2nd Night of French Riots

[Zhukov]

Medved is reporting the 9th night of rioting is getting underway as I type.

 

[ekrem]

It's moslems. The teenagers are a red heiring.

French People! Listen up! Your foreign and immigration policies are suicidal insanity. These people do not like you. If possible they would see you all butchered, yet you have let these people into your home. The time will come when you will have to stand up for yourselves. I suggest you start preparing, because we will not be there to help you. And not because we won't want to, but because you will not let us until it is too late.

i do not know whether you have been to france or not, but these sattelite-cities (ghetos) are filled with wannabe gangsters with joints and consumeing joints and soon.

Yes, they might be muslims, but i do not think, that the reason for this street-wars are islam. Further, i doubt these teenagers visit mosques or something like that. It is my personal thinking, and i do not demand for it the only rightness. Your statement can be true, too.


Now in Korsika (Island in Mid-terranian sea) locals have made 2 attacks whether on mosques or some other buildings i do not know (my french is really really bad) but the target was noth-african maghrebines.
http://permanent.nouvelobs.com/societe/20051104.FAP3790.html?0716.html

 

[Zhukov]

Well, I find it interesting when the things I read talk about police guarding synagogues, and what not. Now, Europeans are historically renowned for their anti-semitism, but since the rioters seem to be predominantly moslems and we hear reports of tear gas is being shot into mosques, well, draw your own conclusions.

And when you read the liberal media reports about unemployment and poverty remember that the marxist view of the world always boils everything down to economics and class warfare.

 

[ekrem]

Well, I find it interesting when the things I read talk about police guarding synagogues, and what not. Now, Europeans are historically renowned for their anti-semitism, but since the rioters seem to be predominantly moslems and we hear reports of tear gas is being shot into mosques, well, draw your own conclusions.

And when you read the liberal media reports about unemployment and poverty remember that the marxist view of the world always boils everything down to economics and class warfare.

but what i can't understand is: why are the security forces so helpless?
Why aren't they present with 10.000 policemen or gendarmerie. Sarkozy did not a good job. France's management is not an shiny example for manageing such situations...
i don't know, but i saw a documentary special-news abut these riots. There were some social street-workers interviewed from this district. They said the people there are pessimistic, all shit in these districts and the people want to get attention with these riots.

Of course this can't be an excuse for vandalism.

 

[Zhukov]

but what i can't understand is: why are the security forces so helpless?

Well, you don't want to offend anyone....

 

[Annie]

Bottom line, the French, nay the Europeans in general have accepted these 'immigrants' into their countries; have allowed and encouraged them to settle into ghettos, while not having the wherewithal to create jobs for them. It's now coming to bite them in the keester.

They are now looking at an 'Intifada', just like Israel, that they have heretofor treated with disdain.

 

[padisha emperor]

...

It's not because they're muslims. there are no-muslims, catholics.

It's because they're sick of living in these suburbs. And for a lot it's like a game, kick the police and defy the authority...


Butr : lots of medias are speaking of these events.

And i saw the CNN Breaking News' presentator saying that the whole country will be in this state, with such shits....They said it was a kind of civil war...

Come on !!!! compare with the US wars of gangs, it's nothing !!!! nothing...


So that made me laugh, this CNN reporting.


The Russian medias said that it was the fault of the dangerous muslims and arabians...Morons...they too mmuch in the tchetchenia conflict...that biased their information.

Because don't make confusion : it's not becasue they're muslims, it's because they were living here : some are not muslims, the most part of muslims didn't riot.

 

[Said1]

...

.


The Russian medias said that it was the fault of the dangerous muslims and arabians...Morons...they too mmuch in the tchetchenia conflict...that biased their information.

Because don't make confusion : it's not becasue they're muslims, it's because they were living here : some are not muslims, the most part of muslims didn't riot.

That's odd, the Canadian media is saying alost the same thing as the Russians and showing live footage of the riots. Our media is as PC as you can get, so I tend to believe the majority are Muslims when the media here is saying that. I know you "live" in France, but still....the CANADIAN media is saying it's largely Muslims. That says a lot, just in case you didn't know that.

 

[ekrem]

...

It's not because they're muslims. there are no-muslims, catholics.

It's because they're sick of living in these suburbs. And for a lot it's like a game, kick the police and defy the authority...


Butr : lots of medias are speaking of these events.

And i saw the CNN Breaking News' presentator saying that the whole country will be in this state, with such shits....They said it was a kind of civil war...

Come on !!!! compare with the US wars of gangs, it's nothing !!!! nothing...


So that made me laugh, this CNN reporting.


The Russian medias said that it was the fault of the dangerous muslims and arabians...Morons...they too mmuch in the tchetchenia conflict...that biased their information.

Because don't make confusion : it's not becasue they're muslims, it's because they were living here : some are not muslims, the most part of muslims didn't riot.

I agree here @Padishah

it is a view of no objectivity because damged view from AL-QAEDA...
there are north-africans, caribbeans, maybe turks or whatever. the religion here in these riots is not the cause. Would it be, then not only a district of paris would burn, but whole france would burn.

there are 5 million muslims there, but everyone sees only this district with these teenagers and put them on behalf of every muslim there. This is not right.

We do not know if there are christians too in these riots. How could we know? they are masked.
So here is a before-condemn which results from Iraq and Al-qaeda trauma.

 

[Annie]

...

It's not because they're muslims. there are no-muslims, catholics.

It's because they're sick of living in these suburbs. And for a lot it's like a game, kick the police and defy the authority...


Butr : lots of medias are speaking of these events.

And i saw the CNN Breaking News' presentator saying that the whole country will be in this state, with such shits....They said it was a kind of civil war...

Come on !!!! compare with the US wars of gangs, it's nothing !!!! nothing...


So that made me laugh, this CNN reporting.


The Russian medias said that it was the fault of the dangerous muslims and arabians...Morons...they too mmuch in the tchetchenia conflict...that biased their information.

Because don't make confusion : it's not becasue they're muslims, it's because they were living here : some are not muslims, the most part of muslims didn't riot.

PE, the gangs here are not torching their neighborhoods. When there was something like what happened after Rodney King, the leaders did come out and remind the citizens that they were destroying their own communities.

You have a major problem building there and you are not alone. You have no jobs for these people, yet there they are-treated like the proles you have made them.

 

[theHawk]

My God, you people really are in denial...



:duh3:

 

[Annie]

My God, you people really are in denial...



:duh3:

but it is getting more difficult, links of course:

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/005734.php

Paris Riots Spread Across France

The rioting that spent a week penned up in immigrant ghettoes around Paris finall broke out across France last night, with the torching of almost a thousand cars overnight. Government indecision and inaction appears to have emboldened the disaffected in France, transforming the riots from an isolated act to a movement with serious implications for the stability of the center of the EU:

Widespread riots across impoverished areas of France took a malevolent turn in a ninth night of violence, with youths torching an ambulance and stoning medical workers coming to the aid of a sick person. Authorities arrested more than 250 people, an unprecedented sweep since the beginning of the unrest.

Bands of youths also burned a nursery school, warehouses and nearly 900 cars overnight as the violence spread from the restive Paris suburbs to towns around France. The U.S. warned Americans against taking trains to the airport through the affected areas. ...

Fires and other incidents were reported in Lille, Toulouse, Rouen and elsewhere on the second night of unrest in areas beyond metropolitan Paris. An incendiary device was tossed at the wall of a synagogue in Pierrefitte, northwest of Paris, where electricity went out after a burning car damaged an electrical pole.

"This is dreadful, unfortunate. Who did this? Against whom?" Naima Mouis, a hospital worker in Suresnes, asked while looking at the hulk of her burned-out car.

One would think the burning synagogue might provide a clue to Mlle. Mouis. The AP and BBC continue to evade the point that these riots started in Muslim neighborhoods among mainly French-born adult children of immigrants, angry at their economic and social status but also increasingly Islamist in temperament. The BBC account fails to even mention the synagogue, but does include aggressive policing towards a certain demographic among the "youths" set of complaints:

The interior minister told police officers on Friday evening that the riots were organised and the key to ending them lay in making arrests.

Many residents say repressive policing has heightened a sense of injustice, with officers systematically stopping and searching young blacks and North Africans in particular, our correspondent says.

Both agencies make the arrest count from last night a particular focus of their reports. The French arrested 250 rioters across the country last night, which sounds impressive -- until readers understand that more than a dozen areas went under the torch just last night alone. That means that the police could only detain less than 20 per incident, and only one rioter for every four cars lit up in the uprising.

The Washington Post takes a bit more honest approach -- but only because it wants to report that Muslims now want to negotiate an end to the riots:

The attacks have underscored anger and frustration among immigrants and their French-born children who inhabit the country's largest and poorest slum areas. A large percentage of this population is Muslim, and Islamic neighborhood groups have been trying to dissuade young people from taking part in the rioting.

Thursday night into Friday morning, the violence spread to other parts of France for the first time. Attacks and fires were reported in Normandy on the northwest coast, Dijon in the central Burgundy region and Provence in the far south.

The attacks were triggered when two Muslim teenagers were electrocuted last week after they leapt into a power substation in an attempt to evade a police who had set up an identity checkpoint. Several dozen policemen and assailants have since been injured in street fighting, but no further deaths have been reported.

In fact, this report by Molly Moore may be the most honest reporting on the riots of any news service publishing accounts of the violence. She includes quotes from French Muslims that acknowledge their community's role in the rioting, decrying the violence and the destruction of their own neighborhoods that have resulted from it. They blame the radicals for degrading their own religion in this orgy of violence across France and warn of long-lasting damage to Muslim standing in France -- which whatever its other faults, has at least traditionally welcomed Muslims until the Islamists started to create problems for French security.

The Islamists, however, understand that they have the momentum and the political will that the French and their government lack. They will not give that up easily, and not without significant concessions. One cannot help but be reminded of the first barbarian sack of Rome at the hands of Alaric, who decreed that the Romans would keep their lives only as long as they refrained from interfering in the pillaging of Alaric's forces until they finished. I wonder what the Islamists will demand from the French for their survival.
Posted by Captain Ed at November 5, 2005 08:56 AM

 

[Annie]

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thr...=225&tstart=0&&&&edition=1&ttl=20051105222456

 

[Annie]

For those that are bad at dates, this is prior to Iraq War, shortly after the first GW appearance at UN on such:

http://instapundit.com/archives/004517.php

October 07, 2002

MORE ON FRANCE: Reader Peter Ingemi sends these thoughts on why France is likely to be targeted for terrorism in the near future:

The French are the natural target of Al Qaeda at this point. The UN is the one place where they can deter the US diplomatically and France is the one to do it.

It is very clear to them by now that attacks on the US are not going to deter them, (although they will be done if practicable) in fact any attack on a scale less than an airline disaster will be seen as a weak response.

There is also no point in attacking England which is solidly behind us. Given the character of the British it is more likely, not less likely to drive them into our arms.

Russia has a history, and that history says they have no compunction about attacking and slaughtering Al Qaeda and any of their friends in ways much more troubling than Americans can think of.

China is even more likely than Russia to retaliate, (and I suspect they have much more knowledge of Al Qaeda then they let on) in fact a public attack on Al Qaeda might be a diplomatic coup for China. Don't be surprised to see one with a lot of press for small potatoes.

France is a totally different matter, it has a veto in the UN, Its ability to project military power is less than all of the others by far, it has a large Arab population, huge economic ties to the Arab world, and a history of appeasement, anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism. I personally think France never recovered psychologically from in succession being conquered by Germany, driven out of Indochina, and driven out of Algeria.

Truly or falsely Al Qaeda will figure that France is the target that can be pressured by terror and the attack on the mayor and the Cole style strike are in my opinion aimed in that direction.

Interesting observation.

UPDATE: It's a France-a-thon at InstaPundit! Reader Thomas Briggs monitors French media regularly and offers this observation:

I listen to the French evening news just about every day (amazingly three networks are streamed free later in the same day at www.tf1.fr; at www.france2.fr; and at www.france3.fr), and so I can report that there's no punch pulling whatever on the Arab nut-job who stabbed the mayor of Paris. The evening news on Channel Three interviewed the guy's Arab-surnamed neighbors, filmed his building in one of those Stalinist/Robert Moses-looking tower complexes that the French do so well, and mentioned his views on homosexuals in politics. The news also reported that he's got ten arrests already on his rap sheet!

Your readers are also wrong, I think, about how the French will react to terror attacks against them. The lead story in Le Monde this morning is "French Tanker on Fire: Terrorism's Shadow." (The second lead is "Homophobic Aggression against Delanoe," by the way.) I understand the spirit of Vichy as well as any of your readers, but I believe that the real danger today comes from the thought that Qaida is the Hyperpower's problem and that maybe France can stay off the target list. But the latest Cole-type attack changes everything. The practical effect of the tanker attack will likely be to dump the French into the same boat with us: we'll then all sink or float together. French efforts to find a third way have been undermined.

Well, in fairness to Mr. Ingemi, he suggested that peeling the French off was the plan -- not necessarily that it would work. Judging Western reactions has not been a strong point of the Ladenites, or of Saddam Hussein for that matter.

ANOTHER UPDATE: Stephen Gordon has some thoughts on this, inspired by the latest "bin Laden" tape.

YET ANOTHER UPDATE: The France-a-thon continues, with this from Claire Berlinski:

Thomas Briggs is right on both points. Peter Ingemi rightly observes that France is something of a swing voter where the Islamic world is concerned. But the conclusion he draws from this premise is wrong. The key to the French psyche is the word "bribery." Whether explicitly or by tacit agreement, the French now have something of a deal going with the terrorists -- leave France alone, and France will do a few favors for their sponsors in the UN and from time to time instruct a foreign minister to say something handsome about the dangers of American military hegemony. If the bombs start going off in Paris, this will change faster than you can say "seven years without a trial" -- which is the length of time the putative 1995 subway bombers have been rotting in French prisons, under conditions that have no doubt been immensely less attractive than those at Camp X-ray. While it's true that neither al Qaeda nor the heavies of the Ba'ath regime have been terrific at gauging probable Western reactions to their actions, it doesn't take profound insight into France and its history to see that this is the deal, and that it's in their favor. I doubt they'll want to screw up something that is, from their point of view, a very good thing. One can't be sure when dealing with lunatics, but that's my instinct, anyway.

Reader Phillipe Richard adds:

If this is what Al Qaeda intended, it was pretty silly. I mean, France once bombed a ship owned and operated by Greenpeace because it being used to protest nuclear tests.

Stay tuned.

ANOTHER UPDATE: Rod Dreher says that if the stabber had been a fundamentalist Christian people would be making a bigger deal of his religion, which seems right to me.

THE FRANCE-A-THON CONTINUES! Nelson Ascher writes from Paris:

As far as I can tell, in Israel, those who distrust the Arabs most deeply are the Sephardic Jews, who have lived among them for generations. The Jewish left that is in any way sympathetic to the Palestinians is usually recruited among the Ashkenazis. Thus, here in France, you'll find, among those who were driven out of North Africa, a hatred of Arabs and Muslims for which there is no correspondence in the US. They know them, their habits and frequently speak their language. An anti-Arab backlash in France is not exactly a remote hypothesis. And I am sure their cops and secret services know much more about the local Muslims than they would publicly admit. The sudden end or at least interruption of most anti-semitic acts immediately after the elections is proof enough of it: they knew the culprits, their addresses and phone numbers. The French were also quick in getting to the guys behind the 95 bombings and they also captured their own Osama, Carlos the Jackal. Besides, if the government turns against the Arabs and Muslims, I believe that most of the French intellectuals, who are now so vociferously their allies, will soon fall in line, because almost all French intellectual activity is, at least partly, state-sponsored, and the boss here is not fond of too much criticism. Let's wait and see.

Indeed we shall.
posted at 10:25 AM by Glenn Reynolds

 

[Annie]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051105...8ai.d2s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

French Police Arrest 250 As Arson Grows

By JOHN LEICESTER, Associated Press Writer 25 minutes ago

Youths armed with gasoline bombs fanned out from Paris' poor, troubled suburbs to shatter the tranquility of resort cities on the Mediterranean, torching scores of vehicles, nursery schools and other targets during a 10th straight night of arson attacks.

Police deployed a helicopter and tactical teams to chase down youths speeding from one attack to another in cars and on motorbikes. Some 2,300 police were brought into the Paris region to bolster security, France-Info said. More than 250 people were arrested.

The violence — originally concentrated in neighborhoods northeast of Paris with large immigrant populations — is forcing France to confront long-simmering anger in its suburbs, where many Africans and their French-born children live on society's margins, struggling with unemployment, poor housing, racial discrimination, crime and a lack of opportunity.

The unrest, triggered by fury over the deaths of two teenagers, has taken on unprecedented scope and intensity. The violence reached far-flung corners of France on Saturday, from Rouen in Normandy to Bordeaux in the southwest to Strasbourg near the German border, but the Paris region has borne the brunt.

In quiet Acheres, on the edge of the St. Germain forest west of Paris, arsonists burned a nursery school, where part of the roof caved in, and about a dozen cars in four attacks that the mayor said seemed "perfectly organized."

Children's photos clung to the blackened walls, and melted plastic toys littered the floor. Residents gathered at the school gate demanded that the army be deployed or suggested that citizens band together to protect their neighborhoods. Mayor Alain Outreman tried to cool tempers.

"We are not going to start militias," he said. "You would have to be everywhere."

Arson attacks were reported in the Paris region and outlying cities, many known for their calm. Cars were torched in the cultural bastion of Avignon in southern France and the resort cities of Nice and Cannes, a police officer said.

Arson was reported in Nantes in the southwest, the Lille region in the north and Saint-Dizier in the Ardennes region east of Paris. In the eastern city of Strasbourg, 18 cars were set alight in full daylight, police said.

In one attack, youths in the eastern Paris suburb of Meaux prevented paramedics from evacuating a sick person from a housing project. They pelted rescuers with rocks and then torched the waiting ambulance, an Interior Ministry official said.

By daybreak Saturday, 897 vehicles were destroyed — a sharp rise from the 500 burned a night earlier, police said. It was the worst one-day toll since the unrest erupted Oct. 27 following the accidental electrocution of the two teenagers who hid in a power substation, apparently believing police were chasing them.

The anger spread to the Internet, with blogs mourning the youths.

Along with messages of condolence and appeals for calm were insults targeting police, threats of more violence and warnings that the unrest will feed support for France's anti-immigration extreme right.

"Civil war is declared. There will no doubt be deaths. Unfortunately, we have to prepare," said a posting signed "Rania."

"We are going to destroy everything. Rest in peace, guys," wrote "Saint Denis."

Police detained 258 people overnight, almost all in the Paris region, and dozens of them will be prosecuted, Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy said after a government crisis meeting. He warned of possibly heavy sentences for burning cars.

"Violence penalizes those who live in the toughest conditions," he said.

Most rioting has been in towns with low-income housing projects where unemployment and distrust of police run high. But in a new development, arsonists were moving beyond their heavily policed neighborhoods to attack others with less security, said a national police spokesman, Patrick Hamon.

"They are very mobile, in cars or scooters. ... It is quite hard to combat" he said. "Most are young, very young, we have even seen young minors."

There appeared to be no coordination between separate groups in different areas, Hamon said. But within gangs, he added, youths are communicating by cell phones or e-mails. "They organize themselves, arrange meetings, some prepare the Molotov cocktails."

In Torcy, close to Disneyland Paris, a youth center and a police station were set ablaze. In Suresnes, on the Seine River west of the capital, 44 cars were burned in a parking lot.

"We thought Suresnes was calm," said Naima Mouis, a hospital employee whose car was torched into a twisted hulk of metal.

On Saturday morning, more than 1,000 people took part in a silent march in one of the worst-hit suburbs, Aulnay-sous-Bois. Local officials wore sashes in the red-white-and-blue of the French flag as they filed past housing projects and the wrecks of burned cars. One white banner read "No to violence."

Anger was fanned days ago when a tear gas bomb exploded in a mosque in Clichy-sous-Bois, north of Paris — the same suburb where the youths were electrocuted.

Sarkozy also has inflamed passions by referring to troublemakers as "scum."

Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin denied that police were to blame. The director of the Great Mosque of Paris, Dalil Boubakeur, who met Saturday with Villepin, urged the government to choose its words carefully and send a message of peace.

"In such difficult circumstances, every word counts," Boubakeur said.