A scenario for WW2 history buffs: What if?

[hoosier88]

Whitehall's nonsense begins without the beginning: Japan's occupation of Korea, Japan's continuing invasion and war with China, and then only after Japan's occupation of Indo-China, does the USA embargo oil and other goods.

Whitehall would have done the same thing in the same situation: occupy Korea, war against China, and occupy Indo-China.

Are we even on the same page? Yeah Japan was an evil empire and FDR wanted desperately to get into the "real war" in Europe. The best you can say for FDR's responsibility for the disaster at Pearl Harbor is incompetence squared and the worst you can say is the "T" word. Nobody dared criticize the administration back then and we are living with the cozy relationship between FDR and the media that passes for history today.

(My bold)

You can go back & look @ newspaper & radio coverage of FDR's foreign policy, the Jewish question, deathcamps, Pearl Harbor, WWII - there was a lot of second-guessing, from ultranationalists, Naazi sympathizers, some R. Catholicism (Italy, Rome, Vatican), anti-Communists.

The media these days - especially the electronic - are mostly conglomerates, with the media segment a poor-relation to the principal line of business. The 5-7 conglomerates that own most of the US mass e-media are not liberal, they are mostly pro-business. Which means they are pro-MIC as a safe cashcow. They are for an interventionist foreign policy, they are for military/intelligence intervention as business interests are perceived to be threatened.

Even the slight whiff of moderation on Prexy Obama is enough to set the rabid hounds baying for him.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Any advancement that the germans put out that could have delayed us about 1 year, would have put nuke bombs and maybe missiles in their arsenal.

And that would have been a game changer.

but

2 more ships may have extended the war a tiny bit, giving Japan a few months more before the end.

They could never have gotten an atomic weapon, considering that the head of their A-bomb research (Heisenberg) was actively sabotaging it!

 

[Unkotare]

Perhaps a week is devoted to WWII and that would be about five hours. Then too, many classes never even get to WWII, and there is a joke as the school is being let out for the summer and the teacher yelling at the departing class "By the way we won WWII."

You must have gone to one seriously shitty high school.

 

[Toronado3800]

It is no more military intelligence failure equivalent to Bush's failure for reasons to invade Iraq and MacArthur's failure to listen to the warning the Red Chinese PLA was coming into the war to kick American butt.

The only treason here is that of whitehall who refuses to accept objective evidence that FDR and the military establishment were responsible for negligence, not treason.

Bush had permission from congress to invade Iraq to enforce UN sanctions. Harry Truman sent Troops to Korea on an executive order and 55,000 were killed in three years. Japan was a formidable enemy before war broke out but the racists (in the truest sense of the word) in the FDR administration thought Japan was a push over and the US was criminally unprepared for the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Hey, given what a monster Stalin was Containment and the Domino effect were all the rage.

Now you hippies might not care if S. Korea went Communist but the Congress if Joe McCarthy definately did.

 

[regent]

Perhaps a week is devoted to WWII and that would be about five hours. Then too, many classes never even get to WWII, and there is a joke as the school is being let out for the summer and the teacher yelling at the departing class "By the way we won WWII."

You must have gone to one seriously shitty high school.

Left high school at the end of my ninth year.

 

[whitehall]

It is no more military intelligence failure equivalent to Bush's failure for reasons to invade Iraq and MacArthur's failure to listen to the warning the Red Chinese PLA was coming into the war to kick American butt.

The only treason here is that of whitehall who refuses to accept objective evidence that FDR and the military establishment were responsible for negligence, not treason.

Bush had permission from congress to invade Iraq to enforce UN sanctions. Harry Truman sent Troops to Korea on an executive order and 55,000 were killed in three years. Japan was a formidable enemy before war broke out but the racists (in the truest sense of the word) in the FDR administration thought Japan was a push over and the US was criminally unprepared for the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Hey, given what a monster Stalin was Containment and the Domino effect were all the rage.

Now you hippies might not care if S. Korea went Communist but the Congress if Joe McCarthy definately did.

The myth of "feisty give-em hell Harry" was a creation of the fawning media. In fact Truman was a timid little former clothing store owner with limited education that democrats hand picked when they knew the corpse they were running for a 4th term would not live too much longer. Truman was afraid to confront his own general who he appointed to run the Korean conflict. MacArthur lived in a palace in Japan and never spent a single night in Korea during the time he was commanding general. When Truman wanted to have a conference about the military Mac said he was too busy to travel to Washington so Truman was forced to meet him at Wake Is. MacArthur showed up in a rumpled uniform and disrespected the president by not saluting. Truman ignored it and signed off on the insane plan to "unify the entire peninsula" with exhausted ill-equipped Troops with winter approaching. The Chinese were not yet in the conflict and they warned the US that they would help the NK if the US approached the Yalu river. MacArthur took his giggling platoon of reporters on a joy ride to the Yalu and pointed out how peaceful it was. Indications are that several divisions of Communist Chinese were camouflaged under the snow cover. American Troops walked into the biggest ambush in history while MacArthur's idiot intelligence officer was sending only reports that he knew the general liked.

 

[regent]

Bush had permission from congress to invade Iraq to enforce UN sanctions. Harry Truman sent Troops to Korea on an executive order and 55,000 were killed in three years. Japan was a formidable enemy before war broke out but the racists (in the truest sense of the word) in the FDR administration thought Japan was a push over and the US was criminally unprepared for the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Hey, given what a monster Stalin was Containment and the Domino effect were all the rage.

Now you hippies might not care if S. Korea went Communist but the Congress if Joe McCarthy definately did.

The myth of "feisty give-em hell Harry" was a creation of the fawning media. In fact Truman was a timid little former clothing store owner with limited education that democrats hand picked when they knew the corpse they were running for a 4th term would not live too much longer. Truman was afraid to confront his own general who he appointed to run the Korean conflict. MacArthur lived in a palace in Japan and never spent a single night in Korea during the time he was commanding general. When Truman wanted to have a conference about the military Mac said he was too busy to travel to Washington so Truman was forced to meet him at Wake Is. MacArthur showed up in a rumpled uniform and disrespected the president by not saluting. Truman ignored it and signed off on the insane plan to "unify the entire peninsula" with exhausted ill-equipped Troops with winter approaching. The Chinese were not yet in the conflict and they warned the US that they would help the NK if the US approached the Yalu river. MacArthur took his giggling platoon of reporters on a joy ride to the Yalu and pointed out how peaceful it was. Indications are that several divisions of Communist Chinese were camouflaged under the snow cover. American Troops walked into the biggest ambush in history while MacArthur's idiot intelligence officer was sending only reports that he knew the general liked.

FDR didn't fire MacArthur and didn't leave him on Corregidor, so who fired MacArthur?

 

[beagle9]

I could only offer a guess and that would be that German scientists were directed to focus elsewhere.

Including their engineers also... Hitler failed in his endeavor I think, because he became obsessed with murdering the Jews, and any others who were his so called political enemies at that time. If he would have just given the Jews a one way ticket to Jerusalem on an ocean liner or two and/or maybe three what ever it would have taken, and this once he had defeated Poland, then who knows what would have happened if he were a humanitarian in that respect during war time, but when you anger God, it's a no win situation for you once that happens, and that is exactly what Hitler and his idiot hit men did. The German regular military, navy and citizen people went along with the propaganda they were fed by Hitler's Reich, along with him being part of that tragic situation also, and they all soon found out that they had been duped by a tyrant dictator & his henchmen who were of the worst kind in that nation (Drunken with power). You can't murder hundreds of thousands of people, and think you are going to walk away scott free from it, and that is what the Nazi's did as a resolve within their quest of dominating Europe at the time. I feel so sorry for the ones whom tried to end Hitler's reign from within, just like with what the Desert Fox and others tried to do (or) where others had participated in a botched operation called Valkyrie, in which they all at different times tried to do Hitler in once figured this tyrant/dictator out. May they all rest in peace, and may justice be brought before their very own eyes come the great judgment, in which will be conducted by God upon these murderers in the end. God Bless the German people whom had been liberated by a world power against a mad man and his mad men who had held them and that nation hostage by their dictates, and for which destroyed them and their nation in the end due to their foolishness and devilishness.

I really do like the story on the Bismarck, and I have been watching all the YouTube videos on the awesome power of that ship, it's just ashamed that it was built in Germany under Hitler at the time..

 

[whitehall]

Hey, given what a monster Stalin was Containment and the Domino effect were all the rage.

Now you hippies might not care if S. Korea went Communist but the Congress if Joe McCarthy definately did.

The myth of "feisty give-em hell Harry" was a creation of the fawning media. In fact Truman was a timid little former clothing store owner with limited education that democrats hand picked when they knew the corpse they were running for a 4th term would not live too much longer. Truman was afraid to confront his own general who he appointed to run the Korean conflict. MacArthur lived in a palace in Japan and never spent a single night in Korea during the time he was commanding general. When Truman wanted to have a conference about the military Mac said he was too busy to travel to Washington so Truman was forced to meet him at Wake Is. MacArthur showed up in a rumpled uniform and disrespected the president by not saluting. Truman ignored it and signed off on the insane plan to "unify the entire peninsula" with exhausted ill-equipped Troops with winter approaching. The Chinese were not yet in the conflict and they warned the US that they would help the NK if the US approached the Yalu river. MacArthur took his giggling platoon of reporters on a joy ride to the Yalu and pointed out how peaceful it was. Indications are that several divisions of Communist Chinese were camouflaged under the snow cover. American Troops walked into the biggest ambush in history while MacArthur's idiot intelligence officer was sending only reports that he knew the general liked.

FDR didn't fire MacArthur and didn't leave him on Corregidor, so who fired MacArthur?

FDR rescued MacArthur from Corrigadore and fixed it so the general was awarded the MOH in about the shortest most embarrassing political orientated citation in history. Truman finally fired MacArthur after the (crazy?) old WW1 general started making crazy threats about using the A-bomb on China.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Any advancement that the germans put out that could have delayed us about 1 year, would have put nuke bombs and maybe missiles in their arsenal.

And that would have been a game changer.

but

2 more ships may have extended the war a tiny bit, giving Japan a few months more before the end.

They could never have gotten an atomic weapon, considering that the head of their A-bomb research (Heisenberg) was actively sabotaging it!

nazis had a weird thing going on; paranoid and arrogant. They suspected everyone not in power

oh, the irony

 

[Unkotare]

Perhaps a week is devoted to WWII and that would be about five hours. Then too, many classes never even get to WWII, and there is a joke as the school is being let out for the summer and the teacher yelling at the departing class "By the way we won WWII."

You must have gone to one seriously shitty high school.

Left high school at the end of my ninth year.

What a surprise...

 

[regent]

You must have gone to one seriously shitty high school.

Left high school at the end of my ninth year.

What a surprise...

Next school was the university. Play poker much?

 

[Unkotare]

Congratulations on your GED.

 

[beagle9]

Congratulations on your GED.

What's with the discrimination against GED's or people who are naturally born smart that is now going on in this country these days? Do people not realize that there are people for whom are simply born smart, and then excel in such smartness without having to have so much help as needed by the state, in which is typically involved in the early on process of learning them or maybe not as it is all depending on the person involved or the people involved in this process ?

It could be that schools & government more and more these days are being rejected due to all there twisted control tendencies in which they have, along with their realized brainwashing powers being noticed more and more, and so I say that they may be actually turning naturally born smart people more and more against them, instead of these schools and government drawing them more towards them in a far more free sort of way, or by their own free will in which they will either stay or they will leave early on by their own free will. This should be ok, yet it just all depends as I said before "upon who the person is that is smart enough to be ahead of the game or maybe not thus needing more continued help in life from the system".

If they leave, then they are smart enough to make it, even though the system tries to make it where they can't make it these days it seems more and more, and this appears to be happening against such people via people in power who are actively discriminating against them in these ways now (i.e. the case of media carrying on in these ways against Snowden lately). The government is just working towards more and more control, and that is the bottom line when one gets right down to it, and it has it's machine in full swing promoting this kind of activity and/or is fomenting it against the free citizen.

Even though highly intelligent, these smart ones are now finding that they "need their papers" in order to gain access more and more these days or to be considered a good American, so they try and get them just to satisfy the system in which will discriminate against them if they don't, but what is this telling the nation now ?

Funny how so many millionaires have been created in this nation within the past, and this by ones own intellect either operating outside the system (free market place) or even within the system (government run), but the system is determined to control them more and more it seems, and to then take credit for what they (the student) already had known anyway, and even to control the person born already with the smarts who knows what is going on therefore refusing to reward those who had failed them in life, and so they strike out on their own in order to show the system just how much it had failed them, instead of rewarding (the system) for it's failures instead.

 

[Unkotare]

Congratulations on your GED.

What's with the discrimination against GED's or people who are naturally born smart that is now going on in this country these days? Do people not realize that there are people for whom are simply born smart, and then excel in such smartness without having to have so much help as needed by the state, in which is typically involved in the early on process of learning them or maybe not as it is all depending on the person involved or the people involved in this process ?

It could be that schools & government more and more these days are being rejected due to all there twisted control tendencies in which they have, along with their realized brainwashing powers being noticed more and more, and so I say that they may be actually turning naturally born smart people more and more against them, instead of these schools and government drawing them more towards them in a far more free sort of way, or by their own free will in which they will either stay or they will leave early on by their own free will. This should be ok, yet it just all depends as I said before "upon who the person is that is smart enough to be ahead of the game or maybe not thus needing more continued help in life from the system".

If they leave, then they are smart enough to make it, even though the system tries to make it where they can't make it these days it seems more and more, and this appears to be happening against such people via people in power who are actively discriminating against them in these ways now (i.e. the case of media carrying on in these ways against Snowden lately). The government is just working towards more and more control, and that is the bottom line when one gets right down to it, and it has it's machine in full swing promoting this kind of activity and/or is fomenting it against the free citizen.

Even though highly intelligent, these smart ones are now finding that they "need their papers" in order to gain access more and more these days or to be considered a good American, so they try and get them just to satisfy the system in which will discriminate against them if they don't, but what is this telling the nation now ?

Funny how so many millionaires have been created in this nation within the past, and this by ones own intellect either operating outside the system (free market place) or even within the system (government run), but the system is determined to control them more and more it seems, and to then take credit for what they (the student) already had known anyway, and even to control the person born already with the smarts who knows what is going on therefore refusing to reward those who had failed them in life, and so they strike out on their own in order to show the system just how much it had failed them, instead of rewarding (the system) for it's failures instead.

So, dropping out of school and eventually managing a GED is now proof of being "naturally smart"? I see..........








How old were you when you dropped out?

 

[beagle9]

Congratulations on your GED.

What's with the discrimination against GED's or people who are naturally born smart that is now going on in this country these days? Do people not realize that there are people for whom are simply born smart, and then excel in such smartness without having to have so much help as needed by the state, in which is typically involved in the early on process of learning them or maybe not as it is all depending on the person involved or the people involved in this process ?

It could be that schools & government more and more these days are being rejected due to all there twisted control tendencies in which they have, along with their realized brainwashing powers being noticed more and more, and so I say that they may be actually turning naturally born smart people more and more against them, instead of these schools and government drawing them more towards them in a far more free sort of way, or by their own free will in which they will either stay or they will leave early on by their own free will. This should be ok, yet it just all depends as I said before "upon who the person is that is smart enough to be ahead of the game or maybe not thus needing more continued help in life from the system".

If they leave, then they are smart enough to make it, even though the system tries to make it where they can't make it these days it seems more and more, and this appears to be happening against such people via people in power who are actively discriminating against them in these ways now (i.e. the case of media carrying on in these ways against Snowden lately). The government is just working towards more and more control, and that is the bottom line when one gets right down to it, and it has it's machine in full swing promoting this kind of activity and/or is fomenting it against the free citizen.

Even though highly intelligent, these smart ones are now finding that they "need their papers" in order to gain access more and more these days or to be considered a good American, so they try and get them just to satisfy the system in which will discriminate against them if they don't, but what is this telling the nation now ?

Funny how so many millionaires have been created in this nation within the past, and this by ones own intellect either operating outside the system (free market place) or even within the system (government run), but the system is determined to control them more and more it seems, and to then take credit for what they (the student) already had known anyway, and even to control the person born already with the smarts who knows what is going on therefore refusing to reward those who had failed them in life, and so they strike out on their own in order to show the system just how much it had failed them, instead of rewarding (the system) for it's failures instead.

So, dropping out of school and eventually managing a GED is now proof of being "naturally smart"? I see..........








How old were you when you dropped out?

What, you gathering info for the government maybe ? LOL..

Oh, so if I try and stand up for these naturally born smart people in life, and I do this for all whom decided for themselves next, that they need not to be conformed or contained by a system that is something they may not like or did not get at the time because it was to simple, where as they finally found themselves to be smarter than or as smart as the system in which was supposed to learn them, and so they moved on freely to bigger and better things, and that somehow is a bad thing ? How about if they left it all for bigger and better things, and got those bigger and better things before anyone else did ? So you figure I must be one of those "smart ones", is that what your saying or thinking here ? No I wasn't that smart, so I stayed on till the end unfortunately...LOL

 

[Unkotare]

What's with the discrimination against GED's or people who are naturally born smart that is now going on in this country these days? Do people not realize that there are people for whom are simply born smart, and then excel in such smartness without having to have so much help as needed by the state, in which is typically involved in the early on process of learning them or maybe not as it is all depending on the person involved or the people involved in this process ?

It could be that schools & government more and more these days are being rejected due to all there twisted control tendencies in which they have, along with their realized brainwashing powers being noticed more and more, and so I say that they may be actually turning naturally born smart people more and more against them, instead of these schools and government drawing them more towards them in a far more free sort of way, or by their own free will in which they will either stay or they will leave early on by their own free will. This should be ok, yet it just all depends as I said before "upon who the person is that is smart enough to be ahead of the game or maybe not thus needing more continued help in life from the system".

If they leave, then they are smart enough to make it, even though the system tries to make it where they can't make it these days it seems more and more, and this appears to be happening against such people via people in power who are actively discriminating against them in these ways now (i.e. the case of media carrying on in these ways against Snowden lately). The government is just working towards more and more control, and that is the bottom line when one gets right down to it, and it has it's machine in full swing promoting this kind of activity and/or is fomenting it against the free citizen.

Even though highly intelligent, these smart ones are now finding that they "need their papers" in order to gain access more and more these days or to be considered a good American, so they try and get them just to satisfy the system in which will discriminate against them if they don't, but what is this telling the nation now ?

Funny how so many millionaires have been created in this nation within the past, and this by ones own intellect either operating outside the system (free market place) or even within the system (government run), but the system is determined to control them more and more it seems, and to then take credit for what they (the student) already had known anyway, and even to control the person born already with the smarts who knows what is going on therefore refusing to reward those who had failed them in life, and so they strike out on their own in order to show the system just how much it had failed them, instead of rewarding (the system) for it's failures instead.

So, dropping out of school and eventually managing a GED is now proof of being "naturally smart"? I see..........








How old were you when you dropped out?

What, you gathering info for the government maybe ? LOL..

Oh, so if I try and stand up for these naturally born smart people in life,

Your conclusion is illogical.

 

[Glendower]

I read a bit about WW2 and think about this quite offten, (I wont make this long and sorry for any typos) What if the Germans managed too, Launch the Bismark her sister ship and the Aircraft carrier they were trying to build.....in the same fleet on the same day? Could the Allies have destroyed it before it would have run heck in the Atlantic shipping lanes? Could have an escort carrier fleet stood up to it? just curious what you all think.....

The European Theater was not a good venue for naval power. Too vulnerable to land based air attacks. Battleships were obsolete and a single carrier would have been sunk by subs or land based air attacks

(My bold)

I disagree. The ETO was excellent for naval power, especially for the Allies early on. We beat Rommel in Africa on logistics, his supply lines - naval & air - never delivered as promised, because Allied naval forces & land-based air kept kept hammering his supply lines. Even the relatively short run from Italy-Sicily-Tunisia was littered with the gutted wrecks of German merchantmen & aircraft.

The Brits also bottled up/destroyed French naval assets in the Mediterranean, & the Allied navy @ the invasion of Africa destroyed whatever French naval units refused to go neutral.

The key to this was that the Brits managed (by the skin of their teeth) to hold on to Malta. It's location allowed it to become for all practical purposes an unsinkable Aircraft Carrier which was in range of much of Italy and Western North Africa, and the shipping routes in the Western Med.

 

[JakeStarkey]

FDR rescued MacArthur from Corrigadore and fixed it so the general was awarded the MOH in about the shortest most embarrassing political orientated citation in history. Truman finally fired MacArthur after the (crazy?) old WW1 general started making crazy threats about using the A-bomb on China.

MacArthur woefully miscalculated the defense of Philippines and tens of thousands of soldiers suffered horribly for it. Nonetheless, as a propaganda ploy and a military decision, sending M to Australia was a correct move, as he led a masterful advance in the southwest using naval, air, and ground forces to defeat a force twice his size and recapturing the Philippines.

Truman was supported by the Congress and authorized by the UN to send forces to Korea. MacArthur was fired because he became publicly insubordinate.

 

[bendog]

Well, yeah it'd have made a difference. But, the brit's pretty much squandered two of their pre-war aircraft carriers. Glorious was sunk by surface fire after detaching itself from heavy surface ships and going slow, and Courageous was sunk when it was doing anti-submarine patrols, which coincidentally proved fatal to the USS Wasp, and were no longer used after bitter experience.

And had the Germans rushed with the Tirpitz, the brits might have done the same with Duke of York.

I think you can make a better case for altering the war's outcome if you hypothesize that Hitler screwed the pooch in putting resources into the heavy surface units rather than UBoats