A Great Comment on Affirmative Action

[JenyEliza]

private schools are more expensive than public schools for 'free', no? and my point was that students are the biggest factor of a school's success. whites prefer a setting where teachers are permitted to actually teach, rather than spend most of their time trying to keep order in the classroom. unfortunately majority minority classes tend to become raucous and teachers are not allowed to discipline the little angels.

as far as the message being troubling...what about your article that seems to say that a school can only be successful with a sizable portion of white students? why can't minorities do well without the guidance of white students? why can't minority parents make sure their children's schools are run cleanly and effectively without white intervention?

So blacks prevent teachers from teaching simply because they are black?

My article doesn't come anywhere close to saying that and your active dishonesty is expect
ed because you know nothing of value. Hell, you can't even be honest and admit you're active on white supremacist websites. Now use that to hide behind why you cannot defend your racist claims.

black students are more unruly than white students ( on average, of course) and there are more discipline problems in majority minority classrooms. do you disbelieve that?

your article, paragraph after paragraph, talks about how no whites are in their schools and then points out how dreadful schools with names like MLK High are.

In a Seattle neighborhood that I visited in 2002, for instance, where approximately half the families were Caucasian, 95 percent of students at the Thurgood Marshall Elementary School were black, Hispanic, Native American, or of Asian origin. An African-American teacher at the school told me—not with bitterness but wistfully—of seeing clusters of white parents and their children each morning on the corner of a street close to the school, waiting for a bus that took the children to a predominantly white school.

woe is me, my school don't have no toilet paper. but the pretty white school does, fo shur.

I can't imagine white parents allowing that to happen (or at least to continue) in their school. where are the minority parents at the school board meetings? lose the entitlement attitude and get on with the job of providing for your kids!

Hell, you can't even be honest and admit you're active on white supremacist websites.

do you always slander people?

Answer: Yes. Always.

 

[CurveLight]

So blacks prevent teachers from teaching simply because they are black?

My article doesn't come anywhere close to saying that and your active dishonesty is expect
ed because you know nothing of value. Hell, you can't even be honest and admit you're active on white supremacist websites. Now use that to hide behind why you cannot defend your racist claims.

black students are more unruly than white students ( on average, of course) and there are more discipline problems in majority minority classrooms. do you disbelieve that?

your article, paragraph after paragraph, talks about how no whites are in their schools and then points out how dreadful schools with names like MLK High are.



woe is me, my school don't have no toilet paper. but the pretty white school does, fo shur.

I can't imagine white parents allowing that to happen (or at least to continue) in their school. where are the minority parents at the school board meetings? lose the entitlement attitude and get on with the job of providing for your kids!

Hell, you can't even be honest and admit you're active on white supremacist websites.

do you always slander people?

Answer: Yes. Always.

Do you have so many sock accounts that you forgot CurveLight is not one of them?

 

[IanC]

The hypocrisy on AA is overwhelming and shows the established Peck(ing) order of our society. The Legacy and Athletic forms of AA have existed for as long as the Nation but how many people complained about them?

what are the rewards and drawbacks of each of these?

atheletics-- publicity and (lots of ) money on the one hand, takes away spots from real students (although many atheletes are real students) and many student atheletes are cast aside after use on the other hand.

legacy-- money and tradition on the one hand, takes away spots from real students (although most legacy students would qualify anyways) on the other hand.

AA-- diversity?(we are constantly told it is a good thing but I don't see a lot of tangibles except for helping some minorities into the middle class) on the one hand and the cost in money, student spots and most importantly the need to be hypocritical on the other hand.

 

[IanC]

An obscure provision in the 1964 Civil Rights Act called for a study of inequality of opportunity in education "by reason of race, color, religion, or national origin." The general assumption of educators, indeed Coleman's assumption, was that the funding differences between black and white schools would be large, and that these differences would provide the central explanation for unequal achievements of blacks and whites. In 1966, after conducting what was then the second largest social science research project in history-involving 600,000 children in 4,000 schools nationally-Coleman and his colleagues issued Equality of Educational Opportunity. It became, according to journalist Nicholas Lemann, "probably the single best-known piece of quantitative social science in American history," and it contained a number of surprising findings. First, the disparities in funding between schools attended by blacks and whites were far smaller than anticipated. Second, funding was not closely related to achievement; fam ily economic status was far more predictive. Third, a different kind of resource-peers-mattered a great deal. Going to school with middle-class peers was an advantage, while going to school with lower-class peers was a disadvantage, above and beyond an individual's family circumstances.

Today, in public memory, Coleman's report has been largely reduced to the second proposition: that "family matters more than schooling" and that "education spending is unrelated to achievement." But while Coleman found that family background was the central explanation for student achievement, he also believed school inequality made things worse. In the Summer 1966 issue of The Public Interest, [ ] he noted that minority children start first grade behind white peers in reading and math achievement, on average, but they "have an even more serious deficiency at the end of school, which is obviously in part a result of the school." Harvard's Thomas Pettigrew noted: "Never once was it said that schools make no difference. The belief that Coleman hit was the belief that you could make a difference with money."

Although Coleman discovered that expenditures were not closely related to achievement, the report found that a student's achievement appears to be "strongly related to the educational backgrounds and aspirations of the other students in the school.... Children from a given family background, when put in schools of different social compositions, will achieve at quite different levels." Writing in The Public Interest, Coleman was even more forceful: "The educational resources provided by a child's fellow students are more important for his achievement than are the resources provided by the school board." The Coleman Report concluded that "the social composition of the student body is more highly related to achievement, independent of the student's own social background, than is any school factor."

The bad news, Coleman noted in the Harvard Educational Review, was that the characteristics that mattered least (facilities and curriculum) were the most equal between schools attended by blacks and schools attended by whites, while the factor that mattered most (the socioeconomic background of fellow students) was the most unequally distributed. The policy implications were obvious to Coleman: "The results clearly suggest that school integration across socioeconomic lines (and hence across racial lines) will increase Negro achievement, and they throw serious doubt upon the effectiveness of policies designed to increase non-personal resources in the school."

Learning from James Coleman | Public Interest | Find Articles at BNET

 

[IanC]

is that what you wanted to know about the Coleman Report curvelight? like I said; students matter more than the school itself. middle class white (and black) parents know it is better for their children to go to school with other middle class students and to avoid lower class students with lower class attitudes and behaviours. you call it racist, we call it sensible.

 

[CurveLight]

The hypocrisy on AA is overwhelming and shows the established Peck(ing) order of our society. The Legacy and Athletic forms of AA have existed for as long as the Nation but how many people complained about them?

what are the rewards and drawbacks of each of these?

atheletics-- publicity and (lots of ) money on the one hand, takes away spots from real students (although many atheletes are real students) and many student atheletes are cast aside after use on the other hand.

legacy-- money and tradition on the one hand, takes away spots from real students (although most legacy students would qualify anyways) on the other hand.

AA-- diversity?(we are constantly told it is a good thing but I don't see a lot of tangibles except for helping some minorities into the middle class) on the one hand and the cost in money, student spots and most importantly the need to be hypocritical on the other hand.

So AA that doesn't help minorities is acceptable. Yeah. I understood that long ago.

 

[CurveLight]

is that what you wanted to know about the Coleman Report curvelight? like I said; students matter more than the school itself. middle class white (and black) parents know it is better for their children to go to school with other middle class students and to avoid lower class students with lower class attitudes and behaviours. you call it racist, we call it sensible.

Where did the confusion arise? I didn't ask for you to present the opinions from a white supremacist organization about the coleman report. If you can't back up your claims about the coleman report then why even bring it up? Let me give an example of making a claim and backing it up. The economic disparities for funding is still well alive. This is from the study I already linked:

"The present per-pupil spending level in the New York City schools is $11,700, which may be compared with a per-pupil spending level in excess of $22,000 in the well-to-do suburban district of Manhasset, Long Island."


Now, do you have a better source than a Senior Fellow at the white supremacist organization of the Century Foundation or are you totally trapped in a twisted psychotic world of self justified hate?

 

[JenyEliza]

black students are more unruly than white students ( on average, of course) and there are more discipline problems in majority minority classrooms. do you disbelieve that?

your article, paragraph after paragraph, talks about how no whites are in their schools and then points out how dreadful schools with names like MLK High are.



woe is me, my school don't have no toilet paper. but the pretty white school does, fo shur.

I can't imagine white parents allowing that to happen (or at least to continue) in their school. where are the minority parents at the school board meetings? lose the entitlement attitude and get on with the job of providing for your kids!




do you always slander people?

Answer: Yes. Always.

Do you have so many sock accounts that you forgot CurveLight is not one of them?

Another dumbfuck who refers to themself in the Third Person?

OMG....where to these idgits come from?

 

[CurveLight]

Answer: Yes. Always.

Do you have so many sock accounts that you forgot CurveLight is not one of them?

Another dumbfuck who refers to themself in the Third Person?

OMG....where to these idgits come from?

Free english lesson: referencing the ACCOUNT of CurveLight is not the same as the PERSON who opened it. You tried to answer for me and I nixed that attempt.

 

[IanC]

is that what you wanted to know about the Coleman Report curvelight? like I said; students matter more than the school itself. middle class white (and black) parents know it is better for their children to go to school with other middle class students and to avoid lower class students with lower class attitudes and behaviours. you call it racist, we call it sensible.

Where did the confusion arise? I didn't ask for you to present the opinions from a white supremacist organization about the coleman report. If you can't back up your claims about the coleman report then why even bring it up? Let me give an example of making a claim and backing it up. The economic disparities for funding is still well alive. This is from the study I already linked:

"The present per-pupil spending level in the New York City schools is $11,700, which may be compared with a per-pupil spending level in excess of $22,000 in the well-to-do suburban district of Manhasset, Long Island."


Now, do you have a better source than a Senior Fellow at the white supremacist organization of the Century Foundation or are you totally trapped in a twisted psychotic world of self justified hate?

EQUALITY OF EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITY.

there's the link to the Coleman report. point out the fallicies you found in the condensed version of both Coleman reports.

as to the per student spending...doesn't the District of Columbia always top the list and get the worst results?

 

[xotoxi]

Are people actually told that they have gotten a position due to affirmative action?

 

[CurveLight]

is that what you wanted to know about the Coleman Report curvelight? like I said; students matter more than the school itself. middle class white (and black) parents know it is better for their children to go to school with other middle class students and to avoid lower class students with lower class attitudes and behaviours. you call it racist, we call it sensible.

Where did the confusion arise? I didn't ask for you to present the opinions from a white supremacist organization about the coleman report. If you can't back up your claims about the coleman report then why even bring it up? Let me give an example of making a claim and backing it up. The economic disparities for funding is still well alive. This is from the study I already linked:

"The present per-pupil spending level in the New York City schools is $11,700, which may be compared with a per-pupil spending level in excess of $22,000 in the well-to-do suburban district of Manhasset, Long Island."


Now, do you have a better source than a Senior Fellow at the white supremacist organization of the Century Foundation or are you totally trapped in a twisted psychotic world of self justified hate?

EQUALITY OF EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITY.

there's the link to the Coleman report. point out the fallicies you found in the condensed version of both Coleman reports.

as to the per student spending...doesn't the District of Columbia always top the list and get the worst results?

You made the claim. Either back it up or do your usual routine of finding a way to blame others when you are unable.

 

[CurveLight]

Are people actually told that they have gotten a position due to affirmative action?

That has been the case for well over 150 years. Why complain now?

 

[editec]

Affirmative action's primary flaw is that it demands that the people who did not really ever benefit from the past injustice personally pay for it.

I graduated college in 1977.

Bet your ass that AA affected my career from the getgo.

I don't blame minorities or women for that.

I blame the idiots who structured AA that way.

It could have been done in a way that makes sense.

 

[CurveLight]

Affirmative action's primary flaw is that it demands that the people who did not really ever benefit from the past injustice personally pay for it.

I graduated college in 1977.

Bet your ass that AA affected my career from the getgo.

I don't blame minorities or women for that.

I blame the idiots who structured AA that way.

It could have been done in a way that makes sense.

Whites have predominantly benefited from the injustices of the past. You may not personally see a direct benefit but that cannot erase the macroscopic benefits. What's more, whites have had AA in schools for as long as the US has been around. Why is it nobody raised a stink over it? AA suddenly becomes the evil machine when it helps minorities.

 

[IanC]

Where did the confusion arise? I didn't ask for you to present the opinions from a white supremacist organization about the coleman report. If you can't back up your claims about the coleman report then why even bring it up? Let me give an example of making a claim and backing it up. The economic disparities for funding is still well alive. This is from the study I already linked:

"The present per-pupil spending level in the New York City schools is $11,700, which may be compared with a per-pupil spending level in excess of $22,000 in the well-to-do suburban district of Manhasset, Long Island."


Now, do you have a better source than a Senior Fellow at the white supremacist organization of the Century Foundation or are you totally trapped in a twisted psychotic world of self justified hate?

EQUALITY OF EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITY.

there's the link to the Coleman report. point out the fallicies you found in the condensed version of both Coleman reports.

as to the per student spending...doesn't the District of Columbia always top the list and get the worst results?

You made the claim. Either back it up or do your usual routine of finding a way to blame others when you are unable.

well I did 'back it up'. you generically say all that I said is wrong and refuse to be specific, or address the points I make about your posts.

 

[CurveLight]

EQUALITY OF EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITY.

there's the link to the Coleman report. point out the fallicies you found in the condensed version of both Coleman reports.

as to the per student spending...doesn't the District of Columbia always top the list and get the worst results?

You made the claim. Either back it up or do your usual routine of finding a way to blame others when you are unable.

well I did 'back it up'. you generically say all that I said is wrong and refuse to be specific, or address the points I make about your posts.

You didn't back it up. You linked a hack piece from the racist amren rag. Can you back up your own claims or do you generally not have a clue and are trapped into linking useless racists?

 

[IanC]

You made the claim. Either back it up or do your usual routine of finding a way to blame others when you are unable.

well I did 'back it up'. you generically say all that I said is wrong and refuse to be specific, or address the points I make about your posts.

You didn't back it up. You linked a hack piece from the racist amren rag. Can you back up your own claims or do you generally not have a clue and are trapped into linking useless racists?

I have made a lot of claims. because you refuse to specify which claim you have a problem with I have to infer what you want an answer to.

I said--

The Coleman Report found out to its surprise that the success of school was much more influenced by the students attending than the school or the money spent. I think the parents and the students need to play a bigger and more competent role in 'diverse' schools. there is no reason that any school can't be safe and successful if the students co-operate. just look at Catholic schools that operate on a mere fraction of public schools.

to which you said--

Which Coleman Report? (66' or 75') White parents who want to give their kids the best possible start in life do so by avoiding blacks in schools? You say private schools are very expensive but academic performance isn't based on the money spent. So whites pay an exorbitant amount simply to keep it white? I don't know if it's realized or not but the basic message being expressed here is pretty troubling.

I then googled the Coleman Report and found little documentation, it is 36 years old after all. the one article that summarized James Coleman's career was by someone you consider a racist. I don't know that. I do know that it seemed to be scholarly and included the sparse facts shown in internet encyclopaedias. when you criticised my source I found and gave you a link to the original document (66). from what I have read in the original, the points made in Kahlenberg's are correct, that is why I asked you to clarify which points were false. you have not done so, and indeed are still claiming that I have not backed up my statements or my sources.

On the other hand you have not responded to my rebuttal of school funding vis-a-vis District of Columbia having close to top funding with close to bottom achievement. Nor have you explained why newspaper articles linked through Amren are different than any other newspaper articles. Nor have you responded to why you think an idea is to be accepted or rejected according to who says it, rather than by the inherent quality of the idea.

will you respond this time?

 

[IanC]

You linked a hack piece from the racist amren rag.

I found the Kahlenberg article through google and a website named bnet. please show me the link you are accusing me of using, if it exists anywhere but in your clouded mind

 

[CurveLight]

well I did 'back it up'. you generically say all that I said is wrong and refuse to be specific, or address the points I make about your posts.

You didn't back it up. You linked a hack piece from the racist amren rag. Can you back up your own claims or do you generally not have a clue and are trapped into linking useless racists?

I have made a lot of claims. because you refuse to specify which claim you have a problem with I have to infer what you want an answer to.

I said--

The Coleman Report found out to its surprise that the success of school was much more influenced by the students attending than the school or the money spent. I think the parents and the students need to play a bigger and more competent role in 'diverse' schools. there is no reason that any school can't be safe and successful if the students co-operate. just look at Catholic schools that operate on a mere fraction of public schools.

to which you said--

Which Coleman Report? (66' or 75') White parents who want to give their kids the best possible start in life do so by avoiding blacks in schools? You say private schools are very expensive but academic performance isn't based on the money spent. So whites pay an exorbitant amount simply to keep it white? I don't know if it's realized or not but the basic message being expressed here is pretty troubling.

I then googled the Coleman Report and found little documentation, it is 36 years old after all. the one article that summarized James Coleman's career was by someone you consider a racist. I don't know that. I do know that it seemed to be scholarly and included the sparse facts shown in internet encyclopaedias. when you criticised my source I found and gave you a link to the original document (66). from what I have read in the original, the points made in Kahlenberg's are correct, that is why I asked you to clarify which points were false. you have not done so, and indeed are still claiming that I have not backed up my statements or my sources.

On the other hand you have not responded to my rebuttal of school funding vis-a-vis District of Columbia having close to top funding with close to bottom achievement. Nor have you explained why newspaper articles linked through Amren are different than any other newspaper articles. Nor have you responded to why you think an idea is to be accepted or rejected according to who says it, rather than by the inherent quality of the idea.

will you respond this time?

It's simple. You claimed the Coleman Report shows funding is irrelevant so it is up to you using that report to support the claim. Obviously you can't do it or you would have done so by now.