Embracing Communist China

[luiza]

The major mistake of USA foreign policy:

Embracing Communist China

Too late -- say, 30-40 years .

Russia and China have found ways to co -operate that will inevitably cost the US dearly .
And if the type of comment being made here is typical of the US , the influence and power of the West will continue to decline .

 

[JoeB131]

Sorry, I don't mean to sound disrespectful but the problem today is that people lack an interest in history, I'm not sure where you fall on this continuum but we should not sugar coat history or look for little pockets of sunshine in a land of darkness.

I have a degree in history. Thanks for asking.

I read the most accurate biography on Mao, it was extremely detailed, down to his wives and mistresses (some of who were quite vicious themselves) and their actions, it was close to 1000 pages long and I read it over a few weeks while on the bus.

Wow, sounds like Bircher Propaganda. Maybe you should talk to actual Chinese people how they feel about Mao.

Not all Germans were nazis. They were in the minority, chosen perhaps due to their own anger and fervor. They produced these animals and had normal citizens help out. Basically nazis who would have been if they would have been recruited. We shouldn't blame all Germans for that, many Germans, Poles, French, priests etc risked their lives to save Jews. Yes, some were paid for their risks as the risks were VERY real. Some could only protect them for a period of time. Without me going into specifics as it would take a long time, the bottom line is our society today doesn't know what has happened and what COULD happen again....to us in the 2020s!

I think you are confused. Nobody in Europe liked the Jews all that much, which is why Hitler found people all over Europe willing to turn them in. There were a few countries that resisted, like Denmark. the US didn't really want them, either. That's why they turned away the SS St. Louis.

Now, to the point, the reason why Mao is revered in China today is not because the Chinese just love them some Marxism. China was capitalistic before Europe even had a name for it. Chinese people love money. China had a God of Money. Chinese folks greet each other with "I hope you get rich!"

No, Mao is revered because after a century of China getting bitchslapped by everyone, he turned around and did some bitch-slapping back.

The communists were the nazis of another stripe. Not all Chinese are communists, clearly they are the minority but they wield immense power. Both are extremists and centralize power and authority. Mao killed more citizens through policies and direct murder than anyone else I can think of. Estimates as high as 80M people. The book I read provided some range of numbers, but it is sickenly high.

Yeah, this is where you get into the Bircher bullshit. the only way you get to these ridiculously high numbers is if you throw in events like the Great Famine of 1959-62 (which my wife lived through as a baby). Did Mao's policies make that worse? Um, yeah, in the way Trump's policies during Covid made it worse. But it was hardly the first famine that China ever experienced.

The bottom line is that ANY system, be it a king or queen, a dictator, police state or whathaveyou that has absolute power without accountability, means they will have no qualms about killing anyone in their way. None. Be it a rival or another nation. The sooner the West re-realizes this, something men like Reagan and those in their prime during that period fully knew, the safer we will all be.

Actually, here's the thing. The Chinese are perfectly fine with the kind of government they have. My wife is from China, and she is kind of shocked by the shit that we let go on in this country, such as rampant drug use. She often shows me videos of Chinese court proceedings where they sentence drug smugglers to death. I'm kind of horrified by this, but to Chinese folks, this is acceptable.

Start with this and see how China reacts. Remove them from "development status", which gives them benefits in trade with the U.S they should not have. Second large economy in the world, creating space stations and putting rovers on the dark side of the moon is NOT a developing economy.

We can all agree with that decision, right? Trump should state that in his debate, "I will remove CHina as a developing nation for purposes of trade with the U.S". Anyone who believes they are objective from all sides would surely agree with this. If they do not, then their true colors will be revealed.

Honestly, I don't care all that much. It seems you just want to punish China for beating us at our own game.

If this was such a big deal, why didn't Trump do it in the four years he was blighting the White House?


Oh, yeah, maybe because he didn't want to cut off his supply of MAGA hats.

 

[JoeB131]

1. China leads the world in cyber-attacks on the US
2. China's government has allowed it's chemical companies to launch a Fentanyl attack on our country that has resulted in hundreds of thousands of overdoses and POISONINGS.

Um, isn't this our failure to actually address the addiction problem that was created when Big Pharma handed out opioids like Halloween Candy?

China isn't making the Fentanyl, drug labs in Mexico are, with components the Chinese have pledged to better control.

3. The CCP sponsors algorithms and content on TikTok aimed at screwing up American youth which is obviously working very well.

Wow? Seriously?

4. The CCP for decades has violated our trade agreeements

Then we need to negotiate better agreements. Your argument would be fine if it was Chinese companies that are the problem. They aren't. They are American companies using Chinese labor.

5. The CCP with the support of the NIH has conducted dangerous viral research that has resulted in MULTIPLE outbreaks with Covid-19 clearly being the worst. AND THEY ARE STILL DOING IT.

Still haven't proven that Covid came from a lab..

There's more, but that should be enough to shut up the China shills.

If Paranoid conspiracy theories are all you have, then you don't have much.

 

[shockedcanadian]

I have a degree in history. Thanks for asking.



Wow, sounds like Bircher Propaganda. Maybe you should talk to actual Chinese people how they feel about Mao.



I think you are confused. Nobody in Europe liked the Jews all that much, which is why Hitler found people all over Europe willing to turn them in. There were a few countries that resisted, like Denmark. the US didn't really want them, either. That's why they turned away the SS St. Louis.

Now, to the point, the reason why Mao is revered in China today is not because the Chinese just love them some Marxism. China was capitalistic before Europe even had a name for it. Chinese people love money. China had a God of Money. Chinese folks greet each other with "I hope you get rich!"

No, Mao is revered because after a century of China getting bitchslapped by everyone, he turned around and did some bitch-slapping back.




Yeah, this is where you get into the Bircher bullshit. the only way you get to these ridiculously high numbers is if you throw in events like the Great Famine of 1959-62 (which my wife lived through as a baby). Did Mao's policies make that worse? Um, yeah, in the way Trump's policies during Covid made it worse. But it was hardly the first famine that China ever experienced.



Actually, here's the thing. The Chinese are perfectly fine with the kind of government they have. My wife is from China, and she is kind of shocked by the shit that we let go on in this country, such as rampant drug use. She often shows me videos of Chinese court proceedings where they sentence drug smugglers to death. I'm kind of horrified by this, but to Chinese folks, this is acceptable.



Honestly, I don't care all that much. It seems you just want to punish China for beating us at our own game.

If this was such a big deal, why didn't Trump do it in the four years he was blighting the White House?


Oh, yeah, maybe because he didn't want to cut off his supply of MAGA hats.

View attachment 948575

Yes, you buy into the illusion that Mao successfully promoted. He was born into privilege and then in time became the murderer of those who created their own privilege. As you said "capitalism before it had a name". Simple farmers whose wealth was stolen and often much more than just their wealth...

Just who exactly did China "bitch slap back" during Maos reign? The only people who suffered were Chinese citizens.

They were often subjects of Stalin, where even when Stalin welcomed him in Russia they had to wait weeks to sign the Friendship Treaty like a little kid having to sit in the corner until summoned. First he envied Stalins Russia, then they were rivals, then in his old age and very ill he had to embrace their old enemy America when he met Kissinger and Nixon.

Yes, those examples, such as it being viewed as acceptable to murder druggies in China is why people like Mao could arbitrarily murder a couple of million by the gun. It wasn't just policies, these were direct murders by the state and his henchmen would even visit the family members and ask them their thoughts about their decision to execute someone. Shamelessly making family members denounce their family while knowing they were to be executed. Twisting in the knife right to their faces knowing they had the guns and the power. Chicken shyte tactics by chicken shyte people.

Mao and those of his cowardly DNA can go F themselves.

 

[JoeB131]

Did Mao steal your ice cream? Or was the girl you were creeping on dump you for a guy in a Che t-shirt in College.

Yes, you buy into the illusion that Mao successfully promoted. He was born into privilege and then in time became the murderer of those who created their own privilege. As you said "capitalism before it had a name". Simple farmers whose wealth was stolen and often much more than just their wealth...

I think you miss the point of how engrained merchantilism is in the Chinese culture. China was the world's biggest economy until 1850, when it was surpassed by the British Empire. (Which really DID steal much of the world's wealth. Look into what they did to India some time). Then the US supplanted the UK, and now China will surpass the US again... to which I say, so what? My life is no different if I live in the biggest or second biggest economies.

Just who exactly did China "bitch slap back" during Maos reign? The only people who suffered were Chinese citizens.

Well, to start with, the entire UN in Korea. Probably all those big corporations from the west who found their goods seized.

They were often subjects of Stalin, where even when Stalin welcomed him in Russia they had to wait weeks to sign the Friendship Treaty like a little kid having to sit in the corner until summoned. First he envied Stalins Russia, then they were rivals, then in his old age and very ill he had to embrace their old enemy America when he met Kissinger and Nixon.

That's kind of reductionist. What you forget is that Nixon and Kissinger needed China as much as China needed them. You know, the old Vulcan saying, "Only Nixon could go to China!"

Yes, those examples, such as it being viewed as acceptable to murder druggies in China is why people like Mao could arbitrarily murder a couple of million by the gun. It wasn't just policies, these were direct murders by the state and his henchmen would even visit the family members and ask them their thoughts about their decision to execute someone. Shamelessly making family members denounce their family while knowing they were to be executed. Twisting in the knife right to their faces knowing they had the guns and the power. Chicken shyte tactics by chicken shyte people.

OR they recognized that drug users were a drag on society. Let's not forget that the Opium Wars started the Century of Humiliation, and it killed millions more than Mao ever did, striking down peasants to Empresses. (Read about Empress Wanrong, wife of Puyi. Very sad story.) Is it harsh by western standards? Absolutely. But I can walk down the streets of Chengdu at night and be a lot safer than I would be on the streets of Chicago.

Everything in life is a tradeoff.

Mao and those of his cowardly DNA can go F themselves.

See the statement I opened with.

I just can't get worked up about a dictator who died 50 years ago.

 

[shockedcanadian]

Did Mao steal your ice cream? Or was the girl you were creeping on dump you for a guy in a Che t-shirt in College.



I think you miss the point of how engrained merchantilism is in the Chinese culture. China was the world's biggest economy until 1850, when it was surpassed by the British Empire. (Which really DID steal much of the world's wealth. Look into what they did to India some time). Then the US supplanted the UK, and now China will surpass the US again... to which I say, so what? My life is no different if I live in the biggest or second biggest economies.



Well, to start with, the entire UN in Korea. Probably all those big corporations from the west who found their goods seized.



That's kind of reductionist. What you forget is that Nixon and Kissinger needed China as much as China needed them. You know, the old Vulcan saying, "Only Nixon could go to China!"



OR they recognized that drug users were a drag on society. Let's not forget that the Opium Wars started the Century of Humiliation, and it killed millions more than Mao ever did, striking down peasants to Empresses. (Read about Empress Wanrong, wife of Puyi. Very sad story.) Is it harsh by western standards? Absolutely. But I can walk down the streets of Chengdu at night and be a lot safer than I would be on the streets of Chicago.

Everything in life is a tradeoff.


See the statement I opened with.

I just can't get worked up about a dictator who died 50 years ago.

It is not the dictator I get worked up about but his lasting legacy that lingers to this day. Unfortunately, due to greed and naive fools we were fooled into embracing what was not going to ever be and instead of them changing to become more like us, our apparatuses changed to become more like them.

Taiwan are the real Chinese, they were the Nationalists don't forget, for however imperfect and messed up they once were, they are now far closer to us much like Japan. China was given the keys to the vault and slowly but surely the authoritarians couldn't help themselves.

Now we have to draw a line in the sand. WWIII is going to happen. We have to make decisions now to weaken their prospects of success at the future date when this hot war begins we cannot want to sanction and cut them off after they attack Taiwan. Mark my words, it will one day occur. Losing Taiwan would harm the West excessively beyond the chip issue.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

The CCP has everything to do with their history and it's the reason why they've prospered enormously since Mao.

Prior too Mao, the Chinese people suffered outrageous crimes at the hands of outsiders.

Never again! But oddly enough, China has no interest in revenge for the past wrongs of others!

Nor do they have any interest in changing the cultures/governments of those they have business dealings with.

It is a lesson the US should take to heart.

 

[eagle7-31]

The major mistake of USA foreign policy:

Embracing Communist China

The major mistake of USA foreign policy:

Embracing Communist China

Too bad Sun Yat-sen could not lived another 20 or so years. The world would and China would be better off without that mass murdering sociopath Mao and the dimbulb believers of communist propaganda.

 

[LeroyDumonde]

The major mistake of USA foreign policy:

Embracing Communist China

It wasn't a mistake. It was malice towards America.

 

[Mac-7]

Wow, sounds like Bircher Propaganda. Maybe you should talk to actual Chinese people how they feel about Mao.

I have a degree in history. Thanks for asking.



Wow, sounds like Bircher Propaganda. Maybe you should talk to actual Chinese people how they feel about Mao.



I think you are confused. Nobody in Europe liked the Jews all that much, which is why Hitler found people all over Europe willing to turn them in. There were a few countries that resisted, like Denmark. the US didn't really want them, either. That's why they turned away the SS St. Louis.

Now, to the point, the reason why Mao is revered in China today is not because the Chinese just love them some Marxism. China was capitalistic before Europe even had a name for it. Chinese people love money. China had a God of Money. Chinese folks greet each other with "I hope you get rich!"

No, Mao is revered because after a century of China getting bitchslapped by everyone, he turned around and did some bitch-slapping back.




Yeah, this is where you get into the Bircher bullshit. the only way you get to these ridiculously high numbers is if you throw in events like the Great Famine of 1959-62 (which my wife lived through as a baby). Did Mao's policies make that worse? Um, yeah, in the way Trump's policies during Covid made it worse. But it was hardly the first famine that China ever experienced.



Actually, here's the thing. The Chinese are perfectly fine with the kind of government they have. My wife is from China, and she is kind of shocked by the shit that we let go on in this country, such as rampant drug use. She often shows me videos of Chinese court proceedings where they sentence drug smugglers to death. I'm kind of horrified by this, but to Chinese folks, this is acceptable.



Honestly, I don't care all that much. It seems you just want to punish China for beating us at our own game.

If this was such a big deal, why didn't Trump do it in the four years he was blighting the White House?


Oh, yeah, maybe because he didn't want to cut off his supply of MAGA hats.

View attachment 948575

Trump does not have a copyright on MAGA

Official MAGA hats are made in America

 

[Mac-7]

Just who exactly did China "bitch slap back" during Maos reign? The only people who suffered were Chinese citizens.

Exactly

Mao was a curse on the chinese people

 

[JoeB131]

It is not the dictator I get worked up about but his lasting legacy that lingers to this day. Unfortunately, due to greed and naive fools we were fooled into embracing what was not going to ever be and instead of them changing to become more like us, our apparatuses changed to become more like them.

I do think that CHina is probably the world's first "Technocracy"- that people hold their jobs because they are technical experts. As opposed to the US, where from President to School Board, we just elect who is popular and wonder why we get bad results. (Seriously, that ANYONE ever consider Trump to be presidential material horrifies anyone with a brain.)

That said. China isn't our problem. They aren't doing anything to bother us.

Taiwan are the real Chinese, they were the Nationalists don't forget, for however imperfect and messed up they once were, they are now far closer to us much like Japan. China was given the keys to the vault and slowly but surely the authoritarians couldn't help themselves.

The only reason why Taiwan exists is because we propped it up for decades to keep China's UN vote out of the hands of the Commies. If China takes Taiwan, it's JUST NOT MY PROBLEM.

Now we have to draw a line in the sand. WWIII is going to happen. We have to make decisions now to weaken their prospects of success at the future date when this hot war begins we cannot want to sanction and cut them off after they attack Taiwan. Mark my words, it will one day occur. Losing Taiwan would harm the West excessively beyond the chip issue.

Or we can come to some realizations.

1) Taiwan isn't worth starting a nuclear armageddon over.
2) China probably won't invade Taiwan because Taiwan and China are economically dependent on each other. Taiwan's imports to the PRC and Hong Kong are 32% of it's total economy.
3) China is not Nazi Germany. Sorry, it just isn't.
4) Whether we like it or not, we need China and China needs us.

Trump does not have a copyright on MAGA

Official MAGA hats are made in America

Oh, come on, anyone who made MAGA hats in America were probably stiffed by Trump.

 

[shockedcanadian]

I do think that CHina is probably the world's first "Technocracy"- that people hold their jobs because they are technical experts. As opposed to the US, where from President to School Board, we just elect who is popular and wonder why we get bad results. (Seriously, that ANYONE ever consider Trump to be presidential material horrifies anyone with a brain.)

That said. China isn't our problem. They aren't doing anything to bother us.



The only reason why Taiwan exists is because we propped it up for decades to keep China's UN vote out of the hands of the Commies. If China takes Taiwan, it's JUST NOT MY PROBLEM.



Or we can come to some realizations.

1) Taiwan isn't worth starting a nuclear armageddon over.
2) China probably won't invade Taiwan because Taiwan and China are economically dependent on each other. Taiwan's imports to the PRC and Hong Kong are 32% of it's total economy.
3) China is not Nazi Germany. Sorry, it just isn't.
4) Whether we like it or not, we need China and China needs us.


Oh, come on, anyone who made MAGA hats in America were probably stiffed by Trump.

Really, the U.S needs China? How so?

 

[JoeB131]

Really, the U.S needs China? How so?

The last two jobs I've had in manufacturing relied heavily on economical Chinese components.

 

[shockedcanadian]

The last two jobs I've had in manufacturing relied heavily on economical Chinese components.

So what if they were manufactured in Vietnam or Cambodia? Would the U.S be less in "need" of China?

Chinese don't consume, Americans do. More and more when they do consume, it is along nationalistic lines. Thus, CHINA needs America not the other way around.

 

[there4eyeM]

"Embracing" China as it is can have more than one sense. There could be a very constructive, long-term relationship that avoids conflict without surrender. It would be a mistake to innocently "embrace" the C.C.P. It would be a mistake to belligerently confront it.
Short-sighted economic practices in the West were exploited by Chinese policies. They are clever, not "evil", which is, after all, a term best reserved for theology than politics. We cannot blame them for the stupidity of those competing with them.
Nixon and Kissinger accepted some realities of world politics. It was not necessarily genius on their part.

 

[Mac-7]

I do think that CHina is probably the world's first "Technocracy"- that people hold their jobs because they are technical experts. As opposed to the US, where from President to School Board, we just elect who is popular and wonder why we get bad results. (Seriously, that ANYONE ever consider Trump to be presidential material horrifies anyone with a brain.)

That said. China isn't our problem. They aren't doing anything to bother us.



The only reason why Taiwan exists is because we propped it up for decades to keep China's UN vote out of the hands of the Commies. If China takes Taiwan, it's JUST NOT MY PROBLEM.



Or we can come to some realizations.

1) Taiwan isn't worth starting a nuclear armageddon over.
2) China probably won't invade Taiwan because Taiwan and China are economically dependent on each other. Taiwan's imports to the PRC and Hong Kong are 32% of it's total economy.
3) China is not Nazi Germany. Sorry, it just isn't.
4) Whether we like it or not, we need China and China needs us.


Oh, come on, anyone who made MAGA hats in America were probably stiffed by Trump.

Oh, come on, anyone who made MAGA hats in America were probably stiffed by Trump.

Do you ever not TDS?

 

[JoeB131]

So what if they were manufactured in Vietnam or Cambodia? Would the U.S be less in "need" of China?

Chinese don't consume, Americans do. More and more when they do consume, it is along nationalistic lines. Thus, CHINA needs America not the other way around.

well, you keep telling yourself that.

Trump's idiotic tariffs contributed to the recession of 2020 just as much as Covid.

 

[JoeB131]

Oh, come on, anyone who made MAGA hats in America were probably stiffed by Trump.

Do you ever not TDS?

USA TODAY exclusive: Hundreds allege Donald Trump doesn’t pay his bills

Among those who say billionaire didn't pay: dishwashers, painters, waiters

www.usatoday.com

 

[Unkotare]

Intellectuals on the right assumed that doing business with communist china would undermine the CCP and capitalism and western style democracy would replace communism

But that didnt happen

...

Yet.