Almost 80 million with employer health care plans could have coverage canceled

[g5000]

I already told you I went to HR and our plans will be changed. Because the current one will be cancelled.

Changed =/= cancelled.

I see you are very selective in what you will answer.
\
The ONLY reason my plan will get changed (and probably cost more in the process) is because my firm follows my industry lead and since we're a multi million dollar a year firm, the higher ups will shift the plan to a compliant one. The current plan is still cancelled.

You really are engaged in a game of sophistry, dude.

Not everyone is going to be as licky as me. If you call having to pay a lot more for coverage you dont need as lucky.

So like I said, you will end up with BETTER coverage. Not NO insurance, as this bogus 80 million claim implies.


Three things happen when an employer loses their grandfather status.

1) Nothing. Many companies have already lost their grandfather status, as predicted in the Register. But since their policies exceed the minimum standards of the ACA, this loss is insignificant and has no effect on their business practice going forward.

2) Cancellation. Some companies provide insurance which is below the ACA standards. Upon losing their grandfather status, they will be required to offer insurance which does meet the standards. They may choose instead to just cancel their plans and pay the penalties. These penalties will be applied to subsidies for their employees who will now get their insurance from health insurance exchanges. These new policies will have better coverage than what they used to have.

3) Better coverage provided to employees. Some companies provide insurance which is below the ACA standards. Upon losing their grandfather status, they will be required to offer insurance which does meet the standards. They may choose to do this.


And that is why "losing grandfather status" does not automatically mean "will cancel their insurance plans".

You fall under option 3, TakeAStepBack. You did not lose your insurance. You got better coverage insurance! And that is the actual intent of ObamaCare.

And yes, better is going to be more expensive. But it is a lie to say you lost your insurance. The only sophistry going on is you trying to say improved covered counts as "cancelled".



What is being left out of the picture is the many other employers who currently do not provide any insurance whatsoever. They are not grandfathered because they did not have an insurance plan to begin with. These companies will either have to start providing insurance or pay a penalty.



The end result, as was seen in Massachusetts, will be a larger percentage of employers providing health insurance.

 

[Vox]

Whoa whoa....So they weren't happening but they were happening because you saw it. But it was only rare because you saw it

It wasn't rare....because I saw it. In fact it happened all the time

no, they were NOT happening all the time - that's a LIE. they were happening on very rare occasions and usually were directly connected to the screw-up on paperwork of the insured themselves. Not that insurance companies were eagerly giving around goodies for free, but the spooky lying stories a-la fat liar moore did not happen.

it was all propaganda lie. I know it from the receiving end and people who were working in insurance businesses already have written million times from their giving point.

no it wasn't there were stories coming from everywhere...now you're pretending our system was so great that people voted for Obama touting Obamacare because they were all crazy.

stories are circulating around all the time - they are called urban legends - do you believe them all?

It is like telling "grey's anatomy" is describing the life of the surgery interns and residents
not even close.

the system was GOOD. In order to push his scam through obama LIED - otherwise neither it nor him had any chance.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Changed =/= cancelled.

I see you are very selective in what you will answer.
\
The ONLY reason my plan will get changed (and probably cost more in the process) is because my firm follows my industry lead and since we're a multi million dollar a year firm, the higher ups will shift the plan to a compliant one. The current plan is still cancelled.

You really are engaged in a game of sophistry, dude.

Not everyone is going to be as licky as me. If you call having to pay a lot more for coverage you dont need as lucky.

So like I said, you will end up with BETTER coverage. Not NO insurance, as this bogus 80 million claim implies.


Three things happen when an employer loses their grandfather status.

1) Nothing. Many companies have already lost their grandfather status, as predicted in the Register. But since their policies exceed the minimum standards of the ACA, this loss is insignificant and has no effect on their business practice going forward.

2) Cancellation. Some companies provide insurance which is below the ACA standards. Upon losing their grandfather status, they will be required to offer insurance which does meet the standards. They may choose instead to just cancel their plans and pay the penalties. These penalties will be applied to subsidies for their employees who will now get their insurance from health insurance exchanges. These new policies will have better coverage than what they used to have.

3) Better coverage provided to employees. Some companies provide insurance which is below the ACA standards. Upon losing their grandfather status, they will be required to offer insurance which does meet the standards. They may choose to do this.


And that is why "losing grandfather status" does not automatically mean "will cancel their insurance plans".

You fall under option 3, TakeAStepBack. You did not lose your insurance. You got better coverage insurance! And that is the actual intent of ObamaCare.

And yes, better is going to be more expensive. But it is a lie to say you lost your insurance. The only sophistry going on is you trying to say improved covered counts as "cancelled".



What is being left out of the picture is the many other employers who currently do not provide any insurance whatsoever. They are not grandfathered because they did not have an insurance plan to begin with. These companies will either have to start providing insurance or pay a penalty.



The end result, as was seen in Massachusetts, will be a larger percentage of employers providing health insurance.

The sophistry and dodging continue. Do you ever plan to buck up and answer the pertinent question I have asked you regarding your conjecture?

Apparently not.

You fall under 3 categories.

1) You actually believe that you have the answers without having the information data set to daw those answers.

2) You've deliberately set out on a pat of deception because you refuse to pack down once you've set out on a fallacious trail (ive seen you do this before)

3) You're really this ignorant.


I dont believe number 3, and since you answer only selectively to continue your conjecture riddled argument, Im going to have to assume it is #2.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Why is this thread not in the "Hate and Fear" forum? Oh, yeah, we don't have one. Maybe it's time.

Thanks for sharing.

You're most welcome. I always appreciate imitation, as most know it is the highest form of flattery.

I don't know what drives a assumed intelligent person to such blind loyalty to another.
That in the face of a reality which contradicts said loyalty.

 

[thereisnospoon]

So Fox News is lying? Right. How about Forbes, CNN, the New York Times or The National Review among many others. Why do liberals always lie? It is easy to google the story and get the real facts, but libtards would rather lie like their Messiah. Here is another source saying exactly the same thing.


In 2010, Administration Predicted 'Majority' of Employer-Based Health Plans Would Disappear | National Review Online

So when these plans disappear and a company decides not to offer insurance, will the employers raise the pay of the employees? Health insurance benefits are part of an employees pay. Or will the employers just pay whatever fine may apply to them, bag insurance benefits, and keep the employees pay the same?

Actually employer provided insurance coverage is a fringe benefit. An extra. Not part of any salary or wage.
More than likely, employers that drop insurance coverage and send their workers to the exchanges will simply pay the fines.
Now, if only a few companies do this, they will find themselves wondering what that "whoosh" sound is. That would be the sound by the mass exodus of workers heading out of the door after being hired by another firm.
If many employers drop coverage, status quo. The fines are cheaper.
This is by design. Obamacare was written with one major flaw. That is if the projected number of participants falls short, the program cannot work. So, the law includes the fine, but the fine was deliberately set lower than the cost to insure.

 

[thereisnospoon]

For the mentally challenged, I will repeat myself. Again.

The FACTS are that, in 2010, the Obama Administration predicted that 40 to 66 percent of businesses which sponsor health insurance for their employees would lose their grandfather status between 2011 and 2013. Those companies which provided health insurance to their employees before the enactment of the ACA were grandfathered from having to meet the minimum requirements of the ACA. But if they substantially changed their polices after enactment, they lost their grandfather status.


Got that? Would lose their grandfather status, NOT cancel their policies. And the period was from 2011 to the end of 2013. That is what the Obama Adminstration was talking about in the federal register. Go and look for yourselves. They never predictied 80 million people would lose their insurance. Faux News is lying to you. Flat out lying.

But then anyone who listens to Faux News deserves to be lied to.

Well, here we are, the end of 2013. A lot of companies have lost their grandfather status. Have 80 million people been disenrolled from employer sponsored health insurance?


Nope.


Have you bothered to go to your HR department and ask about this?

Probably not. Because you think Faux News is telling you the fair and balanced truth.

Many of you who have employer sponsored insurance may very well be working for a company that has already lost its grandfather status, and yet your company has no intention of cancelling your insurance.

The "experts" who wrote this hack piece of shit don't understand even the simplest workings of this program.

Most companies which sponsor insurance for their employees already provide insurance which EXCEEDS the requirements of the ACA. If they made a change to their policies since the enactment of the ACA, they lost their grandfather status. That DOES NOT automatically imply they will suddenly decide to stop insuring you, and it DOES NOT automatically mean they fall below ACA standards.

Go to your HR department. Don't take the word of Faux News, for chrissakes.

Here is the link to the Federal Register: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2010-06-17/pdf/2010-14488.pdf

Read it, and see for yourselves.

Under this assumption, the Departments’ mid-range estimate is that
66 percent of small employer plans and 45 percent of large employer plans will
relinquish their grandfather status by the end of 2013. The low-end estimates
are for 49 percent and 34 percent of small and large employer plans,
respectively, to have relinquished grandfather status, and the high-end
estimates are 80 percent and 64 percent, respectively.

The words "cancel" nor "cancelled" appear anywhere in the Register.

Here is what Fox News just claimed:

In fact, according to the Federal Register, its mid-range estimate was that by the end of 2014, 76 percent of small group plans would be cancelled, along with 55 percent of large employer plans.

You now can see Fox News lied. Flat out lied.

Stop regurgitating the piss of hack media outlets, or else you deserve to be lied to as much as a reader of the National Enquirer, and are just as gullible.

LOL.( Sarcastic) Do you really think the White House would actually USE the words 'cancel' or 'cancelled"?
And just what do you think is going to happen when the mandate which has been delayed, kicks in? Or course those previously grandfathered policies will have to be cancelled because they do not meet the mandates. The fact is the mandates are by design.
The way PPACA was written was to force as many people onto the exchanges as possible.
That's by design.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I've said every time this bullshit meme comes up, GO TALK TO YOUR HR DEPARTMENT.

Don't just take my word for it.

Most of you will find your company lost its grandfather status a while ago, just as the Obama adminstration predicted would happen by the END OF 2013.

And yet your company has not cancelled your insurance, and has no intention of doing so, unlike the lie Fox News is feeding you. 80 million people are not walking around having lost their insurance from their employer.

Nice try. You are leaving out an important fact.That is because the employer mandate has been delayed, employers can hang on to their policies.
Once the mandate kicks in, all bets are off.

 

[thereisnospoon]

So Fox News is lying? Right. How about Forbes, CNN, the New York Times or The National Review among many others. Why do liberals always lie? It is easy to google the story and get the real facts, but libtards would rather lie like their Messiah. Here is another source saying exactly the same thing.


In 2010, Administration Predicted 'Majority' of Employer-Based Health Plans Would Disappear | National Review Online

Show me the New York Times and CNN reporting this.

Why? Is it your belief that because CNN and the NYT are lib bias they have credibility and Fox has none?
Cut the fuckin bullshit.

 

[thereisnospoon]

So Fox News is lying? Right. How about Forbes, CNN, the New York Times or The National Review among many others. Why do liberals always lie? It is easy to google the story and get the real facts, but libtards would rather lie like their Messiah. Here is another source saying exactly the same thing.


In 2010, Administration Predicted 'Majority' of Employer-Based Health Plans Would Disappear | National Review Online

Show me the New York Times and CNN reporting this.

Almost 80 million with employer health care plans could have coverage canceled, experts predict | Fox News

It could be assumed that due to the left wing bias of the NYT and other news outlets they have avoided the story.
If Fox and the national review have made up the story, there would have been repercussions already.
None have surfaced.
Why is that? The only howls of protest are from those whop are pissed because the PPACA's flaws have been exposed.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Losing grandfather status means plans are not acceptable to the government.

Wrong.

You have no clue.

Losing grandfather status means they changed their policy to the point it is no longer the one which was grandfathered. It does not automatically mean they do not meet the ACA minimum standards.

Bitter clinger.

 

[thereisnospoon]

g5000...I'm done. People can read the OP's story. There can read the National review story. Here is a link from a google search of hundreds of stories from reputable news outlets all saying the same thing. Enormous millions will lose their employer based coverage. (I provided this because either you cannot read or do not know how to use a search engine).


https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...0.0.0.0.78.78.1.1.0...0.0...1ac.2.SwPxAgSzHPA

Don't you get it? Any news source that reports anything contrary to Obamacare is reporting a lie.
Obamacare is a panacea. Infallible.
Obama and his minions message to the people is "you will comply without question".

 

[Vox]

This is by design. Obamacare was written with one major flaw. That is if the projected number of participants falls short, the program cannot work. So, the law includes the fine, but the fine was deliberately set lower than the cost to insure.

well, one certainly understands that setting the fine so low is a deliberate move to make the employers drop their insurance ( and if it doesn't work - to make them by excise tax of 40%) - in order to push as many people as possible onto the exchanges, but.

the major flaw is ( from the law standpoint) - inability to predict how many healthy individuals from those dropped will actually sign through the exchanges ( some might simply go to private market, which much more abundant) or just forgo insurance altogether.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I've checked that out and am looking into an intermediary way of offering health insurance to my employees by circumventing the aca. I've hired legal counsel and so far its looks like it may be possible. Im about to cross the threshold of 50.

Your lawyer may have problems. The word I am getting is that the lack of case law and other court decisions is so bad that hard numbers on different options don't really exist yet. Because compliant non-exchange policies and different ways of running compliant medical care has not yet made it through the courts moving what operations you can to a non-compliant state and using a labor contractor at all sites is probably the safety play until the situation clears up.

That's possible too WW. I'm going to have to set a limit on his billable hours. Hell, he could string me on for months. Lol. In the interim, I'll be dropping coverages and cutting hours, once I hit 50 employees, to avoid the dilemma. The whole fiasco sucks.

For a moment, consider not going beyond 49 employees. How would this affect your company?

 

[thereisnospoon]

Show me the New York Times and CNN reporting this.

We don't need to see that. The FEDERAL REGISTER includes that information.

Back in 2010, the Obama Administration estimated that millions of plans would lose the grandfathered status, making all of Obama's keep your plan statements utter lies.

% of Employer Plans losing grandfathered status in 2013:

Low estimate: 39%
Mid estimate: 51%
High estimate: 69%

The Magnitude of the Lie | The Blog on Obama: White House Dossier


If Obama had told the truth, it is highly likely he would not be President today. He lied to get reelected - and even worse, led a scheme to defraud American citizens.

Another idiot who does not know the difference between losing grandfather status and CANCELLING POLICIES.

For purposes unknown to the rest of us, you are hung up on this single issue.
Meanwhile the reality is that because the mandate has been delayed until 10/1/2014, it does not matter.
Business will not do anything with their coverage until the government forces them to do something.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Was hoping g would have answered this.

no, he is an obamabot.

it's like a broken record

I have answered it. You are wrong. A cancellation of a policy does not automatically follow from losing grandfather status.

I'm dealing with a bunch of ignorant rubes who don't know the difference.

Yes. Once again, in his arrogance a lib has stated he is right and everyone else is wrong.
You said so yourself. I'm dealing with a bunch of ignorant rubes.

 

[Amelia]

Wrong.

You have no clue.

Losing grandfather status means they changed their policy to the point it is no longer the one which was grandfathered. It does not automatically mean they do not meet the ACA minimum standards.

Right. So what happens to that plan that is no longer grandfathered?

If it already exceeds the ACA standards, NOTHING happens to your insurance. A shit ton of companies have already lost their grandfather status and it affects them going forward not at all.

Ask your HR department.

It was the loss of grandfather status which is predicted in the register. NOT cancellations. That's two different things.

It's cause and effect. O-care caused and is causing loss and/or significant altering of policies in both the individual and employer markets. Semantic games are insulting and do not help O-care defenders to look honest.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Changed =/= cancelled.

I see you are very selective in what you will answer.
\
The ONLY reason my plan will get changed (and probably cost more in the process) is because my firm follows my industry lead and since we're a multi million dollar a year firm, the higher ups will shift the plan to a compliant one. The current plan is still cancelled.

You really are engaged in a game of sophistry, dude.

Not everyone is going to be as licky as me. If you call having to pay a lot more for coverage you dont need as lucky.

So like I said, you will end up with BETTER coverage. Not NO insurance, as this bogus 80 million claim implies.


Three things happen when an employer loses their grandfather status.

1) Nothing. Many companies have already lost their grandfather status, as predicted in the Register. But since their policies exceed the minimum standards of the ACA, this loss is insignificant and has no effect on their business practice going forward.

2) Cancellation. Some companies provide insurance which is below the ACA standards. Upon losing their grandfather status, they will be required to offer insurance which does meet the standards. They may choose instead to just cancel their plans and pay the penalties. These penalties will be applied to subsidies for their employees who will now get their insurance from health insurance exchanges. These new policies will have better coverage than what they used to have.

3) Better coverage provided to employees. Some companies provide insurance which is below the ACA standards. Upon losing their grandfather status, they will be required to offer insurance which does meet the standards. They may choose to do this.


And that is why "losing grandfather status" does not automatically mean "will cancel their insurance plans".

You fall under option 3, TakeAStepBack. You did not lose your insurance. You got better coverage insurance! And that is the actual intent of ObamaCare.

And yes, better is going to be more expensive. But it is a lie to say you lost your insurance. The only sophistry going on is you trying to say improved covered counts as "cancelled".



What is being left out of the picture is the many other employers who currently do not provide any insurance whatsoever. They are not grandfathered because they did not have an insurance plan to begin with. These companies will either have to start providing insurance or pay a penalty.



The end result, as was seen in Massachusetts, will be a larger percentage of employers providing health insurance.

Why are you arguing for this so strongly? What's in it for you?

 

[Amelia]

g, what does 'lose grandfather status' mean?

it means the cancellation of the policies you like.

But don't expect the obamabots to admit it.

Now he claims "as the administration predicted it" - but the administration LIED all the way up yo October 1 "if you like your plan -you will keep it ".

And I can bet during those years all obamabots, including g were singing the same tune

No its just cancelation of policies that you like and dislike. You seem to keep forgetting that the reason the US went this route is because people in general were being fucked in the ass by their health insurance

No, people in general were not being effed in the a by their health insurance. A small percentage of people were. People in general had decent insurance. This insurance "reform" will in many cases result in people getting less care because it's making people have to foot more of the bill for their care -- which was part of the design. Higher deductibles translate to fewer people taking advantage of the insurance they're paying for.

 

[Oldstyle]

But its possible all those things can and will happen so stop telling half the story if you want to look the least bit credible

So the best you've got at this point, Closed...is that it's "possible" that the millions of Americans that will be losing their healthcare coverage will like their ACA alternative? Sorry to point out the obvious here but isn't also "possible" that they won't like or be able to afford that new ACA alternative? How did we pass something that we don't have a clue what it's going to do? Who was in charge of this fiasco...and why did they press ahead with something that was so obviously flawed?

Sure possible means something can happen leaving the door open for events to occur. What you do is try to predict the future "Its gonna be baaaaad" and then invite everyone to all tremble at your predictions that are take out any possibility that is good.

Its leading the witness tactic.

Yes millions may like it, Millions may save....You keep leaving that out to make it more scary.

Any program that affects 300 million people will have flaws. Where do you come from where everything is perfect and nothing needs changing or adjusting?

Of course you set the bar so high that any problems are taken as a TOTAL FAILURE! Why? Because that's how sensationalism works....stop being a drama queen

Sigh, I've said repeatedly that there are winners and losers with the ACA...if you're one of the people getting big subsidies on your premiums or one of the people who's insurance was through the roof before because of a preexisting condition then you're going to LOVE ObamaCare! If you're a healthy Middle Class person, then you're going to HATE ObamaCare because the cost of your health care is going to be a lot more than it used to be in order to pay for those OTHER people! That wasn't how this legislation was SOLD to the American people though...was it? We were promised over and over again by this President...by Nancy Pelosi...by Harry Reid...that if you had a health plan that you liked...you could keep that health plan! We were assured that the average Middle Class family of four could expect to save about $2,500 a year on their health care premiums. Both of those things were MAJOR lies, Closed!!! I mean those three people looked us full in the face on coast to coast TV and lied their collective asses off!!!

So now ObamaCare is being rolled out and it's EXACTLY what I've said it was going to be for the past five years...and how do you progressives respond? You tell me that I'm setting the bar too high and being a drama queen. You know what, Closed? It's YOU FOLKS that set the bar where it is with all the promises that you made about how this would work and now you're whining because people are speaking up and saying "Hey, this ISN'T what you said it would be!!!"

 

[Amelia]

O-care was a huge lie but we're all supposed to rally around now and help the country forget that Democrat behavior was the antithesis of democratic.

And we're not supposed to lament how expensive this abuse of democratic principles is going to turn out to be.

And don't even think about the people whose identity is going to be stolen by the O-care machine.

Et cetera.

Utterly disgusting.