1994 Treaty REQUIRES USA to Defend Ukraine From Invasion!

[Mojo2]

mojo continues mumbling about Lincoln, Wilson, and so forth. They were in titanic struggles, even more so was FDR.

The War on Terror should have been crime operation from the get go along with the CIA invasion of Afghanistan.

We lost ONE death in the overthrow of the Taliban. We had about 450 operatives on the ground.

But no good deed goes unpunished, and the fucking neo-cons expanded what did not need to be expanded in Afghanistan and the Iraq.

If Bush or his folks go to western Europe, ever, they will be arrested on war crime charges.

Silly Fuck, why change subjects?

We weren't talking about that aspect of the WOT. We were discussing the sometimes extraordinary measures ("Break Glass in Case of Fire" types of national emergencies) Presidents have gone to to protect the people and the vital interests of this country.

You want to discusss afghanistan start another post and leave this one as is or end it.

But one thing you mention in your post is the belief that the WOT should be conducted like a law enforcement operation, which is stupid.

Law Enforcement officers can't enter other countries in mass and prosecute any type of enforcement without that country's permission.

The minute you cross the line you had better be prepared to be arrested by that country's own LEO's and military or you had better be able to fight your way out.

With a military operation heavy weapons, lots of men and materials and pin point Bomber strikes are possible.

As nice and neat as you armchair QB's like to make things seem, those CIA operatives had the assistance of massive B-52 strikes in Afghanistan. Couldn't have done what they did without air assistance.

That means military, Silly Fuck.

And what was the Patriot Act BUT a Law Enforcement tool?

Go to Netflix and start watching their many documentaries about the war and about the post 9/11 days.

Obviously your LW media have revealed you, once again, to be impotent.

 

[JakeStarkey]

mojo will never ever up one anybody on this issue.

He brought in comments from WW, AL, and I pointed out his stupidity and corrected him.

The Patriot Act was not needed.

The invasion of Iraq and the extension of power in Afghanistan were not needed.

The neo-cons became war criminals, and those who support them are accessories after the fact of war crimes.

 

[jon_berzerk]

The treaty that Ukraine signed in 1997 with Russia trumps our treaty of 1994.

Sorry neo-con wimps: no war.

treaty of 1994

was even a treaty

did congress sign off on it

An actual treaty would trump an agreement.

i cant find if congress voted on it or not

 

[JWBooth]

treaty of 1994

was even a treaty

did congress sign off on it

An actual treaty would trump an agreement.

i cant find if congress voted on it or not

Never elevated to the level of treaty and ratified by congress as required in the CONSTITUTION.

 

[Mojo2]

mojo will never ever up one anybody on this issue.

He brought in comments from WW, AL, and I pointed out his stupidity and corrected him.

The Patriot Act was not needed.

The invasion of Iraq and the extension of power in Afghanistan were not needed.

The neo-cons became war criminals, and those who support them are accessories after the fact of war crimes.

U.S. Cites 1991 U.N. Cease-Fire Resolution as the Legal Basis for Its Invasion
March 21, 2003|From Reuters

UNITED NATIONS — The United States gave its official reasons for invading Iraq to the U.N. Security Council late Thursday, saying Baghdad had broken a cease-fire resolution adopted after the 1991 Persian Gulf War.

Britain and Australia, two other nations in the U.S.-led coalition, wrote similar, shorter, letters to the 15-member council. None of the letters mentioned "regime change," an aim of the invasion but never authorized in any council resolution.

U.S. Cites 1991 U.N. Cease-Fire Resolution as the Legal Basis for Its Invasion - Los Angeles Times

 

[jon_berzerk]

An actual treaty would trump an agreement.

i cant find if congress voted on it or not

Never elevated to the level of treaty and ratified by congress as required in the CONSTITUTION.

so in not so many words

it is a non binding agreement

 

[JWBooth]

i cant find if congress voted on it or not

Never elevated to the level of treaty and ratified by congress as required in the CONSTITUTION.

so in not so many words

it is a non binding agreement

Yep, tough shit for the poor bloodthirsty keyboard warriors.

 

[Mojo2]

mojo will never ever up one anybody on this issue.

What are you doing, using that silly fuckin B&D "Boyfriends" lingo?

"Up one"??? is that what you boys call it when you do that homosexual sex?

I hope to God I DON'T "up one" anybody!!!

 

[Mojo2]

mojo makes no solid fact filled support for his assertions.

That's the problem. He pontificates and when clearly rebutted, he whines.

You never "butted" me in the first place. Never mind the issue of RE-butting.

That's your game.

My posts are all self explanatory for most intelligent adults with a Conservative's level of awareness of current events and a general knowledge of the GWOT since 9/11.

Too bad for you and your lying, manipulative, anemic news sources.

Looks like THEY are the ones who re-BUTT ALL you Liberals.

They butt you and re-butt you every time you watch or read them.

Do you feel like you are being violated when it happens? Or are you so used to it by now that you like it???

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cROJW9Jn3ds]I'll fuck you till you love me faggot - YouTube[/ame]

That could be what your MSM weasels think about all of you Liberals.

I don't include the "Listening" option because the only Left Wing radio offering went belly up many moons ago.

Why? Because compared to Rush Limbaugh and the other honest and reliable RW radio broadcasters Air America's LW deficiencies REALLY stood out.

 

[MisterBeale]

If you do the research, you will find that the US and it's proxies spent around 5 billion dollars, first to put pressure on its banking system and its economy, and second to instigate the fascist coup that occurred in Kiev. That is a clear violation of the fist three points of this Memorandum agreement.

Couple of things.

1) Links to the above
2) Why wouldn't the West not try and pull the Ukraine away from Russia, and why wouldn't the Ukraine want to go. Ukraine's options are to follow democracies like Germany, Switzerland, the Baltic states, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Poland, Spain, Italy - or a country like Russia run by a little faggot with a he-man complex, run by Oligarchs (as long as they tow the line) and where somebody's life is meaningless and half the population seem permanently depressed and/or are alcoholics. Easy choice to make IMO...

Sure, I'll oblige you.

I have already rebuked the MSM CFR/Royal Institute of International Affairs western media propaganda narrative on several threads. It is getting tiresome, really. It isn't my job to deprogram folks that get all their news from cable and satellite or from newspapers and radio that prints/broadcasts stuff via news services.

Here is my link to the previous post, as cross posting is against the rules.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/343103-graham-tells-obama-to-quit-going-on-tv-threatening-putin-4.html#post8712961

“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” ― Mark Twain.

To address point two? Again, I ask you to consider that everything you have been taught in your state institutions or have learned in western media about Russia may not be entirely correct. Governments and media institutions have worked in tandem to condition the majority of Americans minds to believe in a reality that makes a lot of the easily manipulable favorable toward punitive and aggressive policies which are not in their best interest, but are in the interests of the war profiteers and the captains of industry. Don't you remember, maybe, Eisenhower warning us to guard against this?

Have you looked at the debt to GDP of the US and the EU lately? Russia knows the ponzi scheme of the fiat financial system of the Basel system that the IMF and their games have all but been played out here in the west. They want real tangible assets now. Not this fake fiat shit Europe and the US have been handing them. You do know that Russia and China now trade directly with each other and don't convert to dollar anymore, right?

The West has lost it's industrial base, debauched their currency, corrupted their governments, and morally bankrupted their societies. Neither the Russians, the Chinese or the other BRIC nations were not pleased with the world wide economic collapse due mainly to the corruption in the markets in the US and Britain. All the BRIC nations know it was small compared to the next one, and that the corruption was endemic, it was NOT rooted out, but made worse. They are getting ready, we still have not solved any of these problem, and time is running out. Most say time has run out.

What is our nation doing? We are busy trying to spread our influence militarily over the globe. Domestically, we are passing all sorts of measures to get ready to impose martial law, "just in case."

I could make some other speculative observations, some quite obvious at this point, but then I guess we would have to throw the whole thread into the conspiracy sub-forum, wouldn't we?

 

[Dr Grump]

Sure, I'll oblige you.

I have already rebuked the MSM CFR/Royal Institute of International Affairs western media propaganda narrative on several threads. It is getting tiresome, really. It isn't my job to deprogram folks that get all their news from cable and satellite or from newspapers and radio that prints/broadcasts stuff via news services.

Here is my link to the previous post, as cross posting is against the rules.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/343103-graham-tells-obama-to-quit-going-on-tv-threatening-putin-4.html#post8712961

“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” ― Mark Twain.

To address point two? Again, I ask you to consider that everything you have been taught in your state institutions or have learned in western media about Russia may not be entirely correct. Governments and media institutions have worked in tandem to condition the majority of Americans minds to believe in a reality that makes a lot of the easily manipulable favorable toward punitive and aggressive policies which are not in their best interest, but are in the interests of the war profiteers and the captains of industry. Don't you remember, maybe, Eisenhower warning us to guard against this?

Have you looked at the debt to GDP of the US and the EU lately? Russia knows the ponzi scheme of the fiat financial system of the Basel system that the IMF and their games have all but been played out here in the west. They want real tangible assets now. Not this fake fiat shit Europe and the US have been handing them. You do know that Russia and China now trade directly with each other and don't convert to dollar anymore, right?

The West has lost it's industrial base, debauched their currency, corrupted their governments, and morally bankrupted their societies. Neither the Russians, the Chinese or the other BRIC nations were not pleased with the world wide economic collapse due mainly to the corruption in the markets in the US and Britain. All the BRIC nations know it was small compared to the next one, and that the corruption was endemic, it was NOT rooted out, but made worse. They are getting ready, we still have not solved any of these problem, and time is running out. Most say time has run out.

What is our nation doing? We are busy trying to spread our influence militarily over the globe. Domestically, we are passing all sorts of measures to get ready to impose martial law, "just in case."

I could make some other speculative observations, some quite obvious at this point, but then I guess we would have to throw the whole thread into the conspiracy sub-forum, wouldn't we?

It may not be your job to 'deprogram' anybody, but I can assure you every time I log on there are at least 3-4000 new posts. I read about 200-300 a day, so the chances of reading yours are pretty low, but thanks for the response.

First of all I have huge issues with your Paul Roberts link. He is partisan for a start and does not like the current Washington set up so you have to realise he has an agenda just like everybody else.

Second of all, in the piece he says that the 'overtaking' of the govt is a CIA, Washington, NGO plot so they can rape Ukraine of its wealth. Er, Ukraine is almost bankrupt. A lot of good that would do them. The current regime in the USA is democrat. I don't think they give a shit about putting boots on the ground in Ukraine. In fact, they would more likely than not want the opposite.

Third, Iran, China or Russia calling the western world corrupt is laughable. Is there corruption in the west? Absolutely. On the same scale as Russia, China, or even Iran? Not even close.

Fourth - I follow all sorts of media. I am not spoon fed anything. I look at all aspects, points of view and then make a decision. I am a centrist by nature.

Fifth - yeah, totally agree about the arse falling out of the US and western economies. No manufacturing base, and I have asked a few of my friends who are stock brokers and fund managers, this "isn't the current economic system just a huge Ponzi scheme?" Their lack of response was deafening.

Finally, as for the conspiracy theory - well if the shoe fits....

 

[JakeStarkey]

mojo makes no solid fact filled support for his assertions.

That's the problem. He pontificates and when clearly rebutted, he whines.

You never "butted" me in the first place. Never mind the issue of RE-butting.

That's your game.

My posts are all self explanatory for most intelligent adults with a Conservative's level of awareness of current events and a general knowledge of the GWOT since 9/11.

Too bad for you and your lying, manipulative, anemic news sources.

Looks like THEY are the ones who re-BUTT ALL you Liberals.

They butt you and re-butt you every time you watch or read them.

Do you feel like you are being violated when it happens? Or are you so used to it by now that you like it???

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cROJW9Jn3ds]I'll fuck you till you love me faggot - YouTube[/ame]

That could be what your MSM weasels think about all of you Liberals.

I don't include the "Listening" option because the only Left Wing radio offering went belly up many moons ago.

Why? Because compared to Rush Limbaugh and the other honest and reliable RW radio broadcasters Air America's LW deficiencies REALLY stood out.

You are whinging again. I am not a liberal and you are not a conservative. When you start acting like an adult, I will notify you.

 

[MisterBeale]

First of all I have huge issues with your Paul Roberts link. He is partisan for a start and does not like the current Washington set up so you have to realise he has an agenda just like everybody else.

Second of all, in the piece he says that the 'overtaking' of the govt is a CIA, Washington, NGO plot so they can rape Ukraine of its wealth. Er, Ukraine is almost bankrupt. A lot of good that would do them. The current regime in the USA is democrat. I don't think they give a shit about putting boots on the ground in Ukraine. In fact, they would more likely than not want the opposite.

Third, Iran, China or Russia calling the western world corrupt is laughable. Is there corruption in the west? Absolutely. On the same scale as Russia, China, or even Iran? Not even close.

Fourth - I follow all sorts of media. I am not spoon fed anything. I look at all aspects, points of view and then make a decision. I am a centrist by nature.

Fifth - yeah, totally agree about the arse falling out of the US and western economies. No manufacturing base, and I have asked a few of my friends who are stock brokers and fund managers, this "isn't the current economic system just a huge Ponzi scheme?" Their lack of response was deafening.

Finally, as for the conspiracy theory - well if the shoe fits....

Overall, your response was lacking in most regards. I sense a political agenda. Why not just admit to the truth? If you wanted to refute my evidence, why not point out that the link I provided contained more than just one source? Instead, the best refutation of the evidence I provided was a weak Ad Hominem attack, it wasn't actually an attack on the source material or a denial of what the material was saying at all. So, I guess we can agree on the facts. I found it particularly interesting that Chevron sponsored Victoria Nuland's presentation, don't you? That would be great for their business in all of Europe if Russia should cut off gas supplies, don't you think?

Never-mind that Ukraine is 2nd top producer, coming in only after France in energy production of Nuclear energy, it is one of the top coal producers in Europe, and that it has a wealth of mineral and agricultural products. Likewise, the West looks at it for a great place to set up anti-missile bases.

Corporations don't care about how much GDP the people are producing, they care about the potential development of the area. If they only cared how rich it were, than all the meddling that they have always done in Latin America and Africa would have never done. But they have always done it, haven't they? Why not go read, Confessions of an Economic Hit Man: John Perkins, to get a better understanding of why our corporate masters would want to bring Ukraine into the sphere of influence of the west.

But I have a feeling you already know Grumpy, you are just playing coy, aren't you?

As far as corruption goes, I readily agree with you. China, Iran, Russia, all of them experience some types of corruption on a level much higher than the US. But these are social, and local political levels of corruption due to civics and type of government. Our culture, up to this point hasn't permitted it. Mostly due to the religious and work ethic. It is slowly being eroded away though. The type of corruption they suffer from are of a smaller and lesser degree. You speak of corruption as though it is monolithic, and homogenous. It isn't.

Although their societies suffer corruption at nearly all levels at far greater rates of all kinds (Petty Corruption, Sporadic (individual) corruption, Business and political Corruption, Chaotic and Organized corruption, and Bribery) What I would posit is not as much of a problem is;

Grand Corruption

The most dangerous and covert type of corruption call it “gargantuan”. Instances where policy making, its design and implementation are compromised by corrupt practices. Found where public officers in high positions (such as councilors), in the process of making decisions of significant economic value, routinely demand bribes or kickbacks for ensuring that tenders or contracts are awarded to specific contractors. Usually occurs at financial, political and administrative centers of power.

Political (Grand) corruption
Political corruption is any transaction between private and public sector actors through which collective goods are illegitimately converted into private-regarding payoffs. Political corruption is often used synonymously with “grand” or high level corruption, distinguished from bureaucratic or petty corruption because it involves political decision-makers. Political or grand corruption takes place at the high levels of the political system, when politicians and state agents entitled to make and enforce the laws in the name of the people, are using this authority to sustain their power, status and wealth. Political corruption not only leads to the misallocation of resources, but it also perverts the manner in which decisions are made. Political corruption is when the laws and regulations are abused by the rulers, side-stepped, ignored, or even tailored to fit their interests. It is when the legal bases, against which corrupt practices are usually evaluated and judged, are weak and furthermore subject to downright encroachment by the rulers.



Grand corruption
High level or “grand” corruption takes place at the policy formulation end of politics. It refers not so much to the amount of money involved as to the level in which it takes place: grand corruption is at the top levels of the public sphere, where policies and rules are formulated in the first place. Usually (but not always) synonymous to political corruption.

i.e. too big to fail, for the public good, if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor, etc.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Dr. Grump has the best of it, and MisterBeale is merely filibabbling.