    +129
    I think I made some mistakes when inserting quotes. Too many quotes got inserted. I deleted stuffs. And then somehow some info got deleted. Quotes from someone else looks like quotes from you. Sorry.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  8. grbb
    Offline

    grbb VIP Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2016
    Messages:
    547
    Thanks Received:
    38
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Ratings:
    +129
    Click quote, and it doesn't get quoted. Click insert quotes and many quotes, many of which are from different thread, got inserted. So what to do?
     
  9. grbb
    Offline

    grbb VIP Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2016
    Messages:
    547
    Thanks Received:
    38
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Ratings:
    +129
    I should have clicked reply instead of quote. Sorry sorry :04:
     

Share This Page