Johnson A libertarian view of "oppressive justice" on the streets.

Discussion in 'Gary Johnson' started by flacaltenn, Jul 21, 2016.

  1. flacaltenn
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    flacaltenn Senior Mod Staff Member Senior USMB Moderator Gold Supporting Member

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    I do believe that's not true of Libertarian leadership like Johnson/Weld. At least they'll BE a fight over Patriot and that facility. Libertarians would NOT WASTE an expenditure like that. We would just re-purpose it.

    Say into a facility that spies on the bureaucratic minion of morons in D.C. Would be fitting justice.
     
  2. AnCap'n_Murica
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    AnCap'n_Murica Gold Member

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    That's embracing the state, not letting it go. Spite will be your undoing.
     
  3. mamooth
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    mamooth Gold Member Supporting Member

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    Performance based incentives like ... getting a cut of the fines? It seems performance based incentives are what caused the problem.

    Instead of the vague handwaving and happy buzzwords, how about some specific proposals? Tell us exactly what performance-based incentives you're talking about.

    I do. You, however, don't seem to realize that, being how you seem to think only libertarians are capable of making government work better, for reasons which you can't explain.

    Ah, the "fewer laws, more lawsuits!" philosophy that works well, so long as you're rich enough to afford a lawyer.

    You're blaming it on .... unions? Seriously?

    Can you? Fewer evasions, less special pleading about how morally pure libertarians are, and more actual policy, please.
     
  4. mamooth
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    mamooth Gold Member Supporting Member

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    I'm recommending a system that would fund all parties equally, and rather than address that, you're telling me what I really believe. Another strawman, what a surprise.

    You oppose the one thing that would actually make the libertarians competitive. It's as if you want to remain irrelevant, because winning would mean you'd have to do actual work and demonstrate that your claims of having all the answers weren't just hot air. Preaching from the ivory tower is so much easier. Those of us working down in the mud are just so impure, no wonder you turn up your nose at us.
     
  5. Iceweasel
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    Iceweasel Diamond Member

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    Government shouldn't fund campaigns, period. There's nothing stopping people from funding libertarians, the green party, communist or whatever. How much public money did Trump spend?

    As far as the OP I don't see how law enforcement is supposed to operate on an economic sliding scale. Sure a $200 fine will hit a poor person harder that one that isn't but there is also community service if you can't pay, been there done that.

    The problem with government is it becomes a haven for income and benefits, the work is secondary, if that. Yesterday, coming back from a job, five city guys were watching another city guy shovel some dirt. Three trucks, light bars going. How much did that cost? It's out of control and we have examples all over here and overseas what happens next.
     
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  6. AnCap'n_Murica
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    AnCap'n_Murica Gold Member

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    Yeah, the (D)s & (R)s are certain to make that happen!:rolleyes-41:
     
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  7. flacaltenn
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    flacaltenn Senior Mod Staff Member Senior USMB Moderator Gold Supporting Member

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    No Squidward. Getting a "cut of the fines" is as bad as "asset forfeiture laws" that we have consistently ranked high in the list of civil liberties issues. Performance based incentives means REWARDING outstanding work and not so much rewarding of shoddy or mediocre work. And -- it IS the unions that consistently block and stymie that reform. Whether it's straight Civil service union or Teachers. We don't hate unions. I just think they are STILL in the 18th century with a 100 year old concept of what "a job" is -- or a career. Help the unions to offer CAREERS and not jobs and maybe everyone gets want they want.


    On THIS topic particularly -- I want to EXTEND the ability to block legal actions that would ruin people's lives in cases where the "crime" is disproportionate to the economic impact it would have on them. Work it out along different paths of restitution. When people are charged falsely and lose their jobs because of it -- there should be compensation. Make govt THINK about the life consequences to the poor. The entire interaction in these communities would improve astronomically. And the MISTAKES would go way down.
     
  8. C_Clayton_Jones
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    C_Clayton_Jones Diamond Member

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    "...there was also the fallacy that minorities were calling for more government. So there's that fallacy too."

    Correct, a straw man fallacy; and the thread premise fails as a consequence.
     
  9. flacaltenn
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    flacaltenn Senior Mod Staff Member Senior USMB Moderator Gold Supporting Member

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    One of significant results that came out of the Fed shakedown of Ferguson was the rampant constant ERRORS and excessive charging of the Muni govt.

    Ferguson Averages 3 Warrants Per Household, New Report Shows

    Michael Brown’s death is currently one of the main sources of tension between police and civilians in Ferguson, Missouri. But a new report may give the city’s residents even more cause to be angry; it suggests Ferguson’s municipal courts are targeting lower-income African-American residents to turn a profit.

    The report from ArchCity Defenders — a legal group that “works to break the cycle of ‘revolving door justice’ in the St. Louis metropolitan area” — reveals that in 2013, “the Ferguson Municipal Court disposed 24,532 warrants and 12,018 cases, or about 3 warrants and 1.5 cases per household.”

    In Ferguson, the “majority (67%) of [the city’s 21,203] residents are African-American” and “22% of residents live below the poverty level,” the report mentions before going on to say:

    Despite Ferguson’s relative poverty, fines and court fees comprise the second largest source of revenue for the city, a total of $2,635,400 [...] According to a court employee, the docket for an average court session may include as many as 1,500 cases. Assuming an 80% conviction rate, the average fine in a case resulting in a guilty verdict would be $275.
    In addition to such heavy legal prosecution, Ferguson and other municipal courts engage in a number of operational procedures that make it even more difficult for defendants to navigate the courts. For example, a Ferguson court employee reported that the bench routinely starts hearing cases 30 minutes before the appointed time and then locks the doors to the building as early as five minutes after the official hour, a practice that could easily lead a defendant arriving even slightly late to receive an additional charge for failure to appear.

    In a blog for Marginal Revolution he writes, in part: “You don’t get $321 in fines and fees and 3 warrants per household from an about-average crime rate. You get numbers like this from bullshit arrests for jaywalking and constant ‘low level harassment involving traffic stops, court appearances, high fines, and the threat of jail for failure to pay.’”

    There is "the disparate cost of contact with legal system" in a city like Ferguson. You wonder WHY the residents were so biased and pissed? Since they LOVE bigger more powerful govt -- their intuition was to call it all racism. When in reality -- it's just the sloppy, inefficient customer service that govt provides.

    When the LEGAL system becomes the 2nd largest source of income for the city -- the city IS NOT earning an honest living. It's a partner in the despair and the decay.

    As far as "sliding scales" --- that's "symptomatic" relief. The REAL relief is in reducing the ridiculous and amazing THREE WARRANTS per household. EVERYONE in that town was sucked into the criminal justice system. Is it any wonder -- it boiled over?

    When the car is impounded --- delay the fine until the court appearance. Give the people a chance a plead. MAYBE -- make the 1st one free or with a lien on any assets. After all -- like you said -- they are likely paying with Govt money anyways. In some form or other. Like if they have an EBT card.

    REVERSE the fine when they are overcharged or falsely put under warrant and arrest. Have the govt write a check for the AMOUNT of the standard judgement -- when they fuck up. It's likely govt money in some form or another anyway. Fine the GOVT for making life ruining mistakes.

    But we should not be on the edge of a race war because of the frustrations of these REAL ABUSES. And govt has to IMPROVE their game -- so that there aren't 3 warrants per household in ANY American community.

     
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    Last edited: Jul 22, 2016
  10. JoeMoma
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    JoeMoma Gold Member

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    You love to throw out the "fallacy" word without backing it up. A Majarity of minority votes going to democrats equates to minorities looking to government for solutions to problems.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 22, 2016

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